Are we being unfair to our young talent?

[scutterhawk]

Was this forum around in 2000?
There were probably people clambering to cut Shaun Alexander after his rookie season too.

Hell, Marshawn Lynch only averaged 3.5 ypc in his first season here. Even the first half of the 2011 season had some real stinkers - like 24 yards on 16 carries against the Bengals.

LOL, We only measure a player by his successes, not his failures.

 

[Scorpion05]

Penny is a #1 pick, and whether or not it's fair, he's going to be judged based on expectations of first round draft choice. So far, he's been a disappointment. One of the expectations of a #1 draft choice is that they be a starter by their 2nd season. Not his fault that our coaches made a bad decision taking him where they did, but he and his apologists are going to have to live with that fact so long as he's a member of our team.

'queem Griffin is on the bubble. There's probably more competition at LB than at any other position group. His experience on special teams could help him hold onto a roster spot.

Huge different between a top 10 pick, and a late first round pick. Penny, you can argue has already contributed at an NFL level for a late first round pick. It is completely false to argue that he's expected to be a stud right away because he was selected in the first round. He's expected to show flashes and make some big plays in his rookie year, which is exactly what he did.

And in reality, not all first round picks develop immediately. NFL development isn't black and white, and fans should think so black and white

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Penny is a #1 pick, and whether or not it's fair, he's going to be judged based on expectations of first round draft choice. So far, he's been a disappointment. One of the expectations of a #1 draft choice is that they be a starter by their 2nd season. Not his fault that our coaches made a bad decision taking him where they did, but he and his apologists are going to have to live with that fact so long as he's a member of our team.

'queem Griffin is on the bubble. There's probably more competition at LB than at any other position group. His experience on special teams could help him hold onto a roster spot.

Huge different between a top 10 pick, and a late first round pick. Penny, you can argue has already contributed at an NFL level for a late first round pick. It is completely false to argue that he's expected to be a stud right away because he was selected in the first round. He's expected to show flashes and make some big plays in his rookie year, which is exactly what he did.

And in reality, not all first round picks develop immediately. NFL development isn't black and white, and fans should think so black and white

There's also a shorter leash of expectations with RB's picked in the first round.

If you pick a RB in the first round, he better damn well ball out from game #1..........and Penny hasn't. Is that fair? Idk, maybe we drafted him too high, no one would be all over him if he was a 2nd or 3rd round pick like many thought was his true place in the draft.

But he wasn't. Thus these sorts of conversations.

 

[AgentDib]

If you pick a RB in the first round, he better damn well ball out from game #1..........and Penny hasn't. Is that fair? Idk, maybe we drafted him too high, no one would be all over him if he was a 2nd or 3rd round pick like many thought was his true place in the draft.

Does the following chart help you determine whether it's fair or not?


Lumping Penny and Barkely together into the same "first round RB" category is a poor simplification that only obscures the truth. There's almost no difference between the #32 and #33 pick in terms of draft capital and salary, with the only real difference being a benefit to the #32 pick in terms of a potential 5th year option.

 

[RiverDog]

If you pick a RB in the first round, he better damn well ball out from game #1..........and Penny hasn't. Is that fair? Idk, maybe we drafted him too high, no one would be all over him if he was a 2nd or 3rd round pick like many thought was his true place in the draft.

Does the following chart help you determine whether it's fair or not?


Lumping Penny and Barkely together into the same "first round RB" category is a poor simplification that only obscures the truth. There's almost no difference between the #32 and #33 pick in terms of draft capital and salary, with the only real difference being a benefit to the #32 pick in terms of a potential 5th year option.

l

No one was lumping Penny and Barkley together. Any association between them occurred naturally as a consequence of their draft position. The point is that any player that is the team's top draft choice is going to be expected to make some significant contributions, and understanding that it's still early, Penny has yet to make those kinds of contributions.

Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic that Penny will ever live up to those lofty, first round expectations simply because he's in a spot where he's playing behind a better player and at a position that's relatively low value.

 

[Ad Hawk]

No one was lumping Penny and Barkley together. Any association between them occurred naturally as a consequence of their draft position. The point is that any player that is the team's top draft choice is going to be expected to make some significant contributions, and understanding that it's still early, Penny has yet to make those kinds of contributions.

Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic that Penny will ever live up to those lofty, first round expectations simply because he's in a spot where he's playing behind a better player and at a position that's relatively low value.

Your argument is sound.

The weakness here, then, is the power of your own expectations to ruin Penny in your eyes; and nothing else. Maybe changing expectations would help you enjoy the season a bit more, and Penny's play, too. It costs nothing. :2thumbs:

 

[xray]

And if they get injured, cut them immediately :stirthepot:

Nope...if they get injured keep them until their contract is up at full pay. CJ come to mind. Now that's a fantasy football player .

Full pay on a rookie deal is barely anything. You're not addressing the issue you're trying to make a point about

Rookie deals exceed many working people's income for 20 years . But that's barely anything to you ?

 

[Scorpion05]

@MontanaHawk05 Tedric is more often than not in position. Pete doesn't want his Free Safeties taking too many risks. The fact of the matter is, Tedric holds down the position at a very solid level. Elite? Of course not. But we're really taking things for granted if we're complaining about him. What you hope for with MOST of your players, especially on defense is that you don't hear their names too often negatively. That's usually the sign of solid play in coverage

@Sgt. Largent Again, I think that's a gross overstatement. We have a really deluded view of draft picks as fans, not just our fans, but fans across the league.

If an NFL team can get a QUALITY starter in the first round, that's great. A star? Even better. There's maybe 2 or 3 bonafide stars in the 1st round every year, and some of them have great rookie seasons then fizzle out. Others break out down the road.

And with Penny, you can't even argue that he's had two or three good plays. In truth, he's had several in spots. Take a look at 0:40, or at 3:25(inside run for 5 yards), or even his one handed catch at 3:48. That's a talented, shifty RB in space with home run ability.

[youtube]rBJE-YDR4GY[/youtube]

Even looking at the video below, his inside run at 1:39, or his toss sweep at 1:54, that's elite quickness and deceptive football speed. Carson can't do that. Or at 2:27. His ability to move in space without losing too much speed is very underrated.

[youtube]zw0DRSi5t9s[/youtube]

This forum is literally wasting all day critiquing him as a power back, rather than as a Christian McCaffrey, Alvin Kamara type back. Which is what he is. Carson cannot catch like him, or run routes like him, or move in space like him. Let's actually critique him logically

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If you pick a RB in the first round, he better damn well ball out from game #1..........and Penny hasn't. Is that fair? Idk, maybe we drafted him too high, no one would be all over him if he was a 2nd or 3rd round pick like many thought was his true place in the draft.

Does the following chart help you determine whether it's fair or not?


Lumping Penny and Barkely together into the same "first round RB" category is a poor simplification that only obscures the truth. There's almost no difference between the #32 and #33 pick in terms of draft capital and salary, with the only real difference being a benefit to the #32 pick in terms of a potential 5th year option.

I wasn't lumping a top 5 1st round pick with a back end 1st round pick.

I'm saying that if you have a lot of needs on your roster, and we had a LOT of needs on our roster......picking a RB, a position you can easily find great value in later on in the draft? That RB better produce, and produce right away.

But I get it, I don't blame Pete and John. If your entire offensive identify is based on having a punishing run game, then you can't depend on a back coming off a major leg injury as Carson was.

Now in hindsight? I doubt they pull that trigger. But you can't criticize in a vacuum.

 

[McGruff]

I cant find the info via simple google search.

What are the inside rushing averages for Carson and Penny?

 

[chris98251]

Well Barkley wasn't injured for most of training camp and also was not having to climb the depth chart afterwards with a guy like Carson in front of him, but as long as were comparing apples to Watermelons.

 

[RiverDog]

No one was lumping Penny and Barkley together. Any association between them occurred naturally as a consequence of their draft position. The point is that any player that is the team's top draft choice is going to be expected to make some significant contributions, and understanding that it's still early, Penny has yet to make those kinds of contributions.

Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic that Penny will ever live up to those lofty, first round expectations simply because he's in a spot where he's playing behind a better player and at a position that's relatively low value.

Your argument is sound.

The weakness here, then, is the power of your own expectations to ruin Penny in your eyes; and nothing else. Maybe changing expectations would help you enjoy the season a bit more, and Penny's play, too. It costs nothing. :2thumbs:

Why do you think that I won't enjoy the season if I exercise my right as an armchair quarterback?

And it's not just my expectations. IMO most fans and coaches expect a #1 draft pick to be a starter by Year 2, do they not?

 

[scutterhawk]

No one was lumping Penny and Barkley together. Any association between them occurred naturally as a consequence of their draft position. The point is that any player that is the team's top draft choice is going to be expected to make some significant contributions, and understanding that it's still early, Penny has yet to make those kinds of contributions.

Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic that Penny will ever live up to those lofty, first round expectations simply because he's in a spot where he's playing behind a better player and at a position that's relatively low value.

Your argument is sound.

The weakness here, then, is the power of your own expectations to ruin Penny in your eyes; and nothing else. Maybe changing expectations would help you enjoy the season a bit more, and Penny's play, too. It costs nothing. :2thumbs:

Why do you think that I won't enjoy the season if I exercise my right as an armchair quarterback?

And it's not just my expectations. IMO most fans and coaches expect a #1 draft pick to be a starter by Year 2, do they not?

Penny would have had to take it away from Carson...By some of y'alls logic, Pete should maybe have just parked Carson's butt on the pine pony, and GIVE Penny most of the work load ?
The Seahawks gave Flynn 10 mil. , maybe they screwed up by giving Russell Wilson (Y'know..the guy that proved he was the best choice @ Quarterback)

 

[Uncle Si]

And if they get injured, cut them immediately :stirthepot:

Nope...if they get injured keep them until their contract is up at full pay. CJ come to mind. Now that's a fantasy football player .

Full pay on a rookie deal is barely anything. You're not addressing the issue you're trying to make a point about

Rookie deals exceed many working people's income for 20 years . But that's barely anything to you ?

There is no comparison between professional sports and the real world.

 

[Tical21]

I cant find the info via simple google search.

What are the inside rushing averages for Carson and Penny?

I saw somewhere yesterday where Penny was like 3.6 inside and 8.3 outside. No clue on Carson.

 

[Fade]

For a guy who has elite shiftiness, he sure does get taken down way too often by the first tackler.

Penny needs to do something this year or he is a bust. He is not 3rd on the depth chart anymore, he is going to get plenty of opportunities as the #2.

The value of taking runningbacks in the 1st round is that they are supposed to be instant impact players, that is what an NFL team is saying, because star runningbacks can be found consistently in the 3rd round, and beyond. They grown on trees compared to other positions. Taking a runningback in the 1st round is a big statement.

Runningback is one of the most straightforward positions in the NFL, either you have it, or you don't.

If the Seahawks had a mulligan they would not have taken him I surmise.

 

[xray]

For a guy who has elite shiftiness, he sure does get taken down way too often by the first tackler.

Penny needs to do something this year or he is a bust. He is not 3rd on the depth chart anymore, he is going to get plenty of opportunities as the #2.

The value of taking runningbacks in the 1st round is that they are supposed to be instant impact players, that is what an NFL team is saying, because star runningbacks can be found consistently in the 3rd round, and beyond. They grown on trees compared to other positions. Taking a runningback in the 1st round is a big statement.

Runningback is one of the most straightforward positions in the NFL, either you have it, or you don't.

If the Seahawks had a mulligan they would not have taken him I surmise.

Right now ; it appears that every eligible RB on the squad can outperform Penny . The FO must be desperate for him to somehow prove they made the right decision taking him as their 1st round pick . The good news is that Travis Homer can and probably will step right over and into Penny's spot if needed .

 

[Scorpion05]

For a guy who has elite shiftiness, he sure does get taken down way too often by the first tackler.

Penny needs to do something this year or he is a bust. He is not 3rd on the depth chart anymore, he is going to get plenty of opportunities as the #2.

The value of taking runningbacks in the 1st round is that they are supposed to be instant impact players, that is what an NFL team is saying, because star runningbacks can be found consistently in the 3rd round, and beyond. They grown on trees compared to other positions. Taking a runningback in the 1st round is a big statement.

Runningback is one of the most straightforward positions in the NFL, either you have it, or you don't.

If the Seahawks had a mulligan they would not have taken him I surmise.

And like MacCaffrey he typically makes defenders miss instead. We don't need him to be a bruiser.

No matter how often people repeat this narrative about 1st round picks, RB or not. Most are not instant impact, stars in the 1st year are an anomaly. Players often break out in their 2nd or 3rd year

 

[RiverDog]

And it's not just my expectations. IMO most fans and coaches expect a #1 draft pick to be a starter by Year 2, do they not?

Penny would have had to take it away from Carson...By some of y'alls logic, Pete should maybe have just parked Carson's butt on the pine pony, and GIVE Penny most of the work load ?

The Seahawks gave Flynn 10 mil. , maybe they screwed up by giving Russell Wilson (Y'know..the guy that proved he was the best choice @ Quarterback)

That's not the option anyone's been talking about. Everyone agrees that Carson is the better back.

The option was that in retrospect (hindsight being 20/20), perhaps Pete shouldn't have taken Penny with a first round selection.

 

[Mad Dog]

Carson was and remains an injury risk. Drafting an RB was not a bad idea given some past years where we've had street FA's carrying the rock.

The problem may be that Penny isn't as good as his stats and may not be a wise choice in retrospect. He has elite athleticism, but running still comes down to vision. Rawls had trouble figuring the whole patience and vision thing. Hope Penny doesn't follow that same path.

Time will tell. Lynch wasn't all that for a number of seasons until it finally clicked for him. Sometimes it takes a bit of time.