Archie Manning

[RolandDeschain]

You get supreme compensation for sacrificing your body and it's a personal choice to do so. Give me a break. Firemen, policemen, soldiers, etc. risk more, and get WAY less in return. Do you think they're all just stupid chumps comparatively then, or something?

Also, the hypocrisy of me being forced to remove 2-minute-long clips when some people have entire commercial-free games on there for YEARS is the main reason I was so pissed about it. I strongly dislike double standards.

IN regards to the breaking his neck thing, that wouldn't be fair to the player, no; that is INCREDIBLY rare, and you knew the risks when you sign up. Do you also think it's alright for soldiers to complain about getting injured in war when they signed up for the army? Is it alright for doctors to complain about the cost of malpractice insurance and working 30-hour shifts when they elected to go into that field?

Come on.

I do agree with your assessment of yourself that you're pretty consistent in your views, but none of us ever knows for sure about extreme scenarios if they never come to fruition. I suspect you'd not be EXACTLY this calm about it if it happened against the Seahawks, but that's just a suspicion on my part, don't take it personally.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

I don't get all the hate on the Mannings for what they did about the draft. Elway did the same damn thing and no one really ever brings that up.

Also I get Rolands point but at the same time if a team is clearly dysfunctional and you are a player with that type of leverage, why not use it? Teams use every ounce of leverage they have every chance they get.

I also remember Arian Foster pretty much told us he didn't want to play here. He doesn't get any heat for it.

I could be mistaken, but I thought the A. Foster thing came down to him just having a bad attitude on the phone when the Hawks called him on the phone to say they were going to draft him in one of the later rounds (6th or 7th?) and b/c he was upset, the Hawks mistakenly took that as disinterest. Did he really come out and say he didn't want to play in Seattle?

 

[RolandDeschain]

Cali, the NFL is not a free market. It's one league, with no competition. You can't threaten to go to another top-notch league and still make insane money like you can in soccer. Players know what they're signing up for when they apply to be eligible to be drafted, or sign with a team as an undrafted free agent.

Also, let's not forget that when Eli did this, high 1st-round picks were making insane money for not even ever having played. Talk about feeling entitled.

 

[pehawk]

I know they get paid a lot. That doesn't matter though, we all want fair market value. And, I'd complain a lot less if the NFL had guaranteed contracts. Right now owners don't have to show any commitment to a player if he breaks a leg and never plays again. That's not fair market when compared to the NHL, MLB or NBA.

 

[RolandDeschain]

NFL owners show commitment to the fans. (To an extent. Believe me, I know money talks and BS walks, I'm not naive.) Having all/most of every player's salary guaranteed with a salary cap-based system like the NFL has would cripple franchises that have a string of bad luck with injuries.

Part of the allure of the NFL for a lot of people is the fact that every single year, some teams that were crappy for at least a few years turn it around. Things always get shaken up.

 

[pehawk]

NFL owners show commitment to the fans. (To an extent. Believe me, I know money talks and BS walks, I'm not naive.) Having all/most of every player's salary guaranteed with a salary cap-based system like the NFL has would cripple franchises that have a string of bad luck with injuries.

Part of the allure of the NFL for a lot of people is the fact that every single year, some teams that were crappy for at least a few years turn it around. Things always get shaken up.

Yeah, and the price to achieve that is pro athletes who have the worst labor deal. That's why I said its not a black and white issue. I'll always side with someone's right to do what they want, even if it means acting like an ass and not playing for SD. If the owners have the right to run their league like that, the players have a right to use whatever leverage they may have.

Its not black and white.

 

[CPHawk]

Archie wasn't even a know player to most of us born after he played. Really the only reason anyone talks about his is thanks to his sons. I imagine if you asked a 20 yo from say Dallas if he knew anything about Dave Kreig. He might know the name, but nothing else.

 

[DTexHawk]

You get supreme compensation for sacrificing your body and it's a personal choice to do so. Give me a break. Firemen, policemen, soldiers, etc. risk more, and get WAY less in return. Do you think they're all just stupid chumps comparatively then, or something?

No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

Roland, it's tough to draw comparisons to this with Policeman, Fireman, etc. That's appealing to more of a sense of emotion and perhaps more serves to derail the conversation - especially since you assumed the worst with a tacit accusation that those professions are unworthy comparatively. I really hate when people do that b/c it's a tactic used to get someone to cave b/c it's an attempt at guilt by association. No one said that.

I think what you're trying to get at (and which I agree with)... is gratefulness. You seem to be saying, at least on some level, that players like Eli Manning (and his family) should be grateful for the opportunity. But, it isn't a case to suggest they were being ungrateful for the opportunity to have an issue with just one particular situation they would rather not get into (and they were prepared to sit out if that was forced upon them.) That doesn't necessarily mean they felt entitled.

I know we all look to use logic to build our case. But, we often bring assumptions and personal feelings into our logic which doesn't really achieve clarity. That's projecting accusations on the Mannings in this case. I agree with the post that leverage was in their corner. Not all players are going to have that leverage. The Mannings were simply in a position to exercise that leverage. A 7th round draft choice isn't going to have that luxury, of course. But, it's an unfair assessment to project upon a family that they are ungrateful just because they have leverage.

 

[ClumsyLurk]

Do you also think it's alright for soldiers to complain about getting injured in war when they signed up for the army? Is it alright for doctors to complain about the cost of malpractice insurance and working 30-hour shifts when they elected to go into that field?

With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

Archie wasn't even a know player to most of us born after he played. Really the only reason anyone talks about his is thanks to his sons. I imagine if you asked a 20 yo from say Dallas if he knew anything about Dave Kreig. He might know the name, but nothing else.

There's lots of players in the history of the game fans should know about. Archie Manning ushered in a new type of QB. Players like him have made their mark on the game and contributed to the evolution of the game. While their comparative talent may be debated, it's unnecessary to dismiss their contributions - especially if you really know little about him. Having watched him play and learning more following the game for nearly 40 years... Archie Manning is a player that made a mark and should be remembered. Yes, because of his sons success, his playing days gets more attention... as it should.

 

[RolandDeschain]

No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.

People at the top of their game, (i.e. all starting NFL players) virtually always have increased risks. It's part of being at the top; bigger risks, bigger rewards. If you accept a promotion to be the CEO of your company, same situation. Pressure's on, if things don't work well you can be fired very quickly and disgraced, etc. The top of pretty much any profession has increased risks, culpability, potential rewards, etc.

 

[pehawk]

No comparison between professional athletes and firemen, policemen, etc...

What percentage of the population can be a professional athlete? Career spans 3-4 years in football, most other athletes retire prior to 30-35 years old.

What percentage of the population can be firemen, policemen, etc...? Careers can be 30 years. And no, they are not stupid chumps, it's market driven.

People at the top of their game, (i.e. all starting NFL players) virtually always have increased risks. It's part of being at the top; bigger risks, bigger rewards. If you accept a promotion to be the CEO of your company, same situation. Pressure's on, if things don't work well you can be fired very quickly and disgraced, etc. The top of pretty much any profession has increased risks, culpability, potential rewards, etc.

Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?

 

[RolandDeschain]

With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.

Provide some evidence to support your assertion. Both are for-profit industries. One is for entertainment, the other is primarily to fix ailments and illnesses, but look at the salaries some top doctors of oncology and such make. Football is not a game, it's a business that profits from entertaining people. Night clubs, ice skating arenas, paintball courses, etc. all fall under that as well. We like to think of pro sports as being more, and in some ways they are, but they are still BUSINESSES that exist to make a profit. Just like private hospitals. Doctors become doctors to "help people" just like lawyers become lawyers to fight for injustice. (Namely, the vast majority don't.)

 

[RolandDeschain]

Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?

Right. You don't have that power in the NFL. The Chargers decided to just get rid of Eli rather than punish him/deal with the consequences, that doesn't mean he's allowed to do what he did. Blackmail is typically illegal. 32 possible teams, all in the same league. As I said before, FAR more akin to different positions in the same company than different companies; or different offices around the country/world working for the same corporation.

 

[pehawk]

Or, you can choose to work for a similar company with a more understanding CEO. And/or less pressure?

Right. You don't have that power in the NFL. The Chargers decided to just get rid of Eli rather than punish him/deal with the consequences, that doesn't mean he's allowed to do what he did. Blackmail is typically illegal. 32 possible teams, all in the same league. As I said before, FAR more akin to different positions in the same company than different companies; or different offices around the country/world working for the same corporation.

How is that blackmail? Talk about using extremes to paint your argument.

Where did you fall on Michael Robinson? All he did is perform, better than expected, and he got asked to take a pay cut. A Pro Bowl season got rewarded with a paycut. He signed a contract, out preformed it, and the owners and team decided to reward that loyalty by asking he take a paycut. Based on what you say here, the team should honor their contract, right?

 

[ClumsyLurk]

With all due respesct - I think it's odd to compare the defense/medical field with entertainment. Bloodlust aside - football is supposed to be a game whereas war & helping the sick/maimed are necessary facets of life.

Provide some evidence to support your assertion. Both are for-profit industries. One is for entertainment, the other is primarily to fix ailments and illnesses, but look at the salaries some top doctors of oncology and such make. Football is not a game, it's a business that profits from entertaining people. Night clubs, ice skating arenas, paintball courses, etc. all fall under that as well. We like to think of pro sports as being more, and in some ways they are, but they are still BUSINESSES that exist to make a profit. Just like private hospitals. Doctors become doctors to "help people" just like lawyers become lawyers to fight for injustice. (Namely, the vast majority don't.)

I didn't say that the medical industry was not for proffit nor a business. I was merely trying to imply that they are necessary services for the good of the public. If it came down to entertainment we'd be paying TV doctors more than real doctors and terry schiavo would have been a sequel to the notebook.

 

[RolandDeschain]

It IS blackmail, and that is not extreme. You enter into an agreement when you sign paperwork to apply for draft eligibility. You're promising your services to the team that drafts you. What, you think you're not locked into the team that drafts you? Why don't see good players demanding trades to elite teams every week, then?

If you work for an IT consulting company and you get assigned to do a 4-month contract for a company you don't like, you can't just go to your boss and refuse to do that contract and insist upon a different one. (You can try, but in most cases, good luck; not happening.) Same situation. What, because it's football, it's different? Go read the CBA, including the contract. You can find them here, along with 5 surprising things about NFL contracts most people don't know: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/5-c ... e-you.html

The difference with M-Rob, and every other NFL player, is that they are bound by the rules of the NFL. Things happen that aren't fair. Most employment contracts with virtually any company you can name also contain disclaimers saying they can fire you at will. Things happen all the time for everyone in life that aren't fair. It's not fair that the refs screwed us in Super Bowl XL, but it still happened and we had to deal with it.

My point was never that things are supposed to be fair and even. That's not reality; that's not life.

 

[pehawk]

So, let me get this straight, when a NFL team doesn't honor a contract it's "life"? When they use leverage its "life...tough luck". But, when a player uses leverage, like Eli, they should be suspended? Really?

I'm not the one making this black and white, I understand full well it's reality. Which is why I'm saying if a NFL team has a right to force a paycut a player has the right to use their leverage. I think this proves my point, this is all about jealousy over salary.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Why do you think the NFL should be exempt from that power, as the employer, when virtually no other employers are, all the way from Burger King to Microsoft?