A thought about " Culture "

Sun Tzu

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He was definitely elite by almost any metric used to quantify it so I’ll agree to disagree.
No. He was never elite at any point in his career.

Pick ANY set of metrics you want, and no matter how hard you try to cherry-pick those metrics, there is no way to do the mental gymnastics necessary to establish elite status for RW. The only way to argue that RW was elite is to lower the bar for "elite". If you want to define elite as a top-10 quarterback of a generation, then yes RW was elite. That is an incredibly WEAK bar for elite.

If you want to argue that RW was very good for several seasons, I'll concede, yes he was very good. The talking heads and RW's PR team manufactured the narrative that he was elite. However, there was no time in RW's career that the football minds (true analysts, coaches, and GMs) viewed RW as elite. There is a reason that he never received an MVP vote, even in his best year.
 

scutterhawk

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Luke on culture change from 2013 to 2021, starts at 1:14:14



Talks about players being sloppy and undisciplined and everybody laughs about it and DGAF. NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

"Worst practice I have ever seen"

"I went home that night and I'm like 'This team sucks, and the culture is awful'".

Paraphrased: If we had this in 2013-15 we would have had a players only meeting and been pissed and held ourselves accountable. In 2021 everybody was all happy and smiling and having a great time even though they were all half-assing it and sucking.

"A team that don't care about winning. It's all about selfish agendas".

Like many here, he gives huge props to PC for.the culture he built. He also gives you his perspective as a player on how the culture devolved into toxicity by 2021. He retired because the culture in 2021 was horrendous.

Some of those players dismissed, or downplayed the impact that the Culture Pete was employing, and it will come back to bite them on the ass, because NOT MANY other Coaches down the line, are going to let them get away with horseassing around.
The 'Better/Best You' is untapped & still unfinished, you just don't realize it yet...Don't wait 'til it's too late.
The more you're open to nuances & learning, the more you realize how much you've yet to learn.
What's worse, because of the grueling pace at which they're living, their window of opportunity doesn't stay open for very long.
 
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keasley45

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No. He was never elite at any point in his career.

Pick ANY set of metrics you want, and no matter how hard you try to cherry-pick those metrics, there is no way to do the mental gymnastics necessary to establish elite status for RW. The only way to argue that RW was elite is to lower the bar for "elite". If you want to define elite as a top-10 quarterback of a generation, then yes RW was elite. That is an incredibly WEAK bar for elite.

If you want to argue that RW was very good for several seasons, I'll concede, yes he was very good. The talking heads and RW's PR team manufactured the narrative that he was elite. However, there was no time in RW's career that the football minds (true analysts, coaches, and GMs) viewed RW as elite. There is a reason that he never received an MVP vote, even in his best year.
I think I agree with this but the reason it's so divisive an issue is that his skill and his ability to actually play qb are two vastly different things.

If a player can't read complex defenses, struggles to see the field, and routinely misses protection adjustments, it's hard to define them as elite.

However if that player has an elite skillset that allows him to overcome those basic qb'ing deficiencies, he can play at a high level... and sometimes, by virtue of the effort it takes in overcoming those deficiencies, seem elite.

But the 'elite' tag has a * next to it.

It's like K Warner said. 'Playing QB does t have to be this hard'

Shoot it's like Payton said this year after the Commanders game ... to basically stop talking to him about a PI non call... the play was supposed to go to the other wr and he was open...

There's not a single bona-fide 'elite' qb who's game can so easily, systematically and consistently be broken down to show multiple failures to play the position well. Russ provides literally hours of that sort of experience every season.

RW had an ELITE ability at the position that allowed him to succeed at a high level.

But Elite QB? He managed to assemble 'elite' stats. But his stats last year were pretty good to, but was he playing the position well? Nope. If he had, the Broncos brass would be breathing a sigh of relief right now at knowing their ELITE money wasn't wasted.
 

bigcc

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Luke was awesome in person and seemed like a great guy football aside.
He's a great personality for sure, the fascination as a player just never really struck me

I thought the Bobo hype was annoying at first too but I think there might actually be something there, idk unpopular opinion I know, but him blaming the "culture" for his reason for retiring is laughable
 

pittpnthrs

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How'd Wilson do when he went to a team with better overall talent that was just a QB away from competing?

How'd Pete do in a rebuilding year after Wilson left?

RW was holding the team back for years. Pete's biggest failure as a coach was hanging onto RW and allowing RW to undermine the team.

Pete hovered around .500 just like the rest of his NFL career without Wilson. Wilson was good enough for an automatic 10 to 12 wins every year in his prime. Wins that Pete never sniffed without him.
 

pittpnthrs

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RW was never elite. At his best, he was above average and propped up by a great team around him.

Good lord. He was always a top 5 QB and the teams from 2015 on were anything but great.
 

pittpnthrs

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I brought up the only two seasons of football without Wilson since drafting him, and the season directly before it as a comparison, and mentioning the broncos because it's the only other place he's played.

Didn't realize one year was enough for such a drastic drop off, Yikes

In 2021 he regressed a lot. I was guilty of believing he would bounce back from that, but was wrong. He was done. His last three years are a very small example regarding the rest of his stellar career.
 

pittpnthrs

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I'm not cherry picking anything, I just think it's absolutely ludicrous to bag on Pete

Without Wilson as his QB, he has always been a .500 coach as his last two years indicated.
 

JPatera76

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Culture and Compete, Pete clarified during an interview of his press I believe that when he talked about compete, he said not against or with your teammates but with yourself, pushing yourself COMPETE with yourself and challenge YOURSELF. Looking in the mirror and competing with the person looking back at you.
 

fenderbender123

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I want the "football is the most important thing in the world" culture back that Pete preached 10+ years ago.

If a player cares more about their safety, go play somewhere else.

If a player cares more about their wife and kids, go play somewhere else.

If a player cares more about living the good life with their big contract, go play somewhere else.

If I was head coach, I wouldn't even allow players to have kids. If you have a kid, you're fired. Too much of a distraction. Is that legal? I know some loopholes, so it would work.
 

bigcc

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Pete hovered around .500 just like the rest of his NFL career without Wilson. Wilson was good enough for an automatic 10 to 12 wins every year in his prime. Wins that Pete never sniffed without him.

OK? And those were Pete's prime years too, after he established the team.

Wilson without pete 11-19

Pete without russ 32-34

Worth noting that's 4 seasons for Pete, first two in seattle, and last two over 70 years old

Oh and, season before Pete came 5-11,jumped to 7-9, season before russ broncos 7-10, season with russ 4-11

But yeah, we're talking about prime I guess for russ only, wonder why

It's ok to admit someone is washed, but I'm not going to sit here and read people hate on Pete like russ carried him on his back
 

bigcc

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In 2021 he regressed a lot. I was guilty of believing he would bounce back from that, but was wrong. He was done. His last three years are a very small example regarding the rest of his stellar career.
I've said repeatedly that I think russ is a borderline HOF qb, I think that's a pretty fair assessment, reason I keep arguing with you is that I think Pete is too and for some reason you seem extremely opposed to it

I don't think one works without the other
 

pittpnthrs

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OK? And those were Pete's prime years too, after he established the team.

Wilson without pete 11-19

Pete without russ 32-34

Worth noting that's 4 seasons for Pete, first two in seattle, and last two over 70 years old

Oh and, season before Pete came 5-11,jumped to 7-9, season before russ broncos 7-10, season with russ 4-11

But yeah, we're talking about prime I guess for russ only, wonder why

It's ok to admit someone is washed, but I'm not going to sit here and read people hate on Pete like russ carried him on his back

I admitted Russ was done. He was done before he went to Denver hence I don't know why you continue to use it as your measuring stick. The teams from 2015 on weren't what I would call established. Those teams were unraveling and inconsistent throughout the roster. It's just odd that Pete never obtained anything much more than .500 without Russ in his NFL career.
 

pittpnthrs

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I've said repeatedly that I think russ is a borderline HOF qb, I think that's a pretty fair assessment, reason I keep arguing with you is that I think Pete is too and for some reason you seem extremely opposed to it

I don't think one works without the other

Oh I think Pete will wear a gold jacket at some point. Not arguing that. I just think he fell by the wayside some years ago in an ever changing league. And you might be right, maybe they needed each other. That's not how I see it, but neither of us really know or will ever know. It's a pointless debate really.

Cheers to you bud.
 

Sun Tzu

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Good lord. He was always a top 5 QB and the teams from 2015 on were anything but great.
In what season was he a top 5? Maybe 2015 or 2012. So, one or two years in a decade-long career he cracked the top-5 for performance at his position. The same can be said of Joe Flacco and a handful of other QBs of that decade. That is not elite, not even close.
 

bigcc

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Oh I think Pete will wear a gold jacket at some point. Not arguing that. I just think he fell by the wayside some years ago in an ever changing league. And you might be right, maybe they needed each other. That's not how I see it, but neither of us really know or will ever know. It's a pointless debate really.

Cheers to you bud.
I hope they both do, and whoever gets it first gets to put it on the other, cheers
 
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xray

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I want the "football is the most important thing in the world" culture back that Pete preached 10+ years ago.

If a player cares more about their safety, go play somewhere else.

If a player cares more about their wife and kids, go play somewhere else.

If a player cares more about living the good life with their big contract, go play somewhere else.

If I was head coach, I wouldn't even allow players to have kids. If you have a kid, you're fired. Too imuch of a distraction. Is that legal? I know some loopholes, so it would work.
I'll go even further . They must live in dorms and not allowed to leave the facilities unless there is a medical emergency ; from training camp through the regular season . Also , fines should be levied on players for poor play ; such as fumbles , dropped passes , missed tackles , missed kicks and so on . Zero pay for missed games due to injuries . No play...no pay .Watch...the recoveries will be in record time . The decadent salaries must be addressed too . The QB's will be the highest paid players at $2,000,000 per season . Every interception will cost the QB $10,000 and a pick 6 will be a $25,000 fine . The linemen will be the second highest pay grade @ $1,500.000 per season . They will be fined according to what they phuk up . Sacks allowed $3000 , missed blocks , false starts , offsides , $2000 , holding , tripping etc. $3500 . Any 15 yard or more penalty by any player for any reason will cost $5000 and loss of their monthly conjugal visit . All players will have levied fines according to their position salaries . One more thing...full body cavity searches for any player that acts like he's having fun .
 

renofox

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I'm not going to quote because I don't feel like scrolling through everything for the section, but Luke saying he retired due to toxicity or whatever is hilarious

I've NEVER understood the fascination with the guy he was garbage (this is seahawks slander I'll definitely let slide) , but his last 3 years he started 15 games (8 in det, also played 3 games in bal, 1 catch 12 yards) and caught 22 passes for 178 yards and zero tds

Apologies if he didn't retire due to the culture but if he actually said that, that's hysterical
The only hysterical thing is calling Luke Wilson a liar with no evidence to back it up, big man.
 

fenderbender123

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I'll go even further . They must live in dorms and not allowed to leave the facilities unless there is a medical emergency ; from training camp through the regular season . Also , fines should be levied on players for poor play ; such as fumbles , dropped passes , missed tackles , missed kicks and so on . Zero pay for missed games due to injuries . No play...no pay .Watch...the recoveries will be in record time . The decadent salaries must be addressed too . The QB's will be the highest paid players at $2,000,000 per season . Every interception will cost the QB $10,000 and a pick 6 will be a $25,000 fine . The linemen will be the second highest pay grade @ $1,500.000 per season . They will be fined according to what they phuk up . Sacks allowed $3000 , missed blocks , false starts , offsides , $2000 , holding , tripping etc. $3500 . Any 15 yard or more penalty by any player for any reason will cost $5000 and loss of their monthly conjugal visit . All players will have levied fines according to their position salaries . One more thing...full body cavity searches for any player that acts like he's having fun .
If you and I ran an NFL team, we'd never lose a game.
 
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