10am starts question.

[WilsonMVP]

What part of "Home Field Advantage" are people not getting?

It's not just weather and fans; it's also the time difference. If we don't like 10am games, the solution is to control HFA. When we're a wild card, we don't have that luxury and lose all right to complain about it.

Well then, maybe when we get "Home Field Advantage" again (and we will) we should have the advantage of Making our East Coast opponents to play while wearing an eye patch.
You'd think that be powers that be in the NFL would be completely neutral and show no bias, neither team should have any obvious circumstantial advantages.
It should be all about who comes out the TRUE victor when NEITHER team is given any kind of extra advantages, and BOTH presenting their best.
Anything else is chicken dung.

I think we should get to play at like 7PM local time for our homefield advantage Im sure it had no impact on the Vikings in week 1 against the 49ers when they had to play around that time

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

......The lower seeds have built in disadvantages, Travel, playing in a hostile environment, strange bed those all are the same exact disadvantages a New York or California lower seed has.

The major difference is the New York lower seed will never have the ADDITIONAL disadvantage of having to play at 10am body time. That specific disadvantage is saved solely for the West coast or in this scenario the California lower seed.

Yep and there is no reasonable counterpoint to this, pure and simple.

 

[Popeyejones]

By 6AM every morning I'm up with my daughter. By 830 AM every morning I've worked out and ready for work. I knock out the hardest and most focused tasks of my day in the morning because I've got more energy.

East Coast teams are regularly playing football while the rest of the world is tired, winding down, and eating dinner.

The 10AM start time thing amounts to not much more than junk stats and whiny overblown nonsense, IMO. I'm not just targeting Hawks fans with this, as 9ers fans bring it up too whenever they happen to lose a 1PM EST start time game.

People don't like it when their team loses and grab at any reason they can that's not their team getting beaten to make excuses for it.

 

[AirStrike]

The time difference is a complete bullshit excuse. If you're not ready to go at 10AM get out of the league. These guys show up at 7AM PST for workouts and their fine. Why would playing at 10AM would make a difference?

 

[Bobblehead]

The time difference is a complete bullshit excuse. If you're not ready to go at 10AM get out of the league. These guys show up at 7AM PST for workouts and their fine. Why would playing at 10AM would make a difference?

It affects your brain, your mind. It's just not trained for that type of adjustment, it's a real thing, I"ve been back east and it really takes time to adjust. Look up Brock Heurds take on it, he can probably explain it better.

Besides, if you think it's complete BullSh*t then how do you explain the 10 am stats? Explain it and we''ll all stop griping about this real issue.. bullsh*T or not.

 

[ZagHawk]

Last time I checked most Americans start work anywhere between 6-9 AM, and we're crying about 10 AM? God I wish I could go to work at 10 AM. Maybe the next time there is a situation like this, the team should travel sooner and perhaps take an extra day to practice at the location?

 

[DavidSeven]

Getting to the office at 8 a.m. and reading e-mail for two hours isn't exactly the same thing.

Facts:

Since 2002, Pacific and Mountain time zone teams have been outscored 202-56 in the first half of all 1 p.m. ET [10 a.m.] playoff games.

...

In total, nine out of the 11 West Coast teams (81.8 percent) that have been forced to play at 1 p.m. ET [10 a.m.] in the postseason have scored seven or fewer points in the first half. For Eastern and Central time zone teams, only 13 out of 45 teams (28.9 percent) have gotten off to a slow start of seven or fewer points in the first half.

Even more telling is that in the 11 games that involved a Pacific or Mountain time zone team, every single one of them trailed at halftime, except for one: the 2013 49ers, who led Carolina 13-10.

 

[Bobblehead]

Last time I checked most Americans start work anywhere between 6-9 AM, and we're crying about 10 AM? God I wish I could go to work at 10 AM. Maybe the next time there is a situation like this, the team should travel sooner and perhaps take an extra day to practice at the location?

Well try flying back east tomorrow and start work at 7:00 am for a couple of days.. where your body thinks it's 4:00 am and see if you do just as good a job at 7:00 am

Most jobs you arn't getting clobbered either or physically pushing your body to the limits that early either.

 

[RichNhansom]

By 6AM every morning I'm up with my daughter. By 830 AM every morning I've worked out and ready for work. I knock out the hardest and most focused tasks of my day in the morning because I've got more energy.

East Coast teams are regularly playing football while the rest of the world is tired, winding down, and eating dinner.

The 10AM start time thing amounts to not much more than junk stats and whiny overblown nonsense, IMO. I'm not just targeting Hawks fans with this, as 9ers fans bring it up too whenever they happen to lose a 1PM EST start time game.

People don't like it when their team loses and grab at any reason they can that's not their team getting beaten to make excuses for it.

You need to stop your trolling and that is exactly what you are doing. No one in here is blaming the 10AM start time for the Carolina loss it is simply a legitimate discussion and stats back up the conversation so don't come in here and try and pin this on us whining or blaming.

The fact is it is a disadvantage to ALL west coast teams and in a league that already adjusted the scheduling to prevent east coast teams from having to have the daunting task of traveling west more than twice a year, it is a very reasonable question to ask why they are not considering something that statistically is much more difficult disadvantage for west coast teams.

It's real sweet and cute to say well just win the #1 seed but that pretty much assumes the coaches weren't aware that winning the #1 seed would alleviate this disadvantage. Kind of silly isn't it to just assume all you have to do is just win more games than every other team in the NFC? Or maybe just arrogant?

Anyway you are cordially invited to ignore conversations that compel you to insinuate we are just whining if that's all you are able to contribute to the conversation.

 

[Laloosh]

I get the body clock thing but sometimes you just have to pick your battles.

Going back to the 70's, teams in "West" divisions have fared better than "East" division teams on the road, in the playoffs, in eastern time zones, in early games.

West


East


I'm aware that some of those teams are not on the west coast.

To be fair, I pulled a different result set with an emphasis on scoring margins and the west coast teams are demonstrably worse.

West


East


Thing is, only 3/8 teams in West divisions showed improvement in the 3rd quarter and 4/9 teams in East divisions improved in the 3rd quarter.

If you saw shrinking deficits or increasing leads across the board in the 3rd quarter for the West, I might be more inclined to think that it's a bigger factor but to me, I don't see how you can measure it's impact.

 

[drdiags]

Not sure what you expect to gain from this mental exercise. Seahawks have been known to have issues with 10 a.m. starts. Carroll thought he had a formula to overcome it. The NFL is not going to change how they schedule playoff games and if you are a West Coast team traveling to an East coast game, good luck but no one is going to weep for you.

Supposedly defense and the running game travels but that hasn't been the case with most Seahawks teams. Other West Coast teams appear to my eye to do better but bottom line other than pointing out the mental burden this appears to have for West Coast teams, I don't expect the NFL to change a darn thing.

It has been discussed before that East Coast teams playing on Sunday prefer to play at 1:00 p.m. it is in their wheel house of how fans plan their day. If they have to host a lower seed West Coast team, why should they have to change? Fairness, spirit of competition? Not a priority.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

By 6AM every morning I'm up with my daughter. By 830 AM every morning I've worked out and ready for work. I knock out the hardest and most focused tasks of my day in the morning because I've got more energy.

East Coast teams are regularly playing football while the rest of the world is tired, winding down, and eating dinner.

The 10AM start time thing amounts to not much more than junk stats and whiny overblown nonsense, IMO. I'm not just targeting Hawks fans with this, as 9ers fans bring it up too whenever they happen to lose a 1PM EST start time game.

People don't like it when their team loses and grab at any reason they can that's not their team getting beaten to make excuses for it.

You need to stop your trolling and that is exactly what you are doing. No one in here is blaming the 10AM start time for the Carolina loss it is simply a legitimate discussion and stats back up the conversation so don't come in here and try and pin this on us whining or blaming.

The fact is it is a disadvantage to ALL west coast teams and in a league that already adjusted the scheduling to prevent east coast teams from having to have the daunting task of traveling west more than twice a year, it is a very reasonable question to ask why they are not considering something that statistically is much more difficult disadvantage for west coast teams.

It's real sweet and cute to say well just win the #1 seed but that pretty much assumes the coaches weren't aware that winning the #1 seed would alleviate this disadvantage. Kind of silly isn't it to just assume all you have to do is just win more games than every other team in the NFC? Or maybe just arrogant?

Anyway you are cordially invited to ignore conversations that compel you to insinuate we are just whining if that's all you are able to contribute to the conversation.

Seriously Popeye, you're starting to sound like the new lvnginhwktwn.

 

[Laloosh]

Seriously Popeye, you're starting to sound like the new lvnginhwktwn.

Not even close.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Last time I checked most Americans start work anywhere between 6-9 AM, and we're crying about 10 AM? God I wish I could go to work at 10 AM. Maybe the next time there is a situation like this, the team should travel sooner and perhaps take an extra day to practice at the location?

Well try flying back east tomorrow and start work at 7:00 am for a couple of days.. where your body thinks it's 4:00 am and see if you do just as good a job at 7:00 am

Most jobs you arn't getting clobbered either or physically pushing your body to the limits that early either.

Also not competing against people equally skilled as you where any slight advantage helps tremendously

 

[Sgt Largent]

Not sure what you expect to gain from this mental exercise. Seahawks have been known to have issues with 10 a.m. starts. Carroll thought he had a formula to overcome it. The NFL is not going to change how they schedule playoff games and if you are a West Coast team traveling to an East coast game, good luck but no one is going to weep for you.

Supposedly defense and the running game travels but that hasn't been the case with most Seahawks teams. Other West Coast teams appear to my eye to do better but bottom line other than pointing out the mental burden this appears to have for West Coast teams, I don't expect the NFL to change a darn thing.

It has been discussed before that East Coast teams playing on Sunday prefer to play at 1:00 p.m. it is in their wheel house of how fans plan their day. If they have to host a lower seed West Coast team, why should they have to change? Fairness, spirit of competition? Not a priority.

Here's the thing. Home field doesn't earn you those decisions. Pick your uniform, sure. Hand out "Other Team Sucks" limited edition Wiffley buttons, you bet. I hear Tom Brady enjoys under inflated balls, why should he have to change? Show me all the data on how under or over inflated balls positively/negatively affect the game. There is none, but it is a rule based on the "perception of Competitive Advantage". And there are tons of these "Competitive Advantage" rules out there, some backed by data and others not so much. But apparently we need 30 years of Harvard level scientific studies to even make a case in this instance.

It only affects 5 teams, not enough owners give a darn. Further, if 26 of them get an occasional benefit from this scenario (real or perceived is irrelevant) then they don't give a darn ON PURPOSE. The Commissioner should do two things. Make the teams money and bolster the leagues image. He's good at #1 and horrific at #2. Too bad those two things aren't equally weighted in the eyes of the owners.

We all must realize by now that they have an army of market analysts crunching numbers to make these decisions and no change will be affected by 5 (now 6) teams advocating for change even if they were so inclined. Especially if it would need to be amended by vote.

Ever wonder how the East coast "no more than two trips west a year" thing happened so easily? Because 26 teams cared about it.

Take all rooting bias out of the equation and look at it as a fan of the entire NFL. In the regular season, why in the hell are there 10 to 12 games at 10am PST and 2 to 4 games at 1pm PST? There should be more balance across the league for the Fantasy Football and Redzone/Sunday Ticket consumers across the Nation. I can only assume their must be less money in it, or 26 owners are blocking any attempt at change.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Last time I checked most Americans start work anywhere between 6-9 AM, and we're crying about 10 AM? God I wish I could go to work at 10 AM. Maybe the next time there is a situation like this, the team should travel sooner and perhaps take an extra day to practice at the location?

You only answer this way because the question doesn't contain an explanation that plops the homework you obviously didn't do in front of your eyes.

The game STARTS at 10:00AM PST. That means....talking slowly....the players... get... up... at... 5:00AM... to... start... their... routine. You can thank me any time for that in-depth research. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Sgt Largent]

By 6AM every morning I'm up with my daughter. By 830 AM every morning I've worked out and ready for work. I knock out the hardest and most focused tasks of my day in the morning because I've got more energy.

East Coast teams are regularly playing football while the rest of the world is tired, winding down, and eating dinner.

The 10AM start time thing amounts to not much more than junk stats and whiny overblown nonsense, IMO. I'm not just targeting Hawks fans with this, as 9ers fans bring it up too whenever they happen to lose a 1PM EST start time game.

People don't like it when their team loses and grab at any reason they can that's not their team getting beaten to make excuses for it.

Nothing escapes the gravitational pull of your 1994 Limited Edition Excuse'O Meter does it? We went round and round discussing penalty disparity a while back.

What's your daughters 40 time? Is she a big hitter or just hard to catch? Like sitting on your ass while your little girl chomps a bowl of cereal is in any way comparable to participating in an NFL contest. :177692:

By the way, the players are most likely up by 4:30-5:30 am (body clock) on game day.

Listen, most of us are jocks/former jocks and understand the "No Excuse" mantra that was beaten into our souls from the day we put on our jersey. Because the only thing you can control on the field is "You", so anything outside of that is labeled an excuse and should be dismissed. It's a nice life lesson. No matter what shitty circumstance you find yourself in, You control You, now dig your way out. It doesn't change the fact that sometimes you got a lot more digging to do than your neighbor through no fault of your own. As fans, we control nothing but our decision to watch or not watch, so this rule doesn't apply no matter how much you beat your toughguy chest saying it does. :th2thumbs:

As a matter of fact, the only way we "Participate" outside of ourselves is through discussion, whys, wherefores, and how-tos. How bout we all log in after the game, click macro: if win={type} [we better them] else=if lose{type} [we suck, no excuse, get more better] then=log off.

I say we do this. Primetimers are played at what 830pm EST? I Say the West should play at 830pm PST in West Coast primetime games. Why do we have to move it back 3 hours to accomodate them? Their fans can DVR it if they are too wimpy to miss a little sleep to support their team.

We know why. 26 owners and 26 fanbases would be apoplectic over it, their teams would get smashed, and ratings would plunge due to the extreme inconvenience of that time slot for most of the nation.

On the other hand, "Hey Joe, instead of a 1pm kickoff, what about a 4pm kickoff?"

"Are you crazy Willy?! Do you know what that would do to alter the Space Time Continuum?"

"I hadn't considered that Joe. I'm sorry I even brought it up. We're still friends right?"

The arguments against are just about that silly. It's either about money or 26 owners and fanbases who are unaffected negatively and may even possibly receive a minor advantage occasionally. So 80% of league, no negative-possible postive outcome? Yep, just fine as it is.

Owners making money and NFL image intact. Nothing else to consider from a league office perspective.

 

[dogorama]

By 6AM every morning I'm up with my daughter. By 830 AM every morning I've worked out and ready for work. I knock out the hardest and most focused tasks of my day in the morning because I've got more energy.

East Coast teams are regularly playing football while the rest of the world is tired, winding down, and eating dinner.

The 10AM start time thing amounts to not much more than junk stats and whiny overblown nonsense, IMO. I'm not just targeting Hawks fans with this, as 9ers fans bring it up too whenever they happen to lose a 1PM EST start time game.

People don't like it when their team loses and grab at any reason they can that's not their team getting beaten to make excuses for it.

Nothing escapes the gravitational pull of your 1994 Limited Edition Excuse'O Meter does it? We went round and round discussing penalty disparity a while back.

What's your daughters 40 time? Is she a big hitter or just hard to catch? Like sitting on your ass while your little girl chomps a bowl of cereal is in any way comparable to participating in an NFL contest. :177692:

By the way, the players are most likely up by 4:30-5:30 am (body clock) on game day.

Listen, most of us are jocks/former jocks and understand the "No Excuse" mantra that was beaten into our souls from the day we put on our jersey. Because the only thing you can control on the field is "You", so anything outside of that is labeled an excuse and should be dismissed. It's a nice life lesson. No matter what shitty circumstance you find yourself in, You control You, now dig your way out. It doesn't change the fact that sometimes you got a lot more digging to do than your neighbor through no fault of your own. As fans, we control nothing but our decision to watch or not watch, so this rule doesn't apply no matter how much you beat your toughguy chest saying it does. :th2thumbs:

As a matter of fact, the only way we "Participate" outside of ourselves is through discussion, whys, wherefores, and how-tos. How bout we all log in after the game, click macro: if win={type} [we better them] else=if lose{type} [we suck, no excuse, get more better] then=log off.

I say we do this. Primetimers are played at what 830pm EST? I Say the West should play at 830pm PST in West Coast primetime games. Why do we have to move it back 3 hours to accomodate them? Their fans can DVR it if they are too wimpy to miss a little sleep to support their team.

We know why. 26 owners and 26 fanbases would be apoplectic over it, their teams would get smashed, and ratings would plunge due to the extreme inconvenience of that time slot for most of the nation.

On the other hand, "Hey Joe, instead of a 1pm kickoff, what about a 4pm kickoff?"

"Are you crazy Willy?! Do you know what that would do to alter the Space Time Continuum?"

"I hadn't considered that Joe. I'm sorry I even brought it up. We're still friends right?"

The arguments against are just about that silly. It's either about money or 26 owners and fanbases who are unaffected negatively and may even possibly receive a minor advantage occasionally. So 80% of league, no negative-possible postive outcome? Yep, just fine as it is.

Owners making money and NFL image intact. Nothing else to consider from a league office perspective.

I think you are spot-on on this one , it isn't fair but what really is in this world?

 

[HawkFreak]

Is there a reason that the 4 games played during the playoff weekends can't start at 3:30pm & 7:30pm on both Saturday and Sunday?

 

[Popeyejones]

I get the body clock thing but sometimes you just have to pick your battles...

Great post, thanks (!), and thanks for doing the legwork to go into it.

I've seen the bivariate associations before (always with the time period more limited than what you've done of course as smaller sample sizes can always favor bigger arguments) but I've always suspected that if the difference is statistically significant at all it wouldn't take too many controls (e.g. overall record of each team) to wash it out.

I love stuff like this, and it's totally the type of thing with unlimited hours in the day I'd want to be investigating on a blog or something.