ESPN piece on Seahawks Wilson breakup

flv2

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Russ' camp was pissed because John looked at Mahomes and then Allen. Did Team Brady get pissed over Jacoby Brissett and Jimmy G.? The difference is that Brady just took care of business while, behind the scenes, Russ went into full meltdown mode. This was a good read. It also verifies that some front office folks think that Russ is on the decline and that he is more focused about chasing an MVP than he is on winning ball games.
Mahomes and Allen were high 1st round picks. I doubt Brady felt threatened by Garoppolo being picked at #62 or Brissett being picked at #91. The team needed a #2 QB and Mallett wasn't it. Brady was known to be upset when the Patriots wanted to retain Garoppolo by using a franchise tag on him. Brady was justified in that. He wasn't taking less money to stay with a winning team so they could spend a fortune on his back-up.
 

toffee

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Mahomes and Allen were high 1st round picks. I doubt Brady felt threatened by Garoppolo being picked at #62 or Brissett being picked at #91. The team needed a #2 QB and Mallett wasn't it. Brady was known to be upset when the Patriots wanted to retain Garoppolo by using a franchise tag on him. Brady was justified in that. He wasn't taking less money to stay with a winning team so they could spend a fortune on his back-up.
If I got my timing right, when John scouted Allen and Mahomes, they were yet skyrocketed into high 1st round picks. Allen was fighting college INT issues and Mahomes were fighting being a system QB.
 

TwistedHusky

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Nobody thought Mahomes would turn into what he did.
I projected him as Wilson-lite. I suspect JS did too.

Anyone projecting him as what he is now, would have taken him earlier.

Allen wasn't a slam dunk at the time either. Remember Wentz?
 

Fade

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Could you elaborate why Broncos' management is superior? Quite curious about that.

This will require quite a long answer, but I will keep it as short and to the point as I can.

Simply the Broncos have drafted better, signed better free agents, made better trades than the Seahawks since 2015, save for the QB. Which are hard AF to find.

They took a lot of criticism in 2021 for not drafting a QB, and instead remained patient taking stud CB, Patrick Surtain.

George Paton would later earn the Best Draft Award as voted by NFL front offices for this draft class. (Not mediots.)

I point out this particular move of many great moves made because of the context. Denver had been QB starved for 6 seasons at that point. 5 QBs went in the 1st round that year. But they evaluated (like I evaluated and stated at various points leading up to that draft) that it was an overrated QB class and those guys were being pushed up the board, George Paton stayed with his process and drafted the right player. Regardless if they had a desperate need at QB. That is good management.

Let's see the Seahawks pass on QB next year, if none of them are the right fit after just 1 season of not having a QB. You know and I know, they're drafting a QB in the 1st round come hell or highwater next year, and it illustrates how behind the Seahawks seem to be at every turn. Like a dog chasing firetrucks they are hyper-focused on need.

Drew Lock filled their QB need this year believe it or not. Pete stated he would be the 1st QB on their board in this year's draft. JS is now on the record in this very article that he wanted to do the deal with Denver because he wanted Drew Lock.

The notorious LJ Collier Draft. Where they watched defensive ends come off the board one after the other, and still took LJ Collier with their first selection because that was their need.

They then spend a 2nd on Marquis Blair. and a year later trade two 1sts, and a 3rd for Jamal Adams, and making him the highest paid safety in the game.

You get the point, the poor moves are well documented at this point, no need to rehash them for the sake of brevity.

Next up ownership. Jodi with an "i" made Pete the King of the Seahawks. He is not questioned, nor held accountable. Paul used to do this, and I wholly believe if Paul were alive and well, Pete, would've been canned a long time ago.

Pete can screw up all he wants. He can be arrogant and continue to run dated schemes that haven't worked for years. (He admitted this this off-season.) He can do whatever including run the team into the ground, and it is never his fault, always someone elses, even though he signs off on everything, and holds final say on anything football related. So technically anything wrong or right with the Seahawks falls at the feet of Pete Carroll. It's been mostly wrong for a long time.

Jodi with an "i" seems to be pinching pennies, though admittedly need more seasons to confirm this. But since Paul has died they've had a tons of cap space to make huge moves in 2020 and 2022, and instead chose to blow it on JAGs.

They blew $60M on JAGS in 2020, and then turned around and mortgaged the farm for Jamal Adams right before the season, claiming they needed more star power. (Pete then on record admitted that they were still trying to figure out how to use him early in the 2021 season. As a baffling side note.)

Could've gotten the stars with the cap space instead of mortgaging the farm and kept those draft picks. But it requires an owner willing to pony up and put large amounts of money into escrow. Using cash over cap. Jodi with an "i" is yet to do this and it is putting the Seahawks at disadvantage because of it.

Denver now has the richest owner in the NFL, and will utilize this cash over cap strategy to their advantage. having structured Wilson's contract in a way that is going to allow them to be aggressive in Free Agency in the coming years and have a loaded team year in and year out. Copying what the Rams have been doing.


Here's a vid on cash over cap for those unaware what it is:



Having such a passive owner, and a geriatric Coach/Executive VP of Football Operations is killing the Seahawks. The one hope is JS somehow finds a way to draft another franchise QB. But even in that, they might not develop him or support him properly. So even if they draft the right one, he may not develop given their current setup.

Some on here mentioning Josh Allen. He was a project that took 3 years to develop with some of the best offensive coaches in the NFL. Pete, Waldron are not on that level. They can't even improve Drew Lock who appears to be regressing. Upgrades will be needed on the coaching staff including Pete, if that is the plan.
 

toffee

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Nobody thought Mahomes would turn into what he did.
I projected him as Wilson-lite. I suspect JS did too.

Anyone projecting him as what he is now, would have taken him earlier.

Allen wasn't a slam dunk at the time either. Remember Wentz?
my point exactly, john's nose was screwed on right, he sniffed out two great QBs. Too bad that he wasn't allowed to move forward.
 

flv2

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If I got my timing right, when John scouted Allen and Mahomes, they were yet skyrocketed into high 1st round picks. Allen was fighting college INT issues and Mahomes were fighting being a system QB.
Good point. At the time of the 2 Pro days neither QB was projected to be a top 10 pick. The thing about Mahomes was with the Seahawks scouting him as a possible late 1st round pick and then his being picked at #10 we don't know how high they were prepared to move up. Maybe they liked him at #35 and maybe they liked him at #26. The concern for Wilson was whether they liked him at #11 or #12. When the Seahawks scouted another possible 1st round replacement the following year and that player also ended up being a top 10 pick the writing was definitely on the wall.
 

seatownlowdown

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Mahomes and Allen were high 1st round picks. I doubt Brady felt threatened by Garoppolo being picked at #62 or Brissett being picked at #91. The team needed a #2 QB and Mallett wasn't it. Brady was known to be upset when the Patriots wanted to retain Garoppolo by using a franchise tag on him. Brady was justified in that. He wasn't taking less money to stay with a winning team so they could spend a fortune on his back-up.
i hear what you're saying. i do. except this wasn't franchising a qb2 when we already had qb1 wilson. since you're comparing situations: wilson, who unlike brady, never took a paycut, instead has been paid top $ since his extension on his rookie deal. and look at that, he just signed his *fresh* 🤩 *new* 🤩 $47m a year deal... with the team he manipulated to go to. i get wilson being "upset" that the seahawks targeted other players. and he should have been. at himself. for instilling doubt, for leaving the door open a crack. that's pride. something wilson has in spades.

being proactive and targeting mahomes and allen is in line with the mantra 'always compete'. simply turning over rocks, find a star rookie qb on a cheap 4-5 year rookie deal, someone that can actually stick to a gameplan, someone that can take the offense to new levels. and with that future qb1 on the roster, it would have kept wilson honest, and given the seahawks the ability to potentially max out trade value for wilson. if we had drafted mahomes or allen years ago, for example, and then traded wilson and got a huge haul, where would we at be now? pete didn't want to pull the trigger. what if, what if. lol. at this point i'm thankful and a wee bit surprised we actually allocated the draft capital we did in that broncos trade. qb desperate teams, man 😭 .

being proactive: it's just a smart business model. the best time to look for a future franchise qb1 is when you already have an adequate qb1... especially if that current qb1 isn't your ideal long-term future. see: rodgers/favre, young/montana, mahomes/smith, etc. our current situation just proved this to be 100% true.
 

TwistedHusky

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The problem isn't the ones you thought would be winners and turned into them, we need to see the ones that turned into nothing they thought would be stellar.
What if JS scouted 8 QBs and 2 turned into Mahomes and Allen? Not bad odds right? But remember those other 6 would have then been 1st round picks, 1 out of 3 isn't great odds if you literally need to be a terrible team for a year to get the chance for that.

Catching Allen is great. How many not-Allens would they have drafted is the big question.

We have no choice but to trust in JS. And like Fade pointed out, even having the right QB may not matter if our HC cannot alter his system to maximize the effectiveness of our QB/mitigate his weaknesses. The most baffling part of this problem with Pete is that he used to be really good at that. But he hasn't been good at altering his system for his talent in some time.
Frustrating. We will see shortly whether we can dig ourselves out of this mess. But I suspect Wilson will have greater success faster than we will.

Because QBs have paved paths to success based on the NFL rules favoring QBs.
 

seatownlowdown

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The notorious LJ Collier Draft. Where they watched defensive ends come off the board one after the other, and still took LJ Collier with their first selection because that was their need.
this, along with the jamal adams mess :sick: will go down in infamy.

i seem to think we're headed in a better direction now. could just be pete's learned some lessons and taken a back seat in personnel decisions. sure, he may still have final say, but it's obvious that with the executed wilson trade and last draft that we are addressing a rebuild properly. now if pete could actually find a real defensive coordinator... well, that'd be great :rolleyes:
 

toffee

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The problem isn't the ones you thought would be winners and turned into them, we need to see the ones that turned into nothing they thought would be stellar.
What if JS scouted 8 QBs and 2 turned into Mahomes and Allen? Not bad odds right? But remember those other 6 would have then been 1st round picks, 1 out of 3 isn't great odds if you literally need to be a terrible team for a year to get the chance for that.

Catching Allen is great. How many not-Allens would they have drafted is the big question.

We have no choice but to trust in JS. And like Fade pointed out, even having the right QB may not matter if our HC cannot alter his system to maximize the effectiveness of our QB/mitigate his weaknesses. The most baffling part of this problem with Pete is that he used to be really good at that. But he hasn't been good at altering his system for his talent in some time.
Frustrating. We will see shortly whether we can dig ourselves out of this mess. But I suspect Wilson will have greater success faster than we will.

Because QBs have paved paths to success based on the NFL rules favoring QBs.
According to Fade, what we need to do is (1) change ownership, (2) fire our GM and HC, (3) follow with trading and welcoming our old franchise QB back, and let him be the shadow Owner/GM/HC.

OK I made up (3), my bad. But do you foresee (1) and (2) from happening?
 
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seatownlowdown

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What Broncos are saying about this ESPN article. interestingly, dude said they have to wait till 2023 to fix their OL.


meanwhile, we just drafted bookend tackles, cross at #9 and lucas at #72

... zing! :ROFLMAO:
 

OrangeGravy

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Fair enough. I guess I just don't understand the obsession. Sounds more like a bunch of people who can't get over a high school breakup. This is the NFL, players move on.
But it's not going away anytime soon so.......
So why not ignore the threads? Why must you try to convince everyone else to stop talking about it, when all you have to do, is not read it?

Should be easy enough since you've moved on, no?
 

Hollandhawk

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Mahomes and Allen were high 1st round picks. I doubt Brady felt threatened by Garoppolo being picked at #62 or Brissett being picked at #91. The team needed a #2 QB and Mallett wasn't it. Brady was known to be upset when the Patriots wanted to retain Garoppolo by using a franchise tag on him. Brady was justified in that. He wasn't taking less money to stay with a winning team so they could spend a fortune on his back-up.
Where did Brady get drafted again? I’m pretty sure Brady knows never to underestimate a driven individual.
 

OrangeGravy

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What Broncos are saying about this ESPN article. interestingly, dude said they have to wait till 2023 to fix their OL.


I started seeing him differently in 2016 when I saw them play in person on Monday night against the Lions (the game where we won with the forced fumble as Megatron was about to score the winning TD... KJ knocked the ball out thr back of the endzone for a touchback).

I remember having just bought my Authentic Wilson jersey... got to our seats and started chatting folks up and to a man, they were sooo down on his play. Then, for the first time, I saw for myself what I couldn't on TV... he made his plays, but for about 55 minutes, missed more than he hit.

But yeah, I thought Wentz was the benchmark for being butthurt about your FO looking to the future. His tantrum doesn't compare to what went down here.

Brady was challenged when they brought Garappolo in as his heir apparent and he promptly sent him packing. He didn't disparage the FO. He didn't sew division. He just went out and balled.

It will be interesting to see how Russ handles the pressure of the truth about him coming out. I mean, it was Pete who identified early on that his psyche was shakey when it came to hyper criticism. Now, he's made his bed and put a fence around it.

I dont think it's a coincidence that he played so poorly last year - I think the fact that the house of cards was crumbling and even DK was frustrated with him internally, folks outside were questioning his greatness, and he wasnt comfortbale with Shane's playbook, directly led to what Hass described as not even high school quality execution.

Hes also the same guy who KNOWS the league has him figured. B Baker pretty much summed up the strategy against Russ when recapping their victory against us in OT in 2020... that their defense knew that when they brought enough pressure, he'd start to panic and make mistakes.

That formula is no different. We've been on the receiving end of it for 3 years now. When Russ was ok making way with his legs, he could buy more room to execute. But since he stopped doing that and tries to sit back and just deal... he doesn't have the anticipation or the ability to progress through his reads quick enough. He'll pull the ball down and try to make space. Force him to make a mistake in confusion, throwing to an area he isn't comfortable with, and his confidence will be shaken.

We just need to get to him a few times.
He's definitely earned a few play through the whistle plays from former teammates. Worth the 15 yards if you get a clean shot in the 1st quarter
 

toffee

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Where did Brady get drafted again? I’m pretty sure Brady knows never to underestimate a driven individual.
Brady, Montana, and Wilson, all had obvious faults. Brady for lacking in athleticism, Montana for lacking elite arm strength, and Wilson for being too short. All seemingly big obstacles, very hard, if not impossible to overcome. All three from upper middle income two parents family, very accomplished QB from colleges with big time football programs, and very very driven individuals.
 

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Wow! Featured story on ESPN.com! This has some great insight on the break up. I'd really recommend the article and it made me open my eyes. Not a good look for Russ.

Look at this quote about Russell after the 2019 game vs the Falcons:

"He threw two touchdowns as the Seahawks jumped out to a 24-0 halftime lead but attempted only five passes in the second half.Afterward, according to a source who spoke with the quarterback, Wilson was livid at how Carroll had taken his foot off the gas, believing it had cost him a chance to grab hold of the MVP race."

Look at that. What a selfish guy. Talks about team team team but gets mad we didn't keep crushing a team that was down 24-0 because he wants to... win MVP? It's not all about you Russ! Sad!
Imagine thinking every player doesn’t want personal accolades
 

flv2

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i hear what you're saying. i do. except this wasn't franchising a qb2 when we already had qb1 wilson. since you're comparing situations: wilson, who unlike brady, never took a paycut, instead has been paid top $ since his extension on his rookie deal. and look at that, he just signed his *fresh* 🤩 *new* 🤩 $47m a year deal... with the team he manipulated to go to. i get wilson being "upset" that the seahawks targeted other players. and he should have been. at himself. for instilling doubt, for leaving the door open a crack. that's pride. something wilson has in spades.

being proactive and targeting mahomes and allen is in line with the mantra 'always compete'. simply turning over rocks, find a star rookie qb on a cheap 4-5 year rookie deal, someone that can actually stick to a gameplan, someone that can take the offense to new levels. and with that future qb1 on the roster, it would have kept wilson honest, and given the seahawks the ability to potentially max out trade value for wilson. if we had drafted mahomes or allen years ago, for example, and then traded wilson and got a huge haul, where would we at be now? pete didn't want to pull the trigger. what if, what if. lol. at this point i'm thankful and a wee bit surprised we actually allocated the draft capital we did in that broncos trade. qb desperate teams, man 😭 .

being proactive: it's just a smart business model. the best time to look for a future franchise qb1 is when you already have an adequate qb1... especially if that current qb1 isn't your ideal long-term future. see: rodgers/favre, young/montana, mahomes/smith, etc. our current situation just proved this to be 100% true.
I didn't compare situations. The comparisons were in the post I responded to. The Draft positions of the players selected by the Patriots were #62 and #91. If the Patriots had targeted QBs in the 1st round in back-to-back years only for other teams to select them with top 10 picks then Brady might very well have reacted differently.

I don't blame the Seahawks for looking at alternatives and doing what is best for business from their perspective. I don't think it's fair to absolve the team for doing that and then criticise a player for acting in his own best interests.

Wilson's new deal is $161M for 4 years. That price includes payment for the Broncos buying non-guaranteed team options beyond those 4 years.

You asked where the Seahawks would be if they had traded for Mahomes or Allen. Trading into the top 9 from where the Seahawks were positioned would have cost a lot of Draft capital and/or quality players. Wilson would have been worth more earlier in his career but with his replacement already on the roster and his being unhappy other teams may have viewed it as a buyer's market. The Seahawks may not have been able to get maximum value in a trade. Both Mahomes and Allen were projects coming into the NFL. Neither hit the ground running. Neither may have become elite QBs in Seattle.
 

flv2

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Where did Brady get drafted again? I’m pretty sure Brady knows never to underestimate a driven individual.
we're all aware of where Brady, (and Wilson for that matter), was selected. Players don't underestimate competition from lower round picks. However, no-one wants to see their team using large amounts of Draft capital on their replacement. The #10 pick is worth about 4.5 time the value of the #62 pick. The more capital is used the more pressure the team is under to play the new player. Additionally these are resources that don't help the existing player to move the team forward. Aaron Rodgers wasn't happy with the Packers selecting Jordan Love.
 

hawksincebirth

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Mahomes and Allen were high 1st round picks. I doubt Brady felt threatened by Garoppolo being picked at #62 or Brissett being picked at #91. The team needed a #2 QB and Mallett wasn't it. Brady was known to be upset when the Patriots wanted to retain Garoppolo by using a franchise tag on him. Brady was justified in that. He wasn't taking less money to stay with a winning team so they could spend a fortune on his back-up.
Oh what do you know some facts
 

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