Wilson and the Oline

[onepicknick1]

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, and I'm not suggesting that Germain Ifedi is not bad, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Where did you get that Fox News LOL. The Thing that is funny they rush one who do they decide is our worst Offensive Lineman where they could get pressure Germain Ifedi and of course he gets beat.

 

[mrt144]

Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

What you are talking about is what people talk about when they say pocket presence. Most NFL caliber QB's have to develop a sixth sense. They constantly have a clock ticking in their head, and a feel for when things are going to go awry. Some Quarterbacks are better than others at this skill. For example, Brady, and Manning are hardly ever sacked, because they know when to hold em' and when to fold em. They know when players are about to close in on them. If they didn't have this skill they would be mediocre due to their lack of mobility. Pocket presence also takes into account how players manipulate the pocket. Brees would be a good example of pocket manipulation. He moves around in the pocket but they are small movements. He baits the defense, and sets up his blockers with his movements from within the pocket. By doing this it makes his line look better than they truly are, and it opens up throwing lanes.

You talk about some of his inaccurate passes, they happen due to his lack of pocket presence. Even with no pressure he looks skittish in the pocket, and has happy feet. The happy feet aspect is important because it causes Wilson to throw with poor mechanics. When he is throwing on the run, or throwing while his feet are hopping around it causes him to throw from his back foot, and I notice when he gets in these modes he has no follow through. He also isn't able to drive the ball with his body weight. That is why in this game you had people questioning Wilson's arm strength. He clearly has a good arm, it is just that he is throwing from a less than ideal position most of the time. Some of that is clearly on the line, but a good portion of it is also due to Wilson's skittish nature in the pocket.

Wilson have never had to develop these skills, or rather I get the impression from our play calling that they have never been emphasized by our coaching staff. We call a bunch of deep routes, and expect Wilson to buy time for us until one of our guys come open. Unfortunately, until the Seahawks stop approaching the game with this mentality, this aspect of his game will not change, and conversely our line will also look much worse than it really is.

When I saw Carroll complaining about Wilson not sticking to the pocket I had to laugh. You complain about this now? You've been running an offense that encourages this type of play, with no real checkdown options, and you have the gull to complain about the way Wilson is approaching the game? Your backwards offensive philosophy, and your coordinator is why we haven't seen any improvement in this area for Wilson. Maybe if you stopped viewing the offense as a supplementary piece for your vaunted defense we wouldn't be where we are now.

Dude, you nailed it.

One of the curious things is that RW isn't always throwing those back foot sailers with no follow through. It isn't an all consuming problem on every play. Also, look at some of the PA rollouts right where he has ample blocking and he has great mechanics and those are pretty on the money. But you look at when he's making those back foot throws and they are by and large in a pocket that is collapsing and he is tenative to step up in the best circumstances and avoiding a worse hit in the worst circumstances.

And I think you're on the money with the last two paragraphs!

 

[Steve2222]

I mean, Wilson won us the game too. The defense just stopped playing with under 2 minutes to go.

 

[Spin Doctor]

This could be the case, although the main thing that confuses me is 2015. When Russ went on his hot streak he ranked dead last as far as time with the ball in his hand. Meaning he got the ball out of his hand quicker than the likes of Manning, and Brady. In 2015 he was using the hot routes, and he was using his outlet receivers consistently. The way we approached the offense was also quite a bit different. It was closer to the offense Shannahan ran in Denver than whatever we're running today.

My question is this; why did we go away from that style of offense? Why do we consistently go away from what is working for us? What is the root cause of this? Is it Bevell, is it Carroll? Quite frankly I'm at a loss. Since the later half of 2015 our offensive strategy has been perplexing me. What caused us to shift to what we have been doing

 

[Spin Doctor]

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, and I'm not suggesting that Germain Ifedi is not bad, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Where did you get that Fox News LOL. The Thing that is funny they rush one who do they decide is our worst Offensive Lineman where they could get pressure Germain Ifedi and of course he gets beat.

That article has a point with Ifedi. Usually tackles are taught to redirect pass rushers. They set them on the wrong angle towards the QB. This is one of the basics of lineman play. This technique is useless when your QB is so far back from the line. If Wilson had stepped up he could have bought himself more time. Instead, where Wilson is positioned puts him right inline with the pass rusher.

 

[theincrediblesok]

The good news is Wilson gets to play again on a short week and hopefully he has a chance to see the mistakes he made and fix it in time.

 

[Scorpion05]

Great post Scorpion. Thank you for the links and the detailed debunking effort. :2thumbs:

The Hail Mary point especially boggled my mind. No excuse for it imo :irishdrinkers:

 

[Siouxhawk]

Russ was a little off against the Skins and developed a happy feet tendency. But I don't think that will linger. And despite that, he generated a ton of yards and steered the team to what should have been a win had it not been for the collapse of our kicker and final-drive stand by our defense.

 

[Popeyejones]

It's amazing what the power of media can do. I saw this article earlier and knew some fans would take it at face value.

You act like the arguments from this article just appeared out of thin air, though.

For years now on this very board I’ve been getting crap for saying that it is PRECISELY these exact same things which at this point still relegate Wilson into just being a very, very good QB rather than a truly elite one. Did I somehow figure out a way to copy the arguments from this article years before it was written? Clark and Mays have noted the same thing. The pro talent scouts surveyed in Sando’s article noted the same thing.

The point is that if a bunch of people, both professional and amateur, independently watch a guy play over a number of years and independently come to the same conclusion about an area in his game that he still needs to improve on (and I think he still can, and might!), you can’t just dismiss it as the “power of media” and the cart leading the horse.

You can of course still disagree with the assessment, but you can’t dismiss people who disagree with you as just being a bunch of sheeple looking for something to hold onto.

 

[Popeyejones]

Russ was a little off against the Skins and developed a happy feet tendency. But I don't think that will linger. And despite that, he generated a ton of yards and steered the team to what should have been a win had it not been for the collapse of our kicker and final-drive stand by our defense.

FWIW I didn’t see him really doing anything different last week than he has been doing his entire career.

It’s just a very high variance style of play that he has, which leads to wild swings in effectiveness across weeks (i.e. all world two weeks ago, really struggling last week), and across halves, quarters, etc.

He has runs where he looks like the best QB in the NFL and runs where he looks like a bottom quarter QB in the NFL not because he’s doing anything differently, but just because he has a high variance style of play.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, and I'm not suggesting that Germain Ifedi is not bad, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Okay, good points. Thanks for providing numbers, now let’s analyze them.

Notice the Qbs with the fastest release times so far? Tom Brady, Watson, and Aaron Rodgers are also in the bottom half. In fact, the Qbs with quick release times this year are not doing that well, except for Brees

So I stand by my statement before. When compared to the elite Qbs, Russell does not hold the ball that much more longer than others. When you factor in the actual, statistical facts of Russell being pressured compared to Brady and Rodgers, then him running for his life further underscores my point and inflates the numbers

Last year Russell’s time to throw was 2.61. Tom Brady was 2.56. Aaron Rodgers was 2.87

Not to mention, Russell is not captain check down. According to those very numbers you showed, Russell is near tops in the league at pushing the ball down field, which also factors in. My intention is not to simply blindly defend Russell. He does at times make mistakes bailing the pocket, not taking the checkdown, etc. But my point has always been, he is not doing anything most other Qbs don't. I usually take issue with those who claim that somehow the "Elite" Qbs don't take sacks like Russell, don't hold onto the ball like Russell, and the numbers don't bear that out. It's pretty on par at the end of the day

I'm going to have to disagree with your implication that 3.0 and 2.6 is not a significant statistical difference. I find it to be convenient hand-waving. Wilson is holding onto the ball. Whether by his own hero-ball tendencies, the instructions of Pete, the design of the first-half play-calling, or all three, is what's up for discussion.

 

[cymatica]

Russ was a little off against the Skins and developed a happy feet tendency. But I don't think that will linger. And despite that, he generated a ton of yards and steered the team to what should have been a win had it not been for the collapse of our kicker and final-drive stand by our defense.

The game should not have been that close against a depleted skins team at home. The gameplan did not attack their weakness(13+ long balls against a good secondary) and the run was abandoned for no good reason. Of course he was off when we play into the opponents hands.

Wilson and the oline will always make it look difficult because they are frequently put in tough situations.

Question: only 3 hb screens (i might be off by 1 lol) in 8 games is good or bad help for an oline?

 

[Siouxhawk]

Russ was a little off against the Skins and developed a happy feet tendency. But I don't think that will linger. And despite that, he generated a ton of yards and steered the team to what should have been a win had it not been for the collapse of our kicker and final-drive stand by our defense.

The game should not have been that close against a depleted skins team at home. The gameplan did not attack their weakness(13+ long balls against a good secondary) and the run was abandoned for no good reason. Of course he was off when we play into the opponents hands.

Wilson and the oline will always make it look difficult because they are frequently put in tough situations.

Question: only 3 hb screens (i might be off by 1 lol) in 8 games is good or bad help for an oline?

We completed a number of short and intermediate passes too. Problem was a number of them were called back due to penalties. Need to be more disciplined.

We didn't play into the opponent's hands ... we bound our own hands. Plus, we did have a 4-point lead with 90 seconds to play. Let's not forget that little nugget.

 

[CamanoIslandJQ]

1-The Seahawks are 5-3 in the 1-st half of this season,
2-The last few years, the Seahawks have won more games in the 2-nd half of the season.
3-If they play as well in the 2-nd half as the first, the season record would be 10-6,
4-If they play better in the second half, they could go 6-2, 7-1 or 8-0 in the 2-nd half of the season.
Their season record would then be 11-5, 12-4 or 13-3.........right in the ballpark for many on this board in their preseason predictions. How is it that y'all expect them to lose 3-6 games in your preseason guesses & then be so down on them when they are 5-3 at the mid-season point? Recent history shows It's only going to get better in the second half.
Go Hawks.

 

[Siouxhawk]

1-The Seahawks are 5-3 in the 1-st half of this season,
2-The last few years, the Seahawks have won more games in the 2-nd half of the season.
3-If they play as well in the 2-nd half as the first, the season record would be 10-6,
4-If they play better in the second half, they could go 6-2, 7-1 or 8-0 in the 2-nd half of the season.
Their season record would then be 11-5, 12-4 or 13-3.........right in the ballpark for many on this board in their preseason predictions. How is it that y'all expect them to lose 3-6 games in your preseason guesses & then be so down on them when they are 5-3 at the mid-season point? Recent history shows It's only going to get better in the second half.
Go Hawks.

Very logical post. Thanks for adding some common sense.

 

[brimsalabim]

Marshall Fulk just said the addition of Brown to the line means that only three rushers will get to Wilson in 2 seconds or less. Maybe we can at least run behind him?