The last 30-35 yards

[sdog1981]

Hammock effect is pure BS.

The 2009 Saints
Jahri Evans 6-4
Carl Nicks 6-6
Jonathan Goodwin 6-3


2016 Saints
Max Unger 6-5
Jahri Evans 6-4
Tim Lelito 6-4

The only difference is the Saints linemen almost never get pushed back. Wilson and Brees are more affected by pass rush up the middle due to their hight.

 

[Anthony!]

yeah except as I stated with facts there are 6-2 Qbs and bigger having issues in the RZ(oh and top notch QBs too) funny part is they too have less than good olines HMM as I also pointed out

Without saying that one of you is right or wrong, but that some taller QBs have redzone problem doesn't prove anything about why RW have an issue in the redzone.

They have different skillset, different coordinators, different receivers and well everything is different.

NO, but since someone was making the point about how his height may or may not be an issue the fact taller QBs also have issues does make the point that it is not a Height issue. Also the fact the all the Qbs who are good in the RZ have good oline makes the point the oline is the bigger issue. We have been top 5 in RZ penalties every year since 2012. That si the point.

and that is incorrect. It just proves that being tall doesn't automatically make you good in the redzone - that is it. RW could still have an issue in the redzone solely from being short (I am not saying this is the case). The fact that SOME tall QBs struggle in the redzone doesn't mean that being short is not a disadvantage

I certainly think it is a negative to be short in the redzone. I think other skills can make up for a lot of it but that doesn't mean it isn't a negative that has to be overcome and gives less margin for errors

I disagree if height was a big as issue as Huey and Duey are making it then tall QBs would be better, and short QBs would struggle but short QBs are good and bad as are big Qbs. IN other words height appears to not be a deliminator in the RZ since there are big and small QBs who are good and struggle. Now if most Big QBs were great and most little QBs were bad then maybe but since that is not the case the Height issue is a non issue. OR another way to think of it is, there is no evidence to support it is an issue, and some to say it is not

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Meh, nobody is going to budge. We all have our opinions on it. The guy can do no right by many, and that's fine. You're either a damn good QB or you're not. He's clearly damn good and has been very successful. How often do his passes get tipped? Pretty damn rare. He's been told his entire life what he CAN'T do. Yet here he is, clearly a top 7 QB in football. Imagine that. I'd like to think we all want the same thing, the Hawks to win another Lombardi.
And when he gets his 2 or 3 rings by the time he's retired, nobody can take that away from him.
The obsession with wanting to make excuses for WHY the guy is good makes no sense, but to his/her own I guess.
You would think that at some point, he would be seen as just a damn good QB, regardless of this stupid obsession with height. :irishdrinkers:

 

[semiahmoo]

The play calling in the red zone has been pathetic for a long time. That points to one person.

Agreed. And yet that cause remains on the sideline.

Pete is loyal to a fault...

 

[semiahmoo]

And wasnt Jimmy the third-most targeted receiver on the team last year?.

Since we are talking about the red zone...


Graham's targets 2016 (by a significant margin his worst, non-injury, year)
- Inside the twenty - 20
- Inside the ten - 3
- Inside the five - 2

Baldwin's
- Inside the twenty - 16
- Inside the ten - 7
- Inside the five - 3

Richardson's
- Inside the twenty - 4
- Inside the ten - 3
- Inside the five - 2

Seriously, one of the best, all-time red zone threats, and you can't target him more from inside the 10 than Paul freakin Richardson? You don't take a 10 million per year cap hit on a guy just to have him as a decoy in the red zone.

And yes, I'm certain Wilson's height makes this more difficult for him than for a taller QB of equal skill. It's going to be harder to see Graham over the middle than to see the back corner routes and throw there. Not impossible, just harder. Simple geometry.

Stimulating post.

Now that I think about it, I think I recall reading that that there was some concern that Matt Ungar would occlude some of the six foot Brees' sight lines thus impairing his passing. And, someone wrote that this was the reason the the Saints preferred shorter guards to that Brees could see over them better. From the sight lines perspective, it makes sense that, other things being equal, one should distribute one's offensive linemen by height, like a hammock, with the tallest guys on the ends, and the shortest at center.

Centers: Britt is six six, Hunt six two, Pericak six three. Britt is an outlier here, but you take talent where you find it, and other things are not equal with Britt in particular, with him being an ex-wrestler his mind knows a lot about taking guys to the ground, and he is good at it. Guys on the ground do not block sighting lines.

Guards: Glowinski six four, Jordan Roos six three. Our pure guards are shorter.

Guards/Tackles: Aboushi six five, Ifedi six five, Joeckel six six, Odhiambo six four, Pocic six six. Our hybrid guards/tackles run from six four to six six. Odhiambo is a little short for tackle, but has good feet, etc.

Tackles: Brown six five, Fant six five, Senior six five, Tyrus Thompson six five, Matt Tobin six six. Our pure tackles run from six five to six six.

So the "Hammock Effect" is not large, but the pattern is there on average.

And, all quarterbacks benefit from the hammock effect. which, due to geometry, increases with quarterback shortness.

Well said.

And agreed.

As someone else said - it's basic geometry.

RW is short and that likely causes some issues with his ability to see all available options in the red zone.

 

[Anthony!]

And wasnt Jimmy the third-most targeted receiver on the team last year?.

Since we are talking about the red zone...


Graham's targets 2016 (by a significant margin his worst, non-injury, year)
- Inside the twenty - 20
- Inside the ten - 3
- Inside the five - 2

Baldwin's
- Inside the twenty - 16
- Inside the ten - 7
- Inside the five - 3

Richardson's
- Inside the twenty - 4
- Inside the ten - 3
- Inside the five - 2

Seriously, one of the best, all-time red zone threats, and you can't target him more from inside the 10 than Paul freakin Richardson? You don't take a 10 million per year cap hit on a guy just to have him as a decoy in the red zone.

And yes, I'm certain Wilson's height makes this more difficult for him than for a taller QB of equal skill. It's going to be harder to see Graham over the middle than to see the back corner routes and throw there. Not impossible, just harder. Simple geometry.

Stimulating post.

Now that I think about it, I think I recall reading that that there was some concern that Matt Ungar would occlude some of the six foot Brees' sight lines thus impairing his passing. And, someone wrote that this was the reason the the Saints preferred shorter guards to that Brees could see over them better. From the sight lines perspective, it makes sense that, other things being equal, one should distribute one's offensive linemen by height, like a hammock, with the tallest guys on the ends, and the shortest at center.

Centers: Britt is six six, Hunt six two, Pericak six three. Britt is an outlier here, but you take talent where you find it, and other things are not equal with Britt in particular, with him being an ex-wrestler his mind knows a lot about taking guys to the ground, and he is good at it. Guys on the ground do not block sighting lines.

Guards: Glowinski six four, Jordan Roos six three. Our pure guards are shorter.

Guards/Tackles: Aboushi six five, Ifedi six five, Joeckel six six, Odhiambo six four, Pocic six six. Our hybrid guards/tackles run from six four to six six. Odhiambo is a little short for tackle, but has good feet, etc.

Tackles: Brown six five, Fant six five, Senior six five, Tyrus Thompson six five, Matt Tobin six six. Our pure tackles run from six five to six six.

So the "Hammock Effect" is not large, but the pattern is there on average.

And, all quarterbacks benefit from the hammock effect. which, due to geometry, increases with quarterback shortness.

Well said.

And agreed.

As someone else said - it's basic geometry.

RW is short and that likely causes some issues with his ability to see all available options in the red zone.

And yet no proof or facts to support this. LOL

 

[chris98251]

For those of us that have short spouses we know it is a fact, asked can you reach up and get this or that or is there something on the top shelf because she can't see it, asked if you can see something standing in a crowd when they can't that's proof short people are at a disadvantage in given situations when taller people are in front of them and when their perception cuts off a field of vision.

 

[KiwiHawk]

And all this would be appropriately valid if the QB's eyes were on top of his helmet instead of in the middle of his face. Once you factor in that minor error in geometric calculations, you soon come to the conclusion that NO qb can see a 6'7" receiver who is 10 yards in front of a 6'5" lineman if he has to look over the lineman's head.

A 6' tall man cannot see over a 6' tall fence because his eyes are around 5" below the height of the fence.

The ultimate conclusion is that ALL qbs must use sight lines to see their targets and throwing lanes to hit those targets.

 

[Anthony!]

For those of us that have short spouses we know it is a fact, asked can you reach up and get this or that or is there something on the top shelf because she can't see it, asked if you can see something standing in a crowd when they can't that's proof short people are at a disadvantage in given situations when taller people are in front of them and when their perception cuts off a field of vision.

Thats great but we are talking about a Qb sitting 7 yards behind their line look for people 10 years down field so thanks but not a true correlation. Again we go back to Breese who is 1 inch taller and has had no problems due to height. Enough said

 

[Anthony!]

And all this would be appropriately valid if the QB's eyes were on top of his helmet instead of in the middle of his face. Once you factor in that minor error in geometric calculations, you soon come to the conclusion that NO qb can see a 6'7" receiver who is 10 yards in front of a 6'5" lineman if he has to look over the lineman's head.

A 6' tall man cannot see over a 6' tall fence because his eyes are around 5" below the height of the fence.

The ultimate conclusion is that ALL qbs must use sight lines to see their targets and throwing lanes to hit those targets.

Agreed the key being ALL

 

[Josea16]

The Kearse red zone targets are an abomination. That is one thing that will make me grit my teeth about Russ unless bevell is making him throw those. Audible out and just kneel down ffs

It's why I him gone as soon as possible he's wide open for a reason and it's not for a good one.

 

[chris98251]

For those of us that have short spouses we know it is a fact, asked can you reach up and get this or that or is there something on the top shelf because she can't see it, asked if you can see something standing in a crowd when they can't that's proof short people are at a disadvantage in given situations when taller people are in front of them and when their perception cuts off a field of vision.

Thats great but we are talking about a Qb sitting 7 yards behind their line look for people 10 years down field so thanks but not a true correlation. Again we go back to Breese who is 1 inch taller and has had no problems due to height. Enough said

Brees has a blocking scheme that was developed to give him throwing lanes, were still working on what pass protection here is.

 

[Anthony!]

For those of us that have short spouses we know it is a fact, asked can you reach up and get this or that or is there something on the top shelf because she can't see it, asked if you can see something standing in a crowd when they can't that's proof short people are at a disadvantage in given situations when taller people are in front of them and when their perception cuts off a field of vision.

Thats great but we are talking about a Qb sitting 7 yards behind their line look for people 10 years down field so thanks but not a true correlation. Again we go back to Breese who is 1 inch taller and has had no problems due to height. Enough said

Brees has a blocking scheme that was developed to give him throwing lanes, were still working on what pass protection here is.

actually all qbs need throwing lanes, so once again were back to no fact to support sieze being an issue, and more ove RW having an issue with it.

 

[Hawks46]

Be nice to see some plays that utilize the physical advantages of the other players (Graham's height for example) to simplify things in the red zone.

But, But, that would be the expected thing to do, much better to throw to a FB blocking for you in the flat, they won't see that coming.

Funny thing is, half the time they don't. From Mike Rob all the way to last game...when we do utilize the FB pass to the flat from 5 yards and in, it's typically wide open.

 

[Hawks46]

RW gets more cautious BUT to be fair, all of our receivers (Graham included) are not physical attack the ball players.....it's why Kasen Williams makes so much more sense for our roster and why even the much maligned Chris Matthews had a TD in SB49....

Our WR's are good at "go routes", but there is no Julio Jones physicality or Antonio Gates that uses his frame in the redzone that knows positioning and can "box out" a defender......Richardson/Kearse/Baldwin/Graham are not bad players, just not physical players.

I think the drafting of Darboh and finding Moore was to see if one can address that and as much as McEvoy is a "jump-ball" king, he has a chance to be a factor.

Graham doesn't attack the ball ? I'd suggest you Youtube Graham's TD highlights. I've seen him catch passes with two defenders draped all over him and obviously PI'ing him, and he still gets it. Last year he had a play where he caught the ball on the one yard line and he executed a perfect basketball box out to get that ball. He had three plays last year where a defender was literally holding down one of his arms and Graham reached up and caught it one handed with the other.

He caught a TD against us that had three players on him.

While it's true that he had the "soft" moniker, he's become a much more physical blocker for us. Even then, he's always attacked the ball. He also doesn't shy away from contact after the catch, unless Kam Chancellor is back there. And plenty of guys make business decisions when Kam is back there bearing down on them.

McEvoy could be another one of those guys that can go and get the ball. The thing about Tanner is that so far, he's created good enough separation that he hasn't had to do that, but we did see some physicality in the KC game. He's also reputedly one of the best blocking WR's we have on the team.

 

[chris98251]

For those of us that have short spouses we know it is a fact, asked can you reach up and get this or that or is there something on the top shelf because she can't see it, asked if you can see something standing in a crowd when they can't that's proof short people are at a disadvantage in given situations when taller people are in front of them and when their perception cuts off a field of vision.

Thats great but we are talking about a Qb sitting 7 yards behind their line look for people 10 years down field so thanks but not a true correlation. Again we go back to Breese who is 1 inch taller and has had no problems due to height. Enough said

Brees has a blocking scheme that was developed to give him throwing lanes, were still working on what pass protection here is.

actually all qbs need throwing lanes, so once again were back to no fact to support sieze being an issue, and more ove RW having an issue with it.

So why did he fail in San Diego and succeed in New Orleans ? His height didn't change.

Wilson scrambles to create his sight lines a lot, essentially doing it just a different way. It's also why we run shot gun a lot so he has that extra look and isn't looking up Britts butt.

 

[TransGenderHawkFan]

Thats great but we are talking about a Qb sitting 7 yards behind their line look for people 10 years down field so thanks but not a true correlation. Again we go back to Breese who is 1 inch taller and has had no problems due to height. Enough said

Brees has a blocking scheme that was developed to give him throwing lanes, were still working on what pass protection here is.

actually all qbs need throwing lanes, so once again were back to no fact to support sieze being an issue, and more ove RW having an issue with it.

So why did he fail in San Diego and succeed in New Orleans ? His height didn't change.

Wilson scrambles to create his sight lines a lot, essentially doing it just a different way. It's also why we run shot gun a lot so he has that extra look and isn't looking up Britts butt.

Did Brees fail in SD? He was voted to the pro bowl and led his team to winning records. Brees was ousted from SD because of a pissing match between the HC and GM that led to his shoulder injury playing in a meaningless game. If Brees doesn't get hurt then I believe Rivers would have been traded. They weren't going to offer a big money contract to a player with a questionable shoulder injury.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

What Wilson does works, good enough.

 

[NINEster]

There's not a poster here whose sphincter doesn't tighten up once we are in the Red Zone.

I agree.

Last year, I had a feeling he would score at the end against Miami.

 

[mikeak]

I disagree if height was a big as issue as Huey and Duey are making it then tall QBs would be better, and short QBs would struggle but short QBs are good and bad as are big Qbs. IN other words height appears to not be a deliminator in the RZ since there are big and small QBs who are good and struggle. Now if most Big QBs were great and most little QBs were bad then maybe but since that is not the case the Height issue is a non issue. OR another way to think of it is, there is no evidence to support it is an issue, and some to say it is not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati ... _causation

With that said lets be clear - I am NC State alumni, I have watched RW since before most people on this board - heck I watched them "all" Tory Holt, Philip Rivers, Koren Robinson, Mario Williams and many many more. I am a big fan of RW and I think he can be very very good in the redzone with the right playcalling opening up option to run, pass or RB scoring. I think the team is playing way to predictable and conservative in the redzone and that is the main reason for why we are not scoring enough.

I still think being short in the redzone is a negative - that is being called not mutually exclusive.........