That loss has made me optimistic and I will not be deterred.

[RCATES]

I wish I was capable of ignoring what's right in front of me like so many of you here. Unless this team wins the SB this entire coaching staff has to go. Pete has made so many coaching blunders this year I've lost count. This defense has been historically bad the past two years and don't get it twisted this is Pete's defense and he should take the majority of the blame. This offense has been strangled by Pete's barbaric scheme for long enough. Bottom line is this team has done jack shit since 2013 and needs new leadership. Hard to believe its almost been 7 years since this team won it all.

 

[White Devil]

Until the second half, I truly thought that Pete Carroll had lost the team.

Moreover, I thought Russell Wilson was kinda done for the season. That he was an elite QB having a mediocre stretch of games - https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/news/al ... uesgetting greedy and ignoring checkdowns, as he has periodically throughout his career[/url] - while his receivers drop stuff and his line struggles to block a gust of wind.

I also thought the defense had had it. Too many injuries to cornerstone players, too many wasted spots on the defensive line, and did I mention injuries?

Then Wilson got a no-call while being late hit. And he got PISSED.

It was a different game after that. Coinciding with the offense quickly switching back to pass concepts that were workable with Wilson's love of rhythm and the gimpified O-line's love of being turnstiles, Seattle started getting stuff done. Guys started making catches count again. Lockett silenced the doubts that he's back. We remembered Hollister. Travis Homer proved himself a NICE little weapon in the passing game, sticky-handed and FAST. And, yes, of course, the Beast was Beasting when he got the chance.

The defense still struggled despite some tremendous individual efforts. I HATE seeing another good year from K.J. Wright go to waste (almost). Marquise Blair continued to suggest some hidden Kam in him, if he can ever become schematically sound. Shaquill still had a game-changing play or two in him when it mattered. Clowney? Well, they limited his snaps. That and Al Woods' suspension are going to be tough to overcome. He needs to be full-go next week.

It reminded me of where Pete's strengths lie.

If you're only now catching up to the fact that Pete's not good at clock management, you're eight years behind. We've all known this. It's not news. And frankly, he needs to get better. Seattle's talent quotient is not yet back up to the point where we can overcome that stuff.

Instead, Pete's strengths are player acquisition and inspiration, and it goes for a lot. Pete's ability to keep the team believing in themselves for sixty minutes - and his results, in the form of one-score comeback wins not just this season but in many past - gives him credibility. Players on many NFL teams quit in these situations. Duane Brown and Jadaveon Clowney, on the other hand, engineer their free-agent situations just to come here. They believe in the organization and its coach. I'll take that over the word of a bunch of forum randos and analytics smuglords who have never set foot on the field.

During the second half, Pete's depleted team outscored the peaking, fully healthy 49ers and came less than a yard from winning. Pete deserves blame for the loss. He also deserves credit for even being in that position in the first place. That dual-edged sword will always confound us. We'll never get a clear read on the guy's legacy.

But it reminded us all why it's never wise to count us out. And we're getting healthier next week.

:ditto:
Post of the Year on the final day of the year.

 

[xray]

Awesome 8) , I love it. Let's jump right into it then.

Great. Let's recall though, the claim was that the 49ers were missing more starters than the Seahawks, and you objected to that claim.

First off, to start, since the Regular Season the 49ers, by my count have had 16 players injured. The Seahawks have had 19. Click https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/SEA/seattle-seahawks/injuries/ and https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/SF/san-francisco-49ers/injuries/ if you want to correct me or verify.

Since the Preseason, the 49ers have had 19 injuries, the Seahawks have had 22. I mentioned prior to the Regular season first though because...well..after the preseason players get cut right? Okay, let's move on.

Okay, sure, whatever. It has nothing to do with who was missing more starters in Week 17 but okay.

FWIW I didn't just look at IR because I think it really strains credulity for me to insist that Shawn Poindexter was some backbreaking loss for the 49ers or Adam Choice was some backbreaking loss for the Seahawks. :lol:

As we both know, every team's IR list includes guys who never really mattered to begin with, making straight counts of IR lists really noisy and beside the point.

I for one love to "weasal" count. Why? Because context matters. By analyzing the injuries in and of themselves, we get to factor in logic and reason as well, not just 3rd grade arithmetic :lol: . So I'm going to do what you really, probably don't want me to do. I'm going to "weasal" count my butt off, factoring in snap-counts especially. Hear we go:

So what you're saying is that rather than arguing the point we were arguing you'd instead now rather argue a different point? Okay, but not sure what that has to do with you objecting to my statement that the 9ers were down more starters than the Seahawks. :lol:

Comparing Deebo Samuel's non-serious shoulder injury to Clowney's significant core injury (in addition to getting over the flu) makes no sense, but fine, let's ignore that.

Yes, my point was that in a question of how many starters were missing counting Clowney (who played all game) in a discussion of missing starters didn't make any sense.

As for who was *more* injured however, if we did that we'd want an objective measure, not just weasel counting to get to desired conclusions. Clowney was a limited participant in practice all week, which is why I offered one of the 49ers limited participants in practice all week to make the point that you can't just start throwing guys who played the full game into the discussion based on limited practice participation for one team and not the other because it's convenient in the moment for you to do so.

Duane Brown, Britt = Richburg and Jones. I actually think the former losses hurt more than the latter, but I'm biased. So fair.

Diggs = Tartt? Okay. I would argue Diggs significantly transforms our defense in comparison. But fine, trade-off there.

Kwon Alexander is a big loss. Perhaps, equal to Chris Carson in terms of impact? Okay cool.

In my statement I very consciously did not make any claim about which missing starters were more important or of greater impact.

That wasn't because I'm afraid of doing so, but rather, because it's so subjective what's the point? You're a Seahawks fan and I'm a 49ers fan, and as fans of course we're both prone to overrating our own players. There's no right answer to a subjective question we both want to get our finger on the scale for, so I stuck with the easily measurable thing.

Dee Ford and Jones?

Yep, those were the other two.

In addition to Goodwin??...

Let's start with Goodwin. Since week 6, his snap count fell significantly from 60% to 10%, and never rose to 35% after. That may have had something to do with...I'm guessing the trade of a STUD wide receiver in Emmanuel Sanders? Oh, nevermind let's ignore that context. Goodwin was a "Starter" so his loss was very impactful.

I didn't count Goodwin, even though he was the starter earlier in the season before getting injured and going on IR, which you're documenting through your snap counts. As for Sanders, yes, that's precisely why I didn't count Goodwin! My thinking was that even if Goodwin had been healthy Sanders would have still overtaken him on the depth chart after the trade. So you agree with me that I'm counting fairly I guess. :lol:

Dissly, Luke Willson, and Dickson hurts more, but fine I'll bite.

I counted Dissly.

I didn't count Wilson and Dickson because I was counting starters. If you want to count #2 TEs you have to count Garrett Celek too. I didn't count him for the same reason I didn't count other non-#1 TEs. Why aren't you counting him?

(It's because you only want to do one-sided counting, which defeats the entire point of counting to begin with).

It's also hilarious that you dismissed Kendricks and Al Woods.

I "dismissed" Kendricks and Al Woods in counting how many starters each team had because (1) Kendricks played through the 3rd quarter of a game he supposedly wasn't playing in, and (2) Al Woods is...wait for it...not a starter.

Al Woods had 7 games where his snap count was over 50%, and 10 games where his snap count was over 40 %. He wasn't just a "rotational piece." He was SIGNIFICANT.

Is "SIGNIFICANT" just a fancy way to say not a starter? He's a rotational player. It's why I said if you want to bring in rotational players we have to start counting Ronald Blair, Damontre Moore, and Julian Taylor too, but it would take a lot more work to start throwing a bunch of rotational players and second and third stringers who are now injured into the pot, which neither of us seem willing to do (why I said if you want to go through all the backups for both teams have at it, and I'll correct and retract my statement about backups if it's wrong). Suspiciously it seems like you're solely invested in counting Seahawks rotational pieces and backups though, which I guess is cool for an apples to oranges comparison, but doesn't really help us here. :snack:

In comparison, Dee Ford only had TWO GAMES where his snap count exceeded 40%. Context doesn't matter though, right?

Yes. Dee Ford was injured in the pre-season and as Shanahan said repeatedly from the start of the season onward he had him on a pitch count and basically limited to 3rd downs because of his injury, until he missed two games, came back for two snaps, and then missed the last three games.

Your argument is that Dee Ford has been too injured to count as injured?

Or your argument is that the 49ers gave Dee Ford 18 million per year but just chose to not play him and him being significantly injured all year has just been some big sham? :?

Mychal Kendricks snap count exceeded more than 60% in 11 of his 14 games. That's more of an impact than DJ Jones, who never exceeded 50%. :lol: :lol:

You know which other game Mychal Kendricks had 54% of the snaps in? The game he played. The game you want to count him as not playing in...

So let's recap. So far, I've highlighted what actually matters. That the Seahawks not only have more injuries overall. They have lost more IMPACT PLAYERS than the Niners. Players that are a MAJOR part of the gameplan in each and every game.

So what actually matters is not the statement I made and the statement you objected to, but the shifting of the goalposts to something subjective that you'd now rather we be arguing about instead?

Again, I consciously made a point to not argue impact because it's a frothy sloppy homer mess of an argument between fans of different teams, and I'd honestly rather walk into traffic than get in a long argument about if Al Woods or Ronald Blair matter more. :lol:

Ten posts after that WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ARGUING ABOUT if Shawn Poindexter or Adam Choice matter more, and NOBODY wants that. :lol: :lol:

If you like, I can go into others. Even Malik Turner, a 4th string WR, Josh Gordon, and Penny had relatively significant snap counts. Enough that their losses hurt, a lot. I took the time to look over some of the Niners injuries and the relative snaps/impact, and it doesn't compare. But feel free to dissect and follow up with your own research. I love to dig into the details.

You say it doesn't compare, but you have zero interest in actually doing the work of making the actual comparison. I don't either. It's precisely why I'm not making "it doesn't compare" arguments.

You're right, every fan thinks their team is the more injured. But you wanna know why the media is focusing on the injuries the Seahawks and Eagles have faced, in comparison to the Patriots, Titans, and yes, even the Niners?? Because analysts are taking into account the impact of these injuries. The fact of the matter is, the Niners have far more key players healthy in comparison to the Seahawks.

I honestly have zero interest in getting in fights over subjective claims about what "the media" is saying. Sorry.

In terms of injury all I've been seeing is how injured the Eagles are. I mean, there's been a lot of news about Quandre coming back, and congrats for that (an important piece to the defense), but I've seen much more news about the loss of Juan Thornhill for the Chiefs than Mychal Kendricks for the Seahawks. See you how arguing any which way you want on subjective stuff is fun? The problem is it rarely tends to go anywhere.


As for "the fact of the matter", you certainly have a right to your opinion and I do not object to you holding your opinions, but I do object to you calling your opinions facts. It's why when debating across fandom sticking to facts that don't slip into weasel counting (e.g. me not counting Goodwin when I could have because I thought it more fair not to) is useful, IMO.

If you want to purposely ignore, or dismiss that fine. But basic math is for 5th graders, context matters too. You have all of your key offensive weapons, and most of your key players on defense. No comparison.

Cheers :irishdrinkers:

I agree that context matters.

You seem singularly invested in context mattering for the Seahawks though.

For reasons that are entirely unknown beyond it benefiting your argument you now seem to have decided that offensive weapons is what really matters.

For reasons that are entirely unknown the 9ers two major FA acquisitions who they're spending 33 million in cap space on now don't count as "key players."

There is "no comparison" because you are running amok on subjective, non-equally applied, wishy-washy drek in order to reach your desired conclusion.

Remember though, I said that the 9ers were missing more starters than the Seahawks last week. That's what you objected to.

Again, DT, DE, MLB, SS, C, G vs. LT, C, TE, RB, FS.

The rest of this is just noisy goal post shifting. :lol:

How about this: Last week the Seahawks and 49ers were both missing around 1/4 of their starters due to injury?

We'll squish 22% and 27% into around 25%. :lol: :lol:

What the heck ever. The statement still stands. :lol:

:2thumbs: :irishdrinkers:

So this is about who has the most WIMPS on their respective teams ?

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Both Popeye and Scorpion have good points.

Point being, injuries to starters AND rotational players matter. It matters when they're injured too. It matters how much of an impact player each is. Quant/qual both matter.

Without Kittle playing like he is, they're not the same team. We haven't beat a healthy (well relatively healthy) Kittle for over a year. We lost to them last December, too.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Establishing which of these two teams is injured at this point, is like comparing rings of hell. They're both amongst the most damaged.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Remember this--Coach is a genius at second-half adjustment. If we ever suck hard in the first half, I know we just need to stay close because the explosion will go down in the second half. He's also a great rah-rah guy during halftime. It is him and Wilson that are responsible for our record of close wins and fourth-quarter wins.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

He definitely is, but I don't get why he has to shoot his own dick off for the first half of every game, lol. Second-half success for us is usually just opening up the playbook more than actually reacting to what a defense is giving us.

 

[olyfan63]

I felt like the 49ers were *slightly* healthier than the Hawks going in, but by a small, subjective margin. Not a point worth arguing. More like the 27% vs 22% argument. Plus that's only visible, listed injuries, while probably a few more players have nagging issues that slow them down but don't rise to the injury report level. Plus, the first significant injury makes that team the more injured. Kittle wrenches an ankle and has to leave? Advantage Seahawks. Tyler Lockett gets concussed and has to leave? Advantage 49ers. (or Jacob Hollister, similar scenario, those 2 guys are who Russell looks for when he's in trouble, and *sometimes* DK Metcalf.)

Moot point, and some great info shared.

We were going to have a WildCard Weekend game instead of a bye week game either way. I think the way it turned out provides Seattle the most viable path to the NFCCG. We'll root for the Vikes to get hot and Kirk Cousins to come alive and give us a home playoff game. (Not holding my breath)

Some other positive outcomes from this game... Pete is now forced to review some of his game management issues, especially how he handles crunch time situations. Travis Homer and Cody Barton got a few more game reps. We found that Beastmode still has at least some tread left on the tires. John Ursua shows he can get open and make catches at crunch time.

 

[RolandDeschain]

If Diggs plays for us this weekend, that's a HUGE boost to our defense. We even run a different scheme with him in, lol; like the days of eld with the glorious legion of boom.

 

[RCATES]

If Diggs plays for us this weekend, that's a HUGE boost to our defense. We even run a different scheme with him in, lol; like the days of eld with the glorious legion of boom.

This clearly shows Pete has lost his ability to study and draft guys that will fit his system.

 

[Largent80]

Man I want a re-match with the Santa Claras. They will rue the day they got the #1 seed, which the Hawks will reclaim.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

No doubt, love the confidence. All we heard all week from the media and MANY of their own fans etc. was how the Hawks were gonna' get smoked. NO, there were not. They never were going to get smoked. Game could have went either way and literally was less than a foot from getting the Hawks a division title.
They clearly match up well and/or get up for games with the Niners.

 

[Seahwkgal]

I wish I was capable of ignoring what's right in front of me like so many of you here. Unless this team wins the SB this entire coaching staff has to go. Pete has made so many coaching blunders this year I've lost count. This defense has been historically bad the past two years and don't get it twisted this is Pete's defense and he should take the majority of the blame. This offense has been strangled by Pete's barbaric scheme for long enough. Bottom line is this team has done jack $h!t since 2013 and needs new leadership. Hard to believe its almost been 7 years since this team won it all.

:laugh:
WOW, just WOW.
:34853_doh:

 

[Largent80]

I wish I was capable of ignoring what's right in front of me like so many of you here. Unless this team wins the SB this entire coaching staff has to go. Pete has made so many coaching blunders this year I've lost count. This defense has been historically bad the past two years and don't get it twisted this is Pete's defense and he should take the majority of the blame. This offense has been strangled by Pete's barbaric scheme for long enough. Bottom line is this team has done jack $h!t since 2013 and needs new leadership. Hard to believe its almost been 7 years since this team won it all.

Hahahahahahaha.....Hahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Uhearditherefirst]

That second half offense was sexy. We were carving them up. We literally couldn’t be stopped on each drive after the 1st half. I may be overreacting but it was the best I’d seen of the offense all season and the literal definition of getting something great out of a loss.

If Hawks would just do more up tempo in the first half and possibly get lynch out on the edge where he may be more effective. I may be wrong here but I swear when lynch was rumbling toward Shermans side it looked like Sherman wanted nothing to do with him. Appeared to sidestep and allow others to get him when he had best shot

 

[SoulfishHawk]

So much salt, but so par for the course. Winning all the time really sucks.

 

[scutterhawk]

I wish I was capable of ignoring what's right in front of me like so many of you here. Unless this team wins the SB this entire coaching staff has to go. Pete has made so many coaching blunders this year I've lost count. This defense has been historically bad the past two years and don't get it twisted this is Pete's defense and he should take the majority of the blame. This offense has been strangled by Pete's barbaric scheme for long enough. Bottom line is this team has done jack $h!t since 2013 and needs new leadership. Hard to believe its almost been 7 years since this team won it all.

:laugh:
WOW, just WOW.
:34853_doh:

Forgive him 'Seahawkgal', for he KNOWS NOT what he hell he speaketh of.