Santa Clara vs Arizona

[Popeyejones]

This.

Officiating conspiracies are literally the lowest form of fandom.

TBF though I'd take the full tinfoil hatters over the low information fans who just whine about officiating week in and week out though, as at least they conspiracy nutters are good for a laugh.

They get thrown around and used as an excuse way too often, but those who believe they never happen are woefully ignorant of the number of times officials/referees/etc. have actually been caught red-handed fixing games/matches/etc. throughout sports history.

It does happen, and with a sport with such subjective rules built into it all over the rule book, the NFL is an easy place to do it in.

Yes. Find me the person who is up in arms and is naming the name of the particular NFL ref or colluding group of refs who is/are point shaving for personal gain and I'll honestly and sincerely be all ears.

While the point you're making is entirely valid (and I agree with it), it's a total non-issue because not a single conspiracy nutter is actually making this claim when conspiracy nutting.

They are, instead, completely indifferent to this because it doesn't help or hurt any particular team, and they're only in the nutting business to begin with to whine about why their favorite team isn't the best team week in and week out, and to convince themselves that even when their favorite team loses their still the best team, and are just being held down for nutter reasons that lack any internal logic or consistency.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^^ Oh yeah, we're very much on the same page on both counts.

I'd be *shocked* if it has never happened in the NFL. :2thumbs:

 

[bmorepunk]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

 

[RolandDeschain]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

Right, but if one can happen so can the other. Unless you believe the world we live in to be some perfect altruistic place where no one's subject to bribery and/or influence.

 

[Marvin49]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

Right, but if one can happen so can the other. Unless you believe the world we live in to be some perfect altruistic place where no one's subject to bribery and/or influence.

I buy individual refs taking $$$, etc, but I just don't buy into the idea that the league would push legacy teams by paying off refs. That's just a step too far for me.

Of course Bribery/Influence is a real thing....and don't get me started on current political evidence...ahem....but a league wide conspiracy to propel the teams they want?

Don't buy it...especially since the 32 teams are all independent franchises who would take issue with such practices.

 

[bmorepunk]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

Right, but if one can happen so can the other. Unless you believe the world we live in to be some perfect altruistic place where no one's subject to bribery and/or influence.

This isn't about "altruism". Just because something is conceivable and technically possible doesn't make it reasonably probable.

Marvin's right here; Donaghy's case is pretty simple. Dude has the position and takes advantage of it; he's the only bad actor in the league involved in his scheme.

When you start adding in people, conspiracies get really hard to run and implement for very long without anybody finding out. If you're unscrupulous enough to get involved in something like this, you're probably not the kind of person who's good enough at thinking things through and covering it up to get away with it as time progresses. When you start adding in additional bad actors it gets really hard to keep it locked down at all. It's a really low probability situation. What's far more likely is that NFL officials are humans who make mistakes and that fans of teams are more likely than that really subjective in their own assessments. But it's far easier to go the conspiracy angle because one may have to admit that it's not easy to get calls right and confront one's own biased view of reality.

Sometimes refs are biased, whether they know it or not, because they may like/not like particular players or coaches. And that can be unfair. But that's not a league conspiracy, it's more humans being human.

I got into this on this board some time ago, and one of the things I talked about was the professions of the NFL officials. It includes judges, lawyers, law enforcement, and others who are generally in positions of public trust, such as high school principals. The idea that all of these people are somehow part of a criminal conspiracy and are able to keep it quiet is absurd.

It's possible, but absurd.

 

[NINEster]

Didn't watch the ending but that PI call on ARZ was absolutely pathetic. Im speechless. There is no doubt in my mind the NFL wants SF to get that 1 seed and win the Owl.

It's about time.

For whatever reason we weren't sexy 2011-2013....

 

[Maulbert]

Didn't watch the ending but that PI call on ARZ was absolutely pathetic. Im speechless. There is no doubt in my mind the NFL wants SF to get that 1 seed and win the Owl.

It's about time.

For whatever reason we weren't sexy 2011-2013....

It was Harbaugh and his khakis.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

^^^^ Oh yeah, we're very much on the same page on both counts.

I'd be *shocked* if it has never happened in the NFL. :2thumbs:

It did, Super Bowl XL*. I think Leavy came out several years later and apologized to divert attention from a situation where they made well-timed calls to benefit the stealers. Saying you "had a bad day" puts the onus on your performance and deflects attention away from the refs ability to, as it's called here often, "steer" the game. Not even sure that it was anything beyond being chosen with this purpose in mind as game officials who had a rooting interest in the stealer franchise. I mean they do collect a nice paycheck for being part of the crew at the SB so there's that too. I think this was the influence of Dan Rooney at the time who was the real commissioner back then. Beginning with the first seconds of the pregame, 75% or more of the TV coverage was stealers. The Hawks were nothing more than sacrificial lambs to the almighty stealer dynasty that day and worth barely a mention. It all was so very scripted.

I also think the Tuck Rule game was totally an obscure rule that New York (Bahgdad Mike?) found after a frantic search in order to screw the Raiders because the rest of the owners hated Al Davis since he sued them all ("the league") successfully and cost them money.

None of this is to say I believe this goes on regularly but I believe there are instances where officials have undo influence over games, usually subconsciously but in rare instances like these, not.

 

[chris98251]

Yep, I know...and I'm not one of said nuts, and even referenced the fact that it gets used as an excuse all the time. I'm just sayin', it does happen. In the NBA, Tim Donaghy is an infamous and proven example. The NFL is harder to gauge this kind of thing on due to the nature of the game, but... https://www.moldea.com/gamefixing.html

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

Right, but if one can happen so can the other. Unless you believe the world we live in to be some perfect altruistic place where no one's subject to bribery and/or influence.

This isn't about "altruism". Just because something is conceivable and technically possible doesn't make it reasonably probable.

Marvin's right here; Donaghy's case is pretty simple. Dude has the position and takes advantage of it; he's the only bad actor in the league involved in his scheme.

When you start adding in people, conspiracies get really hard to run and implement for very long without anybody finding out. If you're unscrupulous enough to get involved in something like this, you're probably not the kind of person who's good enough at thinking things through and covering it up to get away with it as time progresses. When you start adding in additional bad actors it gets really hard to keep it locked down at all. It's a really low probability situation. What's far more likely is that NFL officials are humans who make mistakes and that fans of teams are more likely than that really subjective in their own assessments. But it's far easier to go the conspiracy angle because one may have to admit that it's not easy to get calls right and confront one's own biased view of reality.

Sometimes refs are biased, whether they know it or not, because they may like/not like particular players or coaches. And that can be unfair. But that's not a league conspiracy, it's more humans being human.

I got into this on this board some time ago, and one of the things I talked about was the professions of the NFL officials. It includes judges, lawyers, law enforcement, and others who are generally in positions of public trust, such as high school principals. The idea that all of these people are somehow part of a criminal conspiracy and are able to keep it quiet is absurd.

It's possible, but absurd.

So absurd that the Chicago Police, Mayors and Judges and D.A were on Capones payroll, New York Police and Mayor on the Mobs payroll, at times people in Vegas on the Mobs payroll, Horse Betting scandals for fixing, Boxing scandals for taking dives or forcing them to. Nope no history at all, lets get current with CEO's and corporations falsely stating sales and revenue for stock manipulations as well. Then we can get to the politicians.


You say Tin Foil hat I say it happens and it's just hard to prove and with Gambling prominent now in the NFL it's will eventually.

 

[bmorepunk]

Donaghy was not part of a league conspiracy. Betting on games them moving them yourself to get the desired result is not the NBA telling officials to fix games for "legacy teams".

Right, but if one can happen so can the other. Unless you believe the world we live in to be some perfect altruistic place where no one's subject to bribery and/or influence.

This isn't about "altruism". Just because something is conceivable and technically possible doesn't make it reasonably probable.

Marvin's right here; Donaghy's case is pretty simple. Dude has the position and takes advantage of it; he's the only bad actor in the league involved in his scheme.

When you start adding in people, conspiracies get really hard to run and implement for very long without anybody finding out. If you're unscrupulous enough to get involved in something like this, you're probably not the kind of person who's good enough at thinking things through and covering it up to get away with it as time progresses. When you start adding in additional bad actors it gets really hard to keep it locked down at all. It's a really low probability situation. What's far more likely is that NFL officials are humans who make mistakes and that fans of teams are more likely than that really subjective in their own assessments. But it's far easier to go the conspiracy angle because one may have to admit that it's not easy to get calls right and confront one's own biased view of reality.

Sometimes refs are biased, whether they know it or not, because they may like/not like particular players or coaches. And that can be unfair. But that's not a league conspiracy, it's more humans being human.

I got into this on this board some time ago, and one of the things I talked about was the professions of the NFL officials. It includes judges, lawyers, law enforcement, and others who are generally in positions of public trust, such as high school principals. The idea that all of these people are somehow part of a criminal conspiracy and are able to keep it quiet is absurd.

It's possible, but absurd.

So absurd that the Chicago Police, Mayors and Judges and D.A were on Capones payroll, New York Police and Mayor on the Mobs payroll, at times people in Vegas on the Mobs payroll, Horse Betting scandals for fixing, Boxing scandals for taking dives or forcing them to. Nope no history at all, lets get current with CEO's and corporations falsely stating sales and revenue for stock manipulations as well. Then we can get to the politicians.


You say Tin Foil hat I say it happens and it's just hard to prove and with Gambling prominent now in the NFL it's will eventually.

Al Capone was arrested by the FBI over 90 years ago, in the same year in which the first commercial transatlantic air service was provided. Two years after the first "talkie", a motion picture with recorded sound. We don't live in that world any more. The Luchesse crime family would be a better example since it existed in living memory of actual people who are still alive in real numbers and the time period is relatively modern.

The problem with using the mob reference here is it requires violence and the threat thereof to back up. That gets into even more absurd territory in the modern age given the relative lack of corruption and information technology we have compared to those old times and the size of the conspiracy.

 

[IndyHawk]

^^^^ Oh yeah, we're very much on the same page on both counts.

I'd be *shocked* if it has never happened in the NFL. :2thumbs:

It did, Super Bowl XL*. I think Leavy came out several years later and apologized to divert attention from a situation where they made well-timed calls to benefit the stealers. Saying you "had a bad day" puts the onus on your performance and deflects attention away from the refs ability to, as it's called here often, "steer" the game. Not even sure that it was anything beyond being chosen with this purpose in mind as game officials who had a rooting interest in the stealer franchise. I mean they do collect a nice paycheck for being part of the crew at the SB so there's that too. I think this was the influence of Dan Rooney at the time who was the real commissioner back then. Beginning with the first seconds of the pregame, 75% or more of the TV coverage was stealers. The Hawks were nothing more than sacrificial lambs to the almighty stealer dynasty that day and worth barely a mention. It all was so very scripted.

I also think the Tuck Rule game was totally an obscure rule that New York (Bahgdad Mike?) found after a frantic search in order to screw the Raiders because the rest of the owners hated Al Davis since he sued them all ("the league") successfully and cost them money.

None of this is to say I believe this goes on regularly but I believe there are instances where officials have undo influence over games, usually subconsciously but in rare instances like these, not.

XL is an example ..The Saints bountygate game against Favre.They wanted the Saints in
that year because of Katrina is another.We could go back even further to Raiders/Steelers
in which there was two infractions on the immaculate reception.Steering is real and ugly.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

So absurd that the Chicago Police, Mayors and Judges and D.A were on Capones payroll, New York Police and Mayor on the Mobs payroll, at times people in Vegas on the Mobs payroll, Horse Betting scandals for fixing, Boxing scandals for taking dives or forcing them to. Nope no history at all, lets get current with CEO's and corporations falsely stating sales and revenue for stock manipulations as well. Then we can get to the politicians.


You say Tin Foil hat I say it happens and it's just hard to prove and with Gambling prominent now in the NFL it's will eventually.

Al Capone was arrested by the FBI over 90 years ago, in the same year in which the first commercial transatlantic air service was provided. Two years after the first "talkie", a motion picture with recorded sound. We don't live in that world any more. The Luchesse crime family would be a better example since it existed in living memory of actual people who are still alive in real numbers and the time period is relatively modern.

The problem with using the mob reference here is it requires violence and the threat thereof to back up. That gets into even more absurd territory in the modern age given the relative lack of corruption and information technology we have compared to those old times and the size of the conspiracy.

You're right; that was long ago. Technology has improved by leaps and bounds. Used to be you had to meet in person or send in one of your goons. Now, technically you could get someone to send a message a lot of other ways to blackmail, crowd-shame, out, or bribe someone to do something, but luckily society has improved by leaps and bounds too. So much so there are almost no scandals and no bad behavior anymore. There are no more hugely influential families doing business, no one is suspected of a huge pedophile ring involving many influential, political, and royal individuals, or hangs hangs himself after that using toilet paper while the video feed to his jail cell mysteriously cuts out, and politicians are so pure and honest now that it's all so boring with nothing going on. It's absurd, given the total lack of corruption and conspiracies we're seeing today.

 

[Popeyejones]

Anyhoo...

I'm perfectly fine with the DPI call against Taylor, and would be perfectly fine with that call being made against my own team on defense too.

Taylor was playing over top on a wheel route and instead of attacking the catch point he basically slowed down and boxed out Juice from getting there. People are reacting to Juice acting like he was trying to jump over Taylor's back to get to the ball (and he's clearly just selling what was happening, not actually trying to make a catch that's 3-5 yard down the field) but if you watch the full play in real time it's pretty obvious what Taylor's strategy is. The pass was where it was supposed to be and if Juice wasn't impeded it would have been contested at the catch point (and likely incomplete) but Taylor made a savy play and was trying to get away with something and just didn't.

You see CBs do this same thing from time to time on deep sideline shots, but TBF you don't see them do it too often because it gets called. It's mostly rare because with that leverage it's easy to get a PBU if not a pick instead of taking the risk of getting called for DPI by preventing the receiver from getting to the catch point.

If it's any consolation tho the three DPI calls against Sherman were all legit, and I'm fine with the holding call on Richburg that brought that 9ers TD back and that 9ers fans are all upset about after Moose was complaining about it on the broadcast (that doesn't get called sometimes, but it was clearly holding and it's much more likely to get called given his body positioning -- it sucked because it brought a TD back but I'm perfectly fine with that call).

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I'm sure you're pretty happy with the "first down" at the end too :lol:

 

[Washington49er]

I'm sure you're pretty happy with the "first down" at the end too :lol:

9-1

Why is it if the Hawks win it's skill but if the 49ers win it was the zebras?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, that's how it is. Keep telling yourself that. The media built your win on Sunday as "gutsy" etc. Every time the Hawks win a close game, they are somehow a lucky team.
F the Niners.

 

[Washington49er]

Yeah, that's how it is. Keep telling yourself that. The media built your win on Sunday as "gutsy" etc. Every time the Hawks win a close game, they are somehow a lucky team.
F the Niners.

Aw, you getting mad bro?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

27-24, 10 of the last 11. Not mad at all. Take a peek in the mirror. But hey, spend all your time on a SEAHAWKS site. It's just too bad that KJ didn't get that easy pick 6 to end the game in regulation. Jimmy G was scared, you know it and everyone knows it.