Richie Incognito VS Jonathan Martin Texts released

[-The Glove-]

incognito got what he deserved? i respect almost everything ive seen you write on here kearly so dont feel im attacking your opinion. but like you said, there was a lot miss understood about all this. maybe theres big pieces im missing out of this but take a look at this piece for example (admittedly could somehow be media fabricated as well)

"Martin then said in a text on the same day, "Yeah I'm good man. It's insane bro but just know I don't blame you guys at all its just the culture around football and the locker room got to me a little … Btw … never check yourself into a mental hospital."

these are not the kind of things i say to a guy whos to blame. personally i cant even imagine talking to a guy like this who sincerely hurt my feelings, the guy that sends me to a mental breaking point is not the guy im joking about going to a mental hospital with, just does not add up. maybe incognito is a pos in his own right, but i dont agree (from what i know) with all the justification for incognitos punishment in this situation.

we are talking about grown men, not children. martin is not 12 years old, hes a big boy. and no, you dont just keep firing right back to that extent...If someone were to give me that much crap i certainly wouldnt be texting him that much, 40 pages of texts just cause he didnt know what else to do? are you kidding me.. thats just weird if you ask me. im not in defense of bullying but the real issue is martins mental health and that is not a product of this situation other than it coming to light from it. but thats just my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Incognito deserves an apology IMO

All I'm going to say is that I've been in this exact same situation myself and it is far more complex than you think. Again, it wasn't just Incognito that turned on Martin, it was the entire OL group. In my experience, the one guy who was the worst hazer for me was also the only guy who tried to be my friend. I still hated his guts, but it was what it was. When your worst enemy is also your best friend, it kind of makes for a pretty screwed up relationship. I think Incognito's punishment fit the crime, because his punishment probably won't end up amounting to much, and because his actions, though perhaps not ill-intentioned, hurt the team.

Have you never been harassed in an environment that felt inescapable to such extreme levels where you thought of killing people? If not, you wouldn't understand. It appears Martin hit that dangerous point, removed himself from the situation, sought mental help, and then when asked to "prove" why he did what he did, he made a mistake and intentionally took Incognito's statements out of context. After all, he had to prove why he did what he did, but it certainly seems plausible that revenge played a part in it too, in fact I suspect it did.

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

 

[kearly]

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

You know the expression "good cop, bad cop?" Imagine that but inside one person and you have the classic hazer.

 

[-The Glove-]

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

You know the expression "good cop, bad cop?" Imagine that but inside one person and you have the classic hazer.

Yes I'm familiar. Martin was giving it as much as he was taking it. What if Incognito cried about mistreatment?

 

[kearly]

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

You know the expression "good cop, bad cop?" Imagine that but inside one person and you have the classic hazer.

Yes I'm familiar. Martin was giving it as much as he was taking it. What if Incognito cried about mistreatment?

Martin was the guy taking it and trying to fight back. World of difference.

 

[-The Glove-]

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

You know the expression "good cop, bad cop?" Imagine that but inside one person and you have the classic hazer.

Yes I'm familiar. Martin was giving it as much as he was taking it. What if Incognito cried about mistreatment?

Martin was the guy taking it and trying to fight back. World of difference.

So you fight back by perpetuating the abuse?

 

[-The Glove-]

I can't say that I have...one things for sure though. If my tormentor texted me to see how I was doing, the last thing I would do is text him back. Not only did Martin text him back, he told Incognito he was good and didn't blame him for anything. This whole situation shows Martin's mental issues more than anything

You know the expression "good cop, bad cop?" Imagine that but inside one person and you have the classic hazer.

Yes I'm familiar. Martin was giving it as much as he was taking it. What if Incognito cried about mistreatment?

Martin was the guy taking it and trying to fight back. World of difference.

But if Incognito made a big fuss about it, based on the texts...you can make the same case for him being the victim

 

[kearly]

No disrespect, but please. Rookies do not haze 30 year old vets.

The world they live in is a world where you have to shove back when people shove you first. You just have to.

Incognito did not understand the harm he was causing. To him, it was just rough-housing. When Martin fought back, he interpreted it as rough-housing being returned. I guarantee that Incognito thought the returned texts were a form of brotherly love. Why else would he think Martin was his buddy? And maybe in that messed up little world where Martin had no friends other than his principle abuser, maybe he had vulnerable moments when he really needed a friend in that locker room and Incognito actually was his buddy for five minutes out of the day? Relationships like these are not black and white.

Anyway, the hazing went on too long and Martin snapped. End of story. I do not think that Incognito is pure evil nor do I think Martin was mistake free, but I do think this kind of situation is totally needless and should not be tolerated by coaches, the same way it is not tolerated in Seattle's locker room under Carroll's watch.

Hazing btw is absolutely not tolerated in several other areas of life, and a few years back it was even banned in the military. I'm actually kind of sickened to hear certain talking heads defending the practice, totally oblivious to the emotional and psychological strain it does to people.

To me, people that are insensitive to hazing are like those who were insensitive to soldiers with shell shock in WWII. They called them wimps, wussies and much worse, when in fact there was very real psychological damage that had been done to them, as we understand today medically. Hazing isn't as bad, but do it long enough, and people WILL snap. Everyone has a limit.

 

[-The Glove-]

No disrespect, but please. Rookies do not haze 30 year old vets.

The world they live in is a world where you have to shove back when people shove you first. You just have to.

Incognito did not understand the harm he was causing. To him, it was just rough-housing. When Martin fought back, he interpreted it as rough-housing being returned. I guarantee that Incognito thought the returned texts were a form of brotherly love. Why else would he think Martin was his buddy? And maybe in that messed up little world where Martin had no friends other than his principle abuser, maybe he had vulnerable moments when he really needed a friend in that locker room and Incognito actually was his buddy for five minutes out of the day? Relationships like these are not black and white.

Anyway, the hazing went on too long and Martin snapped. End of story. I do not think that Incognito is pure evil nor do I think Martin was mistake free, but I do think this kind of situation is totally needless and should not be tolerated by coaches, the same way it is not tolerated in Seattle's locker room under Carroll's watch.

Of course Incognito didn't understand the harm he was causing. His apparent victim never spoke up. I guess you can call me an asshole cuz I'd take it the same way as Incognito

 

[kearly]

I actually don't think Incognito was being an asshole, because in his world I don't think he realized the harm he was doing. I do think he was being kind of an idiot though.

Btw, I think you've missed half of every post I've made in this thread. Way too quick on the gun, lol.

Also, Martin did speak up, after removing himself from the team. I would think it's a safe assumption that Incognito knew damn well he was hazing Martin, I just don't think he knew the extent of the hurt he was causing or when to stop.

I agree with what some have said, that Martin should have taken care of business in house by confronting Incognito with his honest feelings or seeking a coach. I think as a 32 year old, that's what I would have done. But when I went through it personally, I was a 19 year old kid. Martin isn't much older than that. I didn't know how to handle it other than walking away at that age. But when Martin walked away, it drew media attention and questions were asked. Then Martin screwed up.

As said, I hope both are in the NFL next year. It would also be a nice ending if the NFL grew from this experience and became less tolerant of hazing.

 

[sturg78]

That looks like the texts I send my friends.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

I actually don't think Incognito was being an asshole, because in his world I don't think he realized the harm he was doing. I do think he was being kind of an idiot though.

Btw, I think you've missed half of every post I've made in this thread. Way too quick on the gun, lol.

Also, Martin did speak up, after removing himself from the team. I would think it's a safe assumption that Incognito knew damn well he was hazing Martin, I just don't think he knew the extent of the hurt he was causing or when to stop.

I agree with what some have said, that Martin should have taken care of business in house by confronting Incognito with his honest feelings or seeking a coach. I think as a 32 year old, that's what I would have done. But when I went through it personally, I was a 19 year old kid. Martin isn't much older than that. I didn't know how to handle it other than walking away at that age. But when Martin walked away, it drew media attention and questions were asked. Then Martin screwed up.

As said, I hope both are in the NFL next year. It would also be a nice ending if the NFL grew from this experience and became less tolerant of hazing.

im sorry man. the glove is right. youre stating this stuff like its majority opinion and this just isnt real life.

As we can all agree, even as martin said...right or WRONG bullying is going on in some kind of level in most nfl locker rooms, heck even chop chop (i think it was him or that safety) looked pretty darn scared of BB for whatever reason on the RRR. Out of all the players in the entire nfl over the history of the nfl how many cases like this have we seen? not a whole lot. Im sure youll say these things just go unreported or unidentified, and im sure youd be right to a certain extent. But the fact of the matter is, majority of people have never had issues like this. Statistically Martin is an exception, you are making it sound like Martin HAD to push back, or fire back, and you are simply wrong in the way you are stating that, majority of people dont have issues not texting back whether you agree or not.

But SOME people do not have the social skills required to handle real life situations like this, Martin handled this the way he did because he was inadequate in that department. Im not saying he did something wrong, because thats not his fault that mentally hes just not equipped to deal with it how he needed to.

I dont mean to say everything youre saying is wrong, because youve said you can relate to him, but you seem stuck on your own perspective (the exception) and not acknowledging how generally this would be handled. The fact of the matter is, majority of people DO NOT talk to people like that they have such an issue with. If you cant understand that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

imo, they were both victims to some extent, and its a little short sighted to say incognito was simply naive or a crappy guy. I agree with glove, he probably deserves an apology..i mean the guy was made out to be a racist for crying out loud, the only thing i can say for martin is there should be a better bullying/mental health policy for those who need it.