POLL: Russ or Fields

Russ or Fields

  • Russ

    Votes: 32 43.2%
  • Fields

    Votes: 42 56.8%

  • Total voters
    74

RiverDog

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I guess I'm a little confused about the poll question. Is it who will start or who do you think should start? I opted for the former.

The question of who should start is very similar to what we have going on in our QB room, although I don't think the answer is a simple as it is with our Hawks. At this period of time, the older QB gives his team the better chance to win. That's more of a certainty with us and Geno/Howell than it is with Russ/Fields, but in the case with the Steelers, both are new to the team so there isn't the familiarity aspect as there is with Geno being the guy here for the past two seasons and Howell the newcomer.

I do think that Russell, due to his experience, gives the Steelers the best chance to win, but not by a long shot. If the black and gold start out slow, say go 2-5 or 3-6, I can see Tomlin pulling Russell and giving Fields a shot regardless of how well Russ is performing. At least that's how I'd handle it if I were in his shoes.

The way I regard Russell is one of curiosity and drama. I am not actively rooting for him to fail as so many of my friends in this forum are, although I do fully understand the motive for those that want to see him do a belly flop. But I do have to admit to chuckling a bit whenever he throws a pick or takes a sack.
 

MORGULON

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Yeah Russ is a total train wreck now. Sad. He once was our beloved Russ. Now he’s a has-been caricature, desperately trying to find his legacy that ends in Canton and the little hope to do so. Too slow, too thick, too one dimensional.

Fields has the youth, feet and speed. Make plays from nothing like Russ used to do for us. To me, the answer is easy. Fields.
Pittsburgh is the closest #3 will ever get to Canton , unless he buys a ticket.
 

Ozzy

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I feel like Wilson getting named had more to do with how bad Fields looked than how good (or not) Wilson did.

It seemed like they wanted him to show he could actually challenge for the spot, and he utterly failed.



Russ's Advanced stats were not actually pretty good last year. His basic stats were pretty decent, but not his advanced ones.

He only had one, passer rating, that was above league average (and Passer Rating is the simplest advanced metric for passers since it mostly just measures basic stats and applies a multiplier to come up with a number). Every other 'advanced' metric, like Success Rate, ANY/A, EPA, QBR he was a bottom half QB.

He didn't just not 'run' the offense the way Payton wanted; he didn't run it effectively. Russ was a below average QB commanding a below average offense. (18th or worse in scoring percentage, yards per drive, play per drive, and points per drive).

And this isn't just numbers. You can see in the film what Russ's problems were.

He held the ball too long leading to lots of pressures and sacks because he refused to throw into tight windows and relied heavily on 'safe' checkdowns which padded his completion percentage and lowered his INT % but failed to move the offense. Russ threw passes behind the line of scrimmage at the 2nd highest rate of any QB in the league, throwing the ball BEHIND the LOS on more 1 out of every 4 pass attempts.
Nope not true, I will go find his advanced stuff. He was near the top in multiple categories. But regardless he wasn't great last year I don't think anyone argues he was. He was a terrible fit for Payton's offense and he should be a better fit for what Tomlin wants to do. Regardless acting as if he was trash while he was here is flat out goofy. Hate him and hope he throws 76 picks this year, I get it but to say he sucked or only survived for a decade with sorcery and only in some areas is again.....goffy and revisionist.
 

MORGULON

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Nope not true, I will go find his advanced stuff. He was near the top in multiple categories. But regardless he wasn't great last year I don't think anyone argues he was. He was a terrible fit for Payton's offense and he should be a better fit for what Tomlin wants to do. Regardless acting as if he was trash while he was here is flat out goofy. Hate him and hope he throws 76 picks this year, I get it but to say he sucked or only survived for a decade with sorcery and only in some areas is again.....goffy and revisionist.
I have to agree with you. He was a pretty damn good QB for us. For how long? depending on who you're talking to, it might be 5 ,8 or up until he left . I think as his quickness regressed and teams figuring out how to deal with him made it much more obvious. I think he was elite for about the first 5-6 seasons.
Yet when he said he wanted to go where he wouldn't have to carry the team on his back might taint a few memories but back to what you said , he certainly didn't suck .
 
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DarkVictory23

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Nope not true, I will go find his advanced stuff. He was near the top in multiple categories. But regardless he wasn't great last year I don't think anyone argues he was. He was a terrible fit for Payton's offense and he should be a better fit for what Tomlin wants to do. Regardless acting as if he was trash while he was here is flat out goofy. Hate him and hope he throws 76 picks this year, I get it but to say he sucked or only survived for a decade with sorcery and only in some areas is again.....goffy and revisionist.
Look, first off: I don't know where you think I said he only survived off sorcery for a decade or whatever. I didn't mention a word about Russ's prime with Seattle and I have said multiple times on this board that Russ was the best QB the Seahawks have ever had (even if Hasselbeck remains my personal favorite).

This isn't because I want Russ to be bad (well, he is a Steeler now, so... maybe?). But just because he bounced back from amazingly terrible doesn't mean he was good last year, because he still wasn't and trying to paint everyone who points that out as having sour grapes seems unnecessarily dismissive.

The fact is, Russ actually wasn't close to the top in multiple advanced statistical categories.

Against the snap weighted 32 'starting' QBs of the season, Russ ranked:

17th in ANY/A
21st in QBR
24th in Success Rate
25th in EPA per Drop Back

You'll notice that not only was below average in all of these measures, that--outside of ANY/A--he's WELL below. The only Advanced Metric that he fares well in is Passer Rating which hides so many flaws in his game (because it ignores all game context AND ignores sacks).

-----

Russ's last game against the Patriots is a perfect example. If you just buy the Passer Rating number, Russ had a great game. 103.2! Wow! He must have been amazing... but, in fact, he wasn't.

Despite 2 TDs and a 67.6 completion %, that was actually one of Russ's WORST games last year. He had an ANY/A of 4.6, compared to a league average of approximately 5.82. He had a QBR of 54.0 against a league average of 57.0. And he had a -.2 EPA per Drop Back, against his season average (which we already established was bad) of -.12 EPA per Drop Back.

This is why he was benched: because this is what Payton could see but is so easy to ignore if you just want to see the best in the guy.
 

rcaido

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So bench top 3 guy in TDs for Stidham? I don't buy that. Also it was Payton was the reason they lost that Patriots game.

Russ was benched so they can protect him from injury, not because of his play and was still in playoff contention.

When they loss, Broncs had a small chance of making the playoff was not worth continuing to play him as Payton decided too move on from Russ.
 

DarkVictory23

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So bench top 3 guy in TDs for Stidham? I don't buy that. Also it was Payton was the reason they lost that Patriots game.

Russ was benched so they can protect him from injury, not because of his play and was still in playoff contention.

When they loss, Broncs had a small chance of making the playoff was not worth continuing to play him as Payton decided too move on from Russ.
Again, you are falling back on a generic volume stat to say why he wouldn't get benched, ignoring how much of Russ's production was throws to the flats and his receivers turning them into something.
Now, you might celebrate that because anything that makes Russ look better on a stat line is what you are hoping for, but Sean Payton is going to think that, 'yeah, maybe Stidham can do dump offs just as good as this guy.'

Also, while there are multiple reasons they lost that Patriots game, the fact that Russ took 5 ginormous sacks, 4 of them on third down, and 2 of them where he fumbled is a GIGANTIC one.

If you watched the game, you'd know that 1--if you are being generous to Russ, maybe 2--of the sacks were on the O-line. The others were a guy either being oblivious or doing the normal Russ thing of bailing on a pocket instead of stepping into it.


Russ absolutely was benched because of his play. That is WHY Payton decided to move on from him. Let's stop pretending it was just a personality conflict. If Russ was producing like old Russ, there is no way Payton would have wanted to pay near record sums for a guy to play on a different team.

(Also, it's kind of weird how much throwing under the bus people do of Sean Payton trying to defend Russ when the previous season without Payton as coach, Russ had made a legitimate case to be the worst starter in the entire league. Payton upgraded him to just 'not good'. Or did we forget that Russ was #24 in ANY/A, #28 in Passer Rating and QBR, #29 in EPA, and DEAD LAST in Success Rate just 1 season before?)
 

Lagartixa

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It's Russ. People hate to hear it but his advanced stats were actually pretty good last year. He was near best in the league in the red zone, passer rating was good, TD/INT ration was super good he just couldn't run the offense Payton likes to run. Tomlin's historically ran an offense that fits Russ much better. Big Ben played a lot like Russ in many ways. I think Russ has another solid year and people go crazy because of it.

Wilson's advanced stats were most definitely not good last year, and it's difficult to imagine a lens under which they could possibly look good.

As usual, Wilson had a good completion percentage, a good number of TD passes, and few interceptions. Those are the things that go into passer rating, so he ends up with a good passer rating, and that tells you exactly nothing that completion percentage, TD percentage, and interception percentage don't.

None of this is advanced stats, by the way.

As usual, Wilson had one of the highest sack percentages in the league and one of the highest pressure percentages, despite being gifted one of the highest times before pressure in the league. That is, the Broncos' offensive line actually did a decent job at preventing pressure for what would be long enough for a good NFL quarterback capable of running a modern NFL offense on time, but was nowhere near enough time for Wilson. Wilson was given the seventh-most time before pressure in 2023, but still managed to be among the league "leaders" in sack percentage.

Because measures like DVOA, QBR, and ANY/A take into account things like game situation (sometimes via success percentage) and sacks, Wilson fares much worse in those (bottom half of the league among starters in all). The difference tells us that Wilson's 2023 completion percentage was "empty calories," because low successs percentage despite high completion percentage means that many of the completions were short of what would be considered success on the play, which includes not getting first downs on third-and-reasonable, which is why both Seahawks fans and Broncos fans have three-and-out PTSD from Wilson's years playing for those teams. That all fits prettty well with what we saw from Wilson the Stealer in the preseason: sacks that a pocket-aware QB could avoid, sacks that a QB who can go through his reads quickly could avoid, and throws that frequently weren't just short of ths sticks, but also short of the line of scrimmage.

Wilson was 25th in the league in intended air yards per pass attempt in 2023, and 28th in the league in completed air yards per completion. That tells us that even though he's historically had a pretty good completion percentage, in 2023 his completion percentage was inflated by keeping his passes very short. This was part of Payton's strategy for minimizing the damage Wilson could do to the team. What should be scary for the Russellettes hoping their hero has only appeared to have feet of clay these last few seasons is that even though Payton pushed Wilson to shorter passes and therefore faster-developing plays, Wilson still ended up among the league "leaders" in sack percentage. That means that if Smith and Tomlin don't confine Wilson to shorter passes like Payton did, Wilson could end up setting some league sack-percentage records for as long as Smith and Tomlin are willing to let that go on.

I have to admit I kinda love the idea that people here keep suggesting about Wilson eventually ending up on the Raiders. Here's hoping it happens. Imagine how wonderful: after having ruined the still-loathed Broncos and the on-the-rise team they had before the worst trade and worst contract extension in the organization's history (and, at $85M, well over double the second-worst figure, by far the biggest dead-money hit any team has ever been willing to take to get away from a player), Wilson could then go and ruin the loathed-for-XL Stealers, then the still-loathed-from-the-'70s-and-'80s Raiders. The only way I can imagine that getting any better at all is if Wilson ends up on the Patriots too before finally being laughed out of the league. The down side, of course, is that a team is virtually guaranteed good draft position after a season of Wilson.

There's a reason two teams in a row have concluded that Wilson was not part of what they needed to win titles and only one team was desperate enough in the 2024 offseason to pay even the vet minimum for Wilson, even though every team in the league knew he could be signed for the minimum, because the Broncos were on the hook for paying him $39M this season, minus whatever he managed to get in his new contract. Because Wilson's 2024 compensation is already set at $39M, it doesn't matter to him how much of it comes from the Broncos and how much comes from the Steelers, except that the less of it that comes from his new team means the more that team has to spend on making the team around him better, but importantly, without him having to reduce his own compensation.

The reason is because NFL front offices have figured out that Wilson won't get them closer to a Super Bowl title. At this point, I suspect the Russellettes won't ever figure that out.
 

IndyHawk

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So bench top 3 guy in TDs for Stidham? I don't buy that. Also it was Payton was the reason they lost that Patriots game.

Russ was benched so they can protect him from injury, not because of his play and was still in playoff contention.

When they loss, Broncs had a small chance of making the playoff was not worth continuing to play him as Payton decided too move on from Russ.
No Payton was not the reason and if you had watched the game
you wouldn't be spewing that nonsense.
 

rcaido

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Their best receiver got concus in the first quarter(Sutton)
Javonte was pretty much worthless the whole game, like he couldn't get more then 3yrds. He had a 24yrds rushing and -5 receiving and a costly fumble when they started to get the offense going. Should have benched him for McLauglin.

Mims fumbles a kickoff return for a td

Meanwhile, Russ had zero turnovers.
Wilson had back to back 80yrd td drives plus two 2point conversion to tie the game.

Then Payton decided to go conservative again and went with the screen/bubble pass that had negative plays all game. Then he decided to give the Patriots free timeouts for them to kick the game winning FG.

Payton for being dumb and Javonte for being worthless in that game.
 

IndyHawk

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Their best receiver got concus in the first quarter(Sutton)
Javonte was pretty much worthless the whole game, like he couldn't get more then 3yrds. He had a 24yrds rushing and -5 receiving and a costly fumble when they started to get the offense going. Should have benched him for McLauglin.

Mims fumbles a kickoff return for a td

Meanwhile, Russ had zero turnovers.
Wilson had back to back 80yrd td drives plus two 2point conversion to tie the game.

Then Payton decided to go conservative again and went with the screen/bubble pass that had negative plays all game. Then he decided to give the Patriots free timeouts for them to kick the game winning FG.

Payton for being dumb and Javonte for being worthless in that game.
Forgetting the 3 and outs which were plenty after the Denver D
gave them many chances.
 

rcaido

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Forgetting the 3 and outs which were plenty after the Denver D
gave them many chances.
First series
3 rushing 1passing Turnover by downs by Javonte who gain a total of 5 yrds in 3 rushing

Second series
2 rushes and 1 passing Javonte had negative rushing

Third series
2 passes 3 rushing, TD

Fourth series
2 passing first downs
1 rushing first down by Mclauglin
Then Javonte fumbles the ball

5th series
2 rushing first down one by Russ
1 passing first down but call back because of unnecessary roughness by oline(15yard penalty) drive killer

6th series
1 passing first down
3 for 3 completed passes
missed field goal

End of half

Clearly it was Javonte's fault in the first half. The second half he had negative yardage.

Second half, Wilson sucked in the 3rd quarter and was magical in the 4th w/ the two 80yrd td drives back to back. Also converting twice on two point conversion. All this without Sutton. Broncos had 19 first downs, not bad without the #1 WR & #1 RB(Javonte in terrible game)
 

Cyrus12

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OP
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AROS

AROS

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What a joke. Dude’s become a caricature. Do any of us think for even one millisecond 2012-2019 Russ is complaining about a calf strain two days before a season opener?

I don’t buy it. Not sure what his angle here is but there is no way in Hell our version of Russ 10 years ago bitches about a calf strain that could keep him from playing.

200
 

Maelstrom787

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Believe it or not, I voted Russell Wilson.

Fields is a reclamation project. A rehabilitative prospect that needs retooling. Russell is a classic stopgap that, if schemed for properly, can have limited success. Likely no postseason ceiling to speak of, but you don't lose anything by throwing him in.

Let Fields practice for a year with their coaching staff and sit on gameday as the backup. Encourage him to embrace the role of being a student of the game. Try to shift his perspective on the sport as a signal caller while working on his fundamentals over the year. Russell has been around the block and can handle being the starter. He's reached his ceiling. To throw Fields in now is to lose an opportunity to fix some of his more glaring inadequacies.

Football in the modern day is all about the quarterback. Your success hinges on making your quarterbacks job easier. You want to build him a nest in terms of a supporting cast and build up his momentum and confidence by ensuring you're not starting him off with more than he can handle. Development is progressive and quarterbacks require nurturing.

Hopefully for Pittsburgh, in a year they'll have a rehabilitated Justin Fields with improved fundamental mechanics, restored confidence, and enough support to guardrail him as he tries to rebuild his career. They'll be able to craft a great rushing attack using his athleticism and scheme up the passing game to highlight his strengths. Until then, let Russ have his go and see what he can do.
 

Cyrus12

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Believe it or not, I voted Russell Wilson.

Fields is a reclamation project. A rehabilitative prospect that needs retooling. Russell is a classic stopgap that, if schemed for properly, can have limited success. Likely no postseason ceiling to speak of, but you don't lose anything by throwing him in.

Let Fields practice for a year with their coaching staff and sit on gameday as the backup. Encourage him to embrace the role of being a student of the game. Try to shift his perspective on the sport as a signal caller while working on his fundamentals over the year. Russell has been around the block and can handle being the starter. He's reached his ceiling. To throw Fields in now is to lose an opportunity to fix some of his more glaring inadequacies.

Football in the modern day is all about the quarterback. Your success hinges on making your quarterbacks job easier. You want to build him a nest in terms of a supporting cast and build up his momentum and confidence by ensuring you're not starting him off with more than he can handle. Development is progressive and quarterbacks require nurturing.

Hopefully for Pittsburgh, in a year they'll have a rehabilitated Justin Fields with improved fundamental mechanics, restored confidence, and enough support to guardrail him as he tries to rebuild his career. They'll be able to craft a great rushing attack using his athleticism and scheme up the passing game to highlight his strengths. Until then, let Russ have his go and see what he can do.
Like Jesse the Body Ventura says...I wouldn't vote for either one of them..
 

keasley45

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It may come to pass that Russ never starts for the Steelers. If Fields plays competent ball and adds a little RPO magic, they may not want to pull him for a healthy Russ. Why would they? They pretty much admitted that had Fields been made available sooner, they may not have ever signed Russ, even if he came 'free' of cost.

I said it when Russ left here - that he would never amount to anything if he were forced to actually play QB within the structure os an offense. And - that his career would end quietly due to injuries that he would say ultimately 'prevented him from playing the game the way he wanted to play it'.

Not saying this is the end for him... but i'm pretty sure this is what it will look like when it comes.
 

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