My Kind Of Beef With Russell Okung

[Evil_Shenanigans]

Only argument that needs to be made, is just how bad our offensive line was when Okung, and to a lesser extent Giacomini were out. Okung is going nowhere unless another injury pops up.

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

]Can you imagine our starting O-Line without Okung? [/b] And he doesn't hold the leverage? It is almost like you have the ability to read my mind and choose to post the exact opposite of my opinion on just about every subject.

I don't have to imagine it. I have seen it every year he has been a Hawk for about 30% of the time.

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

The cap hit is going to determine to a huge extent who gets to stay on this team. Look at Sidney, way too much $ on the cap hit is what is sending him away. I could handle Okung if he was as reliable as Walt was to start every game.
My only problem with Okung is the size of his contract. I think he is the third highest paid player behind Sid and Percy. When looking at that, the number of games he misses, his rookie holdout, I would gladly swap him for a guy that can play at 85% of Okungs effectiveness if he can start almost every game (which can't be predicted) for roughly 1/3 of the cap hit. In other words a high pick LT.
If this years draft is so deep on OL, I am good with 2 or 3 picks being OL.
Tough choices need to be made regarding the expense of players. We will spend every penny that is allowed but those that under perform relative to their contract need to be replaced or restructored to keep us competitive.

 

[Cartire]

The cap hit is going to determine to a huge extent who gets to stay on this team. Look at Sidney, way too much $ on the cap hit is what is sending him away. I could handle Okung if he was as reliable as Walt was to start every game.
My only problem with Okung is the size of his contract. I think he is the third highest paid player behind Sid and Percy. When looking at that, the number of games he misses, his rookie holdout, I would gladly swap him for a guy that can play at 85% of Okungs effectiveness if he can start almost every game (which can't be predicted) for roughly 1/3 of the cap hit. In other words a high pick LT.
If this years draft is so deep on OL, I am good with 2 or 3 picks being OL.
Tough choices need to be made regarding the expense of players. We will spend every penny that is allowed but those that under perform relative to their contract need to be replaced or restructored to keep us competitive.

The LT is one of the highest paid positions, minus the QB and a few star athletes, on most teams. It's also one of the most critical. You don't just pick one up at the general store.

Get over the hindsight of injury. It's a risk with any player. Sometimes you hit the jackpot (Walt) with a stellar injury free career. But most the time you're not so lucky. There is zero reliability in just finding a cheap rookie contract LT and plugging him in.

Okung has proven his ability to cover Wilson's blind side. Something that you don't throw away.

He's being paid like an LT. Don't just look at numbers and think every position is created equally.

 

[ivotuk]

What do you think are the chances the Seahawks could restructure and extend Okung's current contract to a deal somewhere between the lines of both SFO's tackles.

Anthony Davis got a 5 yr, 33.2 m extension. 6.64 million per.

Joe Staley got a 6 yr, 43.2 m extension. 7.2 million per.

I would put Okung's value in between both players, Okung is not as good of a run-blocker Davis is nor as good of a Pass-blocker Joe Staley is. Not to mention that Okung has missed 21 starts out of the team's 71 total games (64 RS, 7 PS) over the last 4 years.

The total money Okung was scheduled to earn in those 4 years was a whopping $40 million. The contract language is pretty confusing... Overthecap.com put Okung earning 29.98 million in base salaries/roster bonuses but also said he received $10 million in Guaranteed salary advanced.

Okung, the number 6 overall pick in the 2010 NFL draft, signed a six year contract worth a base value of $48.5 million with the Seahawks. Okung received a %1.68 million signing bonus and $2 million roster bonus in 2010. In 2011 the Seahwks paid Okung his $10 million guaranteed salary advance. Okung earned his one time $5 million roster bonus in 2011 due to playing time in 2010. As a result of reaching his playtime incentives he will earn $200,000 workout bonuses from 2011 through 2015 and multiple escalators throughout he life of the contract. In total Okung received $29.3 million in guarantees.

But whether if its 30 million or 40 million its still a lot of damn money even with the games missed that could make his total earnings closer to $20/$30 million depending on which figure is correct. For instance, Earl Thomas in the same 4 years, while starting every game, while being a bigger impact player on the field has only earned about $14 million in the last 4 years.

If the Seahawks cut Okung this year, it would save $6.68m against the cap. 2013 regular season taught us that this team could survive and go 7-1 without Okung, and be 6-2 with him. And that this team could do it with an old, overmatched Guard like Paul McQuistan who got thoroughly dominated, yet the team continued to win despite it.

Thats leverage. If I'm Schneider, Carroll, and Cable. I'm looking at the first round pick and looking at OT. I'm looking at Bailey, Bowie, and Hauptmann and challenging them, developing them every day. I'm looking at all the LTs on the market or could be on the market and not comparing them against Okung but how big of an improvement they'd be over McQuistan.

Because lets say Russell Okung loves playing for the Seahawks and understands we have to pay players for their contributions to keep this thing going. Lets say he's on that same page with us and possibly sees all that writing on the wall that the team might prepare to move on without him and his giant contract when he has yet to start an entire season's worth of games. So, Okung does restructures/re-negotiates his deal for an extension and instead of saving $6.68 million against the cap by being cut, he only costs $6.68 million against the cap in 2014. He would still save the team 4.56m and that could be the difference in being able to re-sign Giacomini or the difference of keeping Red Bryant, if Okung theoretically liked and had relationships with both of those players.

I'm not saying this absolutely needs to happen, I like Okung and feel his best years are still ahead of him, but 11.24 million is just too damn much to give to an oft-injured fringe Pro-Bowl talent who has only started and played in 70% of his games since entering the league.

And yes I do understand the parallels to Harvin. No need to talk about that here but I will say this, in 2009, Percy Harvin signed a 5 year, 14.5 million contract. In 2010, Russell Okung signed a 6 year, 58 million contract.

Bravo! Great post! I was a huge Russell Okung fan when he was drafted but his injury history is disturbing. Since his multiple ankle/toe/foot injuries, he seems to have fallen off as a Tackle. The holding penalties and false start penalties tell a story, the story of a man who isn't playing at full capacity. So even when he's not missing games, he's still playing poorly.

He's not a Pro Bowl LT, not for a long time now, and he shouldn't be paid like one. I saw the other day where he is now ranked as the 21st LT in the league.

This team is about winning, it is not about sentimentality. Sorry Okung, but you are not protecting our Franchise Quarterback in a manner commensurate with the Left Tackle position, nor with the level of pay you are getting.

Either take a pay cut, or get replaced by a younger, healthier rookie who will actually be on the field, protecting our QB and helping our RB make yards instead of backing the team up with penalties or in the locker room with injuries.

You can always put qualifiers in the contract so that if you do get back to a Pro Bowl level you get paid, but as it stands, you are not earning that contract and are using up valuable resources this team desperately needs to win another SuperBowl.

 

[themunn]

Bravo! Great post! I was a huge Russell Okung fan when he was drafted but his injury history is disturbing. Since his multiple ankle/toe/foot injuries, he seems to have fallen off as a Tackle. The holding penalties and false start penalties tell a story, the story of a man who isn't playing at full capacity. So even when he's not missing games, he's still playing poorly.

He's not a Pro Bowl LT, not for a long time now, and he shouldn't be paid like one. I saw the other day where he is now ranked as the 21st LT in the league.

He was a starting Pro Bowl LT in 2012, If by "a long time" you mean "since he came back from injury midway through the season probably still nursing an injury which slowed him" then I agree.

 

[brimsalabim]

The LT is one of the highest paid positions, minus the QB and a few star athletes, on most teams. It's also one of the most critical. You don't just pick one up at the general store.

Get over the hindsight of injury. It's a risk with any player. Sometimes you hit the jackpot (Walt) with a stellar injury free career. But most the time you're not so lucky. There is zero reliability in just finding a cheap rookie contract LT and plugging him in.

Okung has proven his ability to cover Wilson's blind side. Something that you don't throw away.

He's being paid like an LT. Don't just look at numbers and think every position is created equally.

I don't understand this argument. The fact that they are uber important and difficult to find means that we should ALWAYS be looking. This draft is deep in OL talent and with rookie salary's being controlled we shouldn't have to move okung or unger immediately in order to draft true potential replacements for their positions. If those guys stay healthy we are fine but if they go down again we could still protect our QB. If we aren't going to draft the ol positions then I hope we trade everything to move up on Eberon.

 

[Cartire]

The LT is one of the highest paid positions, minus the QB and a few star athletes, on most teams. It's also one of the most critical. You don't just pick one up at the general store.

Get over the hindsight of injury. It's a risk with any player. Sometimes you hit the jackpot (Walt) with a stellar injury free career. But most the time you're not so lucky. There is zero reliability in just finding a cheap rookie contract LT and plugging him in.

Okung has proven his ability to cover Wilson's blind side. Something that you don't throw away.

He's being paid like an LT. Don't just look at numbers and think every position is created equally.

I don't understand this argument. The fact that they are uber important and difficult to find means that we should ALWAYS be looking. This draft is deep in OL talent and with rookie salary's being controlled we shouldn't have to move okung or unger immediately in order to draft true potential replacements for their positions. If those guys stay healthy we are fine but if they go down again we could still protect our QB. If we aren't going to draft the ol positions then I hope we trade everything to move up on Eberon.

Maybe because this argument had nothing to do with drafting. I'm not against drafting more tackles. I'm against the restructure of okungs contract.

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

The cap hit is going to determine to a huge extent who gets to stay on this team. Look at Sidney, way too much $ on the cap hit is what is sending him away. I could handle Okung if he was as reliable as Walt was to start every game.
My only problem with Okung is the size of his contract. I think he is the third highest paid player behind Sid and Percy. When looking at that, the number of games he misses, his rookie holdout, I would gladly swap him for a guy that can play at 85% of Okungs effectiveness if he can start almost every game (which can't be predicted) for roughly 1/3 of the cap hit. In other words a high pick LT.
If this years draft is so deep on OL, I am good with 2 or 3 picks being OL.
Tough choices need to be made regarding the expense of players. We will spend every penny that is allowed but those that under perform relative to their contract need to be replaced or restructored to keep us competitive.

The LT is one of the highest paid positions, minus the QB and a few star athletes, on most teams. It's also one of the most critical. You don't just pick one up at the general store.

Get over the hindsight of injury. It's a risk with any player. Sometimes you hit the jackpot (Walt) with a stellar injury free career. But most the time you're not so lucky. There is zero reliability in just finding a cheap rookie contract LT and plugging him in.

Okung has proven his ability to cover Wilson's blind side. Something that you don't throw away.

He's being paid like an LT. Don't just look at numbers and think every position is created equally.

Sorry if I have conveyed that all positions are created equally because I do not feel that way.
Okung makes too much $ based upon his ability to play almost every down. I would be curious if we could trade him for a 7th rounder consider his new team has to pay out the remaining $18.5 million over the next 2 years. Considering his injury history, a guarantee that he will provide more than his average of bone head penalties, and his contract size there is no way I would trade for him.
You sound as though you would make that hypothetical trade in an instant.

 

[amill87]

Talent wise, Okung is every bit as good if not better than Staley. Let's not forget that Staley benefits from playing next to a pro bowl LG.

I think we extend Okung, just not yet. I think we will go one more season and decides just how much we are gonna pay him. If he is injured again, it'll probably be close to what he makes now. If goes out and goes back to the pro bowl, than he's gonna get a raise.

You don't go cheap on a LT just to save money.

 

[amill87]

The cap hit is going to determine to a huge extent who gets to stay on this team. Look at Sidney, way too much $ on the cap hit is what is sending him away. I could handle Okung if he was as reliable as Walt was to start every game.
My only problem with Okung is the size of his contract. I think he is the third highest paid player behind Sid and Percy. When looking at that, the number of games he misses, his rookie holdout, I would gladly swap him for a guy that can play at 85% of Okungs effectiveness if he can start almost every game (which can't be predicted) for roughly 1/3 of the cap hit. In other words a high pick LT.
If this years draft is so deep on OL, I am good with 2 or 3 picks being OL.
Tough choices need to be made regarding the expense of players. We will spend every penny that is allowed but those that under perform relative to their contract need to be replaced or restructored to keep us competitive.

The LT is one of the highest paid positions, minus the QB and a few star athletes, on most teams. It's also one of the most critical. You don't just pick one up at the general store.

Get over the hindsight of injury. It's a risk with any player. Sometimes you hit the jackpot (Walt) with a stellar injury free career. But most the time you're not so lucky. There is zero reliability in just finding a cheap rookie contract LT and plugging him in.

Okung has proven his ability to cover Wilson's blind side. Something that you don't throw away.

He's being paid like an LT. Don't just look at numbers and think every position is created equally.

Sorry if I have conveyed that all positions are created equally because I do not feel that way.
Okung makes too much $ based upon his ability to play almost every down. I would be curious if we could trade him for a 7th rounder consider his new team has to pay out the remaining $18.5 million over the next 2 years. Considering his injury history, a guarantee that he will provide more than his average of bone head penalties, and his contract size there is no way I would trade for him.
You sound as though you would make that hypothetical trade in an instant.

Are you serious?

Half the league would jump on that trade in a heartbeat. Every lineman gets bonehead penalties.

This thread started out with some good insight, now it's turned into some people just don't like okung because he's been hurt and think he is with a 7TH ROUNDER

Also explain how he is making too much money? What are you basing this off? Is there a chart that GMs use so we can check that out and see your point of view?

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

Yes, I am quite serious.
Ok gents, Joe Staley was just referenced so let's compare a bit as both are solid LTs' and play in the same division as starters.
In the last 4 years, which is how long RO has been an NFL player, Staley has started 57 games and has started every game the last 3 years straight.
Okung has started 45 games over the same time span and has missed 13 games in the last 3 years.
Staleys contract paid/pays out `13@$2.8M, `14@$3.4M, `15@$5.2M total $11.4M over the next 3 years. Total contract 9yr/$43M/$18G
Okung's contract paid/pays out `13@$9.5M, `14@$11.2M, `15@$7.3M total $28.0M over 3 years. Total contract 6yr/$48.5M/$30G

amill, if we were to trade him, the team that gets him also gets his contract. That is why we cant trade Sidney and will have to cut him. His contract makes it unworthy to the buyer. I would not trade a 7th for Okung because of the size of his contract along with his history.
Some still do not understand that tough decisions will have to be made to keep the Maxwells, Shermans, ET's, Baldwins ect. Okung's status is exactly the type of difficult decisions that will have to be made.

 

[amill87]

You are speaking as if we could, we would trade Okung but because there is no market for him, we can't.

Okung will never be traded for a 7th rounder not because he's not worth it (contract included, teams can always re negotiate) but because it would be a bad trade.

Like it or not, Okung is part of the core of this team (and will be paid accordilly) until someone comes along to replace him, not before.

It is more likely that Maxwell is gone before okung.

*edit* Also comparing different players on different teams to determine one makes too much money is a tricky thing.

Aaron Rodgers has as many rings as Russell Wilson, should the packers look to save a TON of money and just go get a quarterback in the draft and re structure Rodgers? This is a hyperbole of course but just because one player makes more than another doesn't mean one player is overpaid.

And yes, left tackle is almost as important as the franchise quarterback. Does you no good to have a franchise quarterback if he can't play because he got killed from his blindside

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

You are speaking as if we could, we would trade Okung but because there is no market for him, we can't.

Okung will never be traded for a 7th rounder not because he's not worth it (contract included, teams can always re negotiate) but because it would be a bad trade.

Like it or not, Okung is part of the core of this team (and will be paid accordilly) until someone comes along to replace him, not before.

It is more likely that Maxwell is gone before okung.

*edit* Also comparing different players on different teams to determine one makes too much money is a tricky thing.

Aaron Rodgers has as many rings as Russell Wilson, should the packers look to save a TON of money and just go get a quarterback in the draft and re structure Rodgers? This is a hyperbole of course but just because one player makes more than another doesn't mean one player is overpaid.

And yes, left tackle is almost as important as the franchise quarterback. Does you no good to have a franchise quarterback if he can't play because he got killed from his blindside

The thing is the Seahawks don't need to do anything now.

The have free agency, the draft plus an entire off-season/training camp to assess the talent that they and compare them against Okung.

They can wait until the last minute to the final cut-down to 53, and they could ask him to take a pay cut or be cut.

By that time teams would have already spent a lot of their cap, their rosters are all but settled, and now Okung likely has to go to a team that runs a read option, because he doesn't have time to acclimated into another system. He has to work with new coaches, new offensive line, new RB, new QB. And if it isn't a mobile QB that means more pressure on him to perform. Considering his injury history, he's not going to make a whole lot of money on the open market and the last possible second. He's just not.

If the Seahawks put the word out that they are open to trade him, there might be a couple of good offers from smart teams that understand talent and needing time get comfortable switching scenes.

But yeah Okung has a lot to prove this off-season, always compete, if he doesn't then why should the Seahawks pay him if hypotheticallly they could get the same thing from Alvin Bailey at $11 million dollars less.