Hitting the Weights with Cassius Marsh

[bmorepunk]

Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

So the best DT to ever wear a hawk uni was one big 'copout?' Thanks for enlightening us all with that tripe.

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I wasn't talking about Tez's training, because I have no idea what the dude was doing. But since he's so genetically special he could probably have done just about anything that induced a little stress in his system and he would adapt to it.

Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.

The best S&C coaches are the ones that can take any population and get significant improvement out of them. Elite athletes will often adapt pretty effectively to sub-optimal training, but the next tier down of athletes will show how good the coach is. NFL S&C coaches and big school NCAA coaches have a huge margin for error because the population they get is so gifted.

Most NFL players are such ridiculously amazing physical specimens that you could do all kinds of silly things and they would still have significant strength adaptation.

The "functional" and "core strength" ideas that have reared their heads are mostly a cop-out by people who don't want to lift maximal weights to drive adaptation. A NFL lineman who can squat and deadlift over 700 pounds is going to have more "core strength" than he would if he was doing "core" training. And most of these guys can power clean a lot of weight, which is an expression of their strength and their elite athletic power recruitment.

When I say functional core strength I'm talking about generating power outside of the framework of a lift. It is one thing to be able to put your body into a specific alignment to lift a lot of weight, but that's not the reality of football. The term "functional" in regards to football is the ability to bend, contort, straff down the LOS with muscle and tendon flexibility (which is often lost by pure lifters) and still generate a lot of power. I always found that when I played I had to balance lifting, flexibility, and more functional exercises lest you become too stiff and non-functional for actual gameplay.

Billings is a good example. I find that his ability to keep his shoulders square WHILE playing down the LOS laterally is kind of unique for bigtime weight lifters. Most of the time that is lost and you find them turning their body to go own the LOS vs keeping square with a good base and flexibility (like Mebane).

Functional football strength is absolutely a real thing and an extremely important one. Generally it relates to functional core strength. Some of the best football players aren't benchers or squatters and if you put on a film you'd think they're a lot stronger than they'd test at lifting. I.E. functional...

Sometimes I think Madden has damaged the game. Or at least how people view prospects anyway. Same with the combine. When I was young I used to squat twice a week with my FB who also played DE. My vert went up, weight went up, etc, but I also found that I wasn't as quick (slow twitch vs fast twitch) and lost flexibility. I used to think silly and manly things too....don't squat high weight twice a week. Your knees won't like it when you get older. Keep it to once a week, stay flexible, and don't do cardio on machines. That's still inside of a specific framework and is a non-functional exercise.

Once you make it past the novice stage of lifting, which most college players are out of, you shouldn't be working heavy squats more than once a week. There's many different intermediate and advanced strength programs, and unless it's a hardcore short cycle you don't do any particular major lift more than once a week, particularly deadlifts. The volume really needs to be controlled properly for lifters are these stages through a week, month, or longer to drive low-volume, high-intensity maxes.

Knees shouldn't be getting damaged in squats if done to parallel. Knee injuries occur commonly because lifters don't go deep enough and don't get the hamstrings balancing out their quads. This results in terrible shear forces across the knees. People can squat with torn ligaments with no issues if done so properly, but they may need a knowledgable coach to do it right.

When you were doing squats, what was your programming?

 

[vin.couve12]

There's more to it than that. Essentially you're not allowing even some of the muscle and cartilage ample time for healing some of the tearing from lifting and layering scar tissue if you're not careful. We used to start with a plate and add plate until we couldn't go anymore in sets of 10 twice a week...didn't know any better and just listened to our unqualified coaches. It was the early 90s and there was even a lot of steroid use in the locker room. Some cocaine use even. I remember a friend of mine who was our tackle was 6'8 360 pounds (RIP) had to have some jojos before every game and subsequently usually had to take a dump just before the game, but that's neither here nor there (just reminiscing since I'm there)...

If you need an example of functional core strength though, watch a vs tape of Billings vs Knemdiche. I guarantee you Billings can lift more weight, but as strong as he can be on the football field he'll never be able to take on a double team the way Knemdiche can or show the raw explosive power that he does. He just isn't as functionally strong in full range of body movement.

 

[Smellyman]

Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.

How could you possibly know that?

 

[bmorepunk]

There's more to it than that. Essentially you're not allowing even some of the muscle and cartilage ample time for healing some of the tearing from lifting and layering scar tissue if you're not careful. We used to start with a plate and add plate until we couldn't go anymore in sets of 10 twice a week...didn't know any better and just listened to our unqualified coaches. It was the early 90s and there was even a lot of steroid use in the locker room. Some cocaine use even. I remember a friend of mine who was our tackle was 6'8 360 pounds (RIP) had to have some jojos before every game and subsequently usually had to take a dump just before the game, but that's neither here nor there (just reminiscing since I'm there)...

If you need an example of functional core strength though, watch a vs tape of Billings vs Knemdiche. I guarantee you Billings can lift more weight, but as strong as he can be on the football field he'll never be able to take on a double team the way Knemdiche can or show the raw explosive power that he does. He just isn't as functionally strong in full range of body movement.

That's not good programming, but it's pretty common for football players. Too much volume and not enough time to recover, especially since football players are doing an immense amount of actual physical work outside the weight room. Recovery is the most important part of lifting; you're right in that recovery from this kind of programming is impossible over a long period of time. Proper programming and recovery would strengthen connective tissue and increase bone density, but in this case neither of those things are happening.

Most coaches depend on sets of 10 with football. When you have skinny kids who you don't want being pushed around, this kind of makes sense. But when you have big athletes sets of 10 are sub-optimal for strength development.

I'm not stating that the strongest players are the best. You can only coach a player so much with their technique, and power is what it is. Strength is the basis for the expression of that power, but you can only win so much against your bodyweight. If you take the same 200 lb individual who can squat either 200 lbs or 400 lbs, the 400 lb squat version will be able to generate more power. The limitation is whether their bodyweight, which must increase to increase their strength within reason, starts to become an issue.

 

[Smellyman]

 

[bmorepunk]

Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.

How could you possibly know that?

It's a common complaint by respected strength coaches. Here's an example of what they're not impressed with:

After all of the neck exercises are completed you will move to the hips and legs.
We have a well-equipped facility and will incorporate a wide range of variety in our
routines. A sample Texans leg routine will include the following exercises:
1. Leg Press or Squat
2. Leg Curl
3. Hip Extension
4. Leg Press or Squat
5. Leg Extension
6. Leg Press or Squat
7. Adduction
8. Hip Flexion
9. Calf Raises (Straight-Leg & Bent-Leg)

http://tomhayden3.com/data/texans_fitness.pdf

Leg presses aren't squats. Instead of coaching their players to squat properly as a rule, they apparently allow them to train their body in sections instead of a whole system. Great for bodybuilders, not so great for athletes. But once again, elite athletes' genetic profile allows them to respond to this sort of thing so the coaches don't have to be top-level strength coaches to be reasonably successful.

 

[Ozzy]

Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.

How could you possibly know that?

I know some people who have been involved at various places personally and through mutual friends from years of competitive powerlifting. Other teams release their S&C philosophies so are easily reviewed. I believe the Seahawks have a good staff in this regard but I'm not real familiar with their current coach so not really sure. The problem start at the college level as some schools are very good and some are terrible.

 

[bmorepunk]

 

[Ozzy]

So we can't know what we're talking about? Good discussion lol.

 

[bmorepunk]

Austin, are you a PLer?

 

[Ozzy]

I was. Quit about 12 years ago because of injuries and starting a family. Still train and stay connected with my buddies though and help out with coaching. Body is a little beat up to compete so mostly trying to stay in shape so my kids don't think I'm old.

 

[vin.couve12]

Sadly a lot of NFL teams have terrible strength and conditioning coaches but it gets masked because they are such good athletes. Bill Gillespie who was the long time strength coach at UW and short time for the Seahawks is one of the best in the country. Wish we still had him on staff.

How could you possibly know that?

It's a common complaint by respected strength coaches. Here's an example of what they're not impressed with:

After all of the neck exercises are completed you will move to the hips and legs.
We have a well-equipped facility and will incorporate a wide range of variety in our
routines. A sample Texans leg routine will include the following exercises:
1. Leg Press or Squat
2. Leg Curl
3. Hip Extension
4. Leg Press or Squat
5. Leg Extension
6. Leg Press or Squat
7. Adduction
8. Hip Flexion
9. Calf Raises (Straight-Leg & Bent-Leg)

http://tomhayden3.com/data/texans_fitness.pdf

Leg presses aren't squats. Instead of coaching their players to squat properly as a rule, they apparently allow them to train their body in sections instead of a whole system. Great for bodybuilders, not so great for athletes. But once again, elite athletes' genetic profile allows them to respond to this sort of thing so the coaches don't have to be top-level strength coaches to be reasonably successful.

Definitely. Although still very misguided in our lifting, I always had a bigtime belief in free weights for strengthening stabilizer muscles along with the muscle groups you're trying to target. I almost can't believe that's suggested in an actual NFL organization.