Harvin at RB for the read option only?

[Cartire]

I should have said that teams that run it too much are going to pay a heavy price in injured quarterbacks. Like the Redskins did.

I need to highlight this to tell you your information is incorrect. And this is how bad information spreads.

-Last year, RG3 got hurt against the Falcons, on a scramble down the field.
-He got hurt against Baltimore on a scramble
-He got hurt against us the first time being hit as he was scrambling to find an open receiver
-He got hurt the second time against us on a sack from Bruce Irvin
-And finally he was so hurt at that point his knee just gave out on its own due to prior injuries and crappy turf from a botched snap

You'll notice a big factor in all of these. The RO was never a part of any of these injuries.

Run properly, the RO is the QB's best friend because, if hes smart, he can stay out of danger by either handing the ball off or keeping it. DE crashing the middle, keep it. DE rushing the outside, Hand it off. Everyone just assumes the RO is a QB bootleg scramble where the defense is crashing down on them. Its a designed read to prevent the ball carrier from having crashing lineman.

You're ignoring the cumulative effect of all the hits he took while running the read-option here. Just because RGIII didn't get hurt on a specific play doesn't mean the effect wasn't felt.

Except those cumulative hits or whatever have nothing to do with the read-option and everything to do with his running style. No one ever talks about the cumulative hits that RW takes.

Or for that matter, what about the "cumulative" hits that Steve Young took as a scrambler?

RG3 is a fast as hell runner who thinks he's invincible (and maybe is now after Dr. Andrews most likely proscribed AD approved HGH for faster healing). This isnt about the RO. This is about him not learning to slide or go out of bounds.

 

[brimsalabim]

no one wants to have to tackle Lynch one on one. He is the biggest threat from the read option. With all the other threats DC's can't afford to sell out to stop him though. I think the beast is going to feed this season.

 

[NinerBuff]

There's no way the Seahawks subject Harvin to additional punishment. They've invested too much money for him to be a RB.

 

[Scottemojo]

I should have said that teams that run it too much are going to pay a heavy price in injured quarterbacks. Like the Redskins did.

I need to highlight this to tell you your information is incorrect. And this is how bad information spreads.

-Last year, RG3 got hurt against the Falcons, on a scramble down the field.
-He got hurt against Baltimore on a scramble
-He got hurt against us the first time being hit as he was scrambling to find an open receiver
-He got hurt the second time against us on a sack from Bruce Irvin
-And finally he was so hurt at that point his knee just gave out on its own due to prior injuries and crappy turf from a botched snap

You'll notice a big factor in all of these. The RO was never a part of any of these injuries.

Run properly, the RO is the QB's best friend because, if hes smart, he can stay out of danger by either handing the ball off or keeping it. DE crashing the middle, keep it. DE rushing the outside, Hand it off. Everyone just assumes the RO is a QB bootleg scramble where the defense is crashing down on them. Its a designed read to prevent the ball carrier from having crashing lineman.

Now you are being thick. The Skins continued to call pistol option runs after RGIII got dinged. Remember him one legging it to the sticks vs us? Remember him one legging it vs the Boys? The guy could barely walk on a sprained knee and Shanahan kept calling the play that put the most wear and tear on him, a running play where he could keep it. Don't pretend that had no effect. Also, at least two of those injury plays were single back pistol sets with a bootleg single read and run. Option or no, the Redskins rely on RGIII's athleticism in space and then after he got injured they did not dial back use of the read option to protect him.

And the point I was making, and a valid point it is, if the DE just crashes down on the QB every time, he can get a free shot on the QB at will. It is a play fake, the D can say they bit on the fake. Watch the SB again, it is exactly what the ravens did to begin the game. The continually hit Kaep after he handed off. They put it on the Refs to call something and the Refs didn't do it.

 

[kearly]

If the defensive end crashes down every time, then it's an advantage for the RB. If for example teams always keyed on Russell Wilson, then Lynch's numbers would increase further. There is a question of smarts- is the QB smart enough to diagnose and humble enough to not call his own number. I could see the crash down strategy hurting Cam Newton a lot, but Wilson would probably welcome it because he would much rather hand off than keep. I don't know if I'd say the same for RG3, but I will say that RG3 strikes me as a cerebral dude and he generally makes very good split second decisions.

Kaepernick probably prefers to keep and run himself, but I disagree that he showed signs of wear during the SB. He was tearing that defense apart in the 2nd half, and was plenty clutch. His final drive stalled a few yards from victory on a play that would have been called interference 95% of the time had it occurred in the 1st quarter of a regular season game. Harbaugh is a whiner who embarrasses himself by going over the top, but just that once, I thought his reaction was appropriate (though still hilarious).

Now, maybe over a whole season the beatings take a toll on Kaepernick's body and he loses a step. Maybe he even gets injured (I kind of doubt it though- he's a tank). There was a psychological shift from the lights going out, no question, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that Baltimore was themselves playing with a wave of momentum up to that point, and then momentum shifted. Momentum shifts in games all the time, from far lesser events.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said- I think the reason that Manuel ended up a 1st round pick is because QBs that can physically handle RO full time pretty much have to be physical marvels, and you might only find 1 of them a year in most draft classes. I agree also that QBs who use the RO like a crutch (Kaepernick, Newton) will probably have a tougher time over the next couple years than smarter, more balanced RO QBs will (Wilson, RG3).

 

[Scottemojo]

I know it is an advantage for the RB, Kip, true. Didn't stop Baltimore from assigning a player to hit Kaepernick every single run option. I'm not talking about a whole game strategy. Just enough times to see if their OC changes his playcalling. Though I would counter that it was when Baltimore changed strategy that the Niners started balling.

It may have been interference, but it was a bad throw and decision that he made pre snap. A 4th down fade. the Zero blitz hurried his throw, which perhaps I erroneously chalk up to him not wanting to get hit. Truth is, he stunk in the RZ all game anyway. 1 for 5 in the RZ.

This is going to be such an interesting year in the NFL, not even counting what the Hawks do.

 

[Cartire]

Now you are being thick. The Skins continued to call pistol option runs after RGIII got dinged. Remember him one legging it to the sticks vs us? Remember him one legging it vs the Boys? The guy could barely walk on a sprained knee and Shanahan kept calling the play that put the most wear and tear on him, a running play where he could keep it. Don't pretend that had no effect. Also, at least two of those injury plays were single back pistol sets with a bootleg single read and run. Option or no, the Redskins rely on RGIII's athleticism in space and then after he got injured they did not dial back use of the read option to protect him.

And the point I was making, and a valid point it is, if the DE just crashes down on the QB every time, he can get a free shot on the QB at will. It is a play fake, the D can say they bit on the fake. Watch the SB again, it is exactly what the ravens did to begin the game. The continually hit Kaep after he handed off. They put it on the Refs to call something and the Refs didn't do it.

I dont think Im being thick. I think theirs a presumption that the RO is the cause and the injuries are effects. Its not the case. The redskins deciding to continue using it while knowingly using an already injured RG3 is just piss poor coaching that Shannahan still has yet to admit too. Its not an achilles heal of the RO.

 

[Scottemojo]

Now you are being thick. The Skins continued to call pistol option runs after RGIII got dinged. Remember him one legging it to the sticks vs us? Remember him one legging it vs the Boys? The guy could barely walk on a sprained knee and Shanahan kept calling the play that put the most wear and tear on him, a running play where he could keep it. Don't pretend that had no effect. Also, at least two of those injury plays were single back pistol sets with a bootleg single read and run. Option or no, the Redskins rely on RGIII's athleticism in space and then after he got injured they did not dial back use of the read option to protect him.

And the point I was making, and a valid point it is, if the DE just crashes down on the QB every time, he can get a free shot on the QB at will. It is a play fake, the D can say they bit on the fake. Watch the SB again, it is exactly what the ravens did to begin the game. The continually hit Kaep after he handed off. They put it on the Refs to call something and the Refs didn't do it.

I dont think Im being thick. I think theirs a presumption that the RO is the cause and the injuries are effects. Its not the case. The redskins deciding to continue using it while knowingly using an already injured RG3 is just piss poor coaching that Shannahan still has yet to admit too. Its not an achilles heal of the RO.

True enough.

 

[Tical21]

Last season wasn't a fair sample set. To my knowledge, nobody chose the strategy of hitting the QB on every read option until the Super Bowl. Every defensive coordinator watched the Super Bowl and I would bet good money most will follow suit. If Russell Wilson takes a hit 90% of the times the read option is called, whether or not Marshawn Lynch has a field day, we have to stop calling it. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the read option, with a franchise QB taking the snap, has been trumped.

 

[Cartire]

Last season wasn't a fair sample set. To my knowledge, nobody chose the strategy of hitting the QB on every read option until the Super Bowl. Every defensive coordinator watched the Super Bowl and I would bet good money most will follow suit. If Russell Wilson takes a hit 90% of the times the read option is called, whether or not Marshawn Lynch has a field day, we have to stop calling it. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the read option, with a franchise QB taking the snap, has been trumped.

Ok, I just rewatched the superbowl. Cause in my head I only remembered a few hits. And I discovered something even better.

While running the RO and handing it off, he did not get hit even once. Not one time. So whatever memory you have, its false.

He was sacked twice, and hit on a late hit while passing once. That was it. No other hits happened in the game. So I dont know what game you were watching, or what defensive coordinators are going to learn from it. But its not there. In fact, I would say some of the best plays they had in the SuperBowl were from RO.

If you dont believe, feel free to rewatch it yourself, or anyone else here that wants to confirm it. You can watch the 30 minute condensed version on game rewind.

So there goes that theory.

 

[Tical21]

Last season wasn't a fair sample set. To my knowledge, nobody chose the strategy of hitting the QB on every read option until the Super Bowl. Every defensive coordinator watched the Super Bowl and I would bet good money most will follow suit. If Russell Wilson takes a hit 90% of the times the read option is called, whether or not Marshawn Lynch has a field day, we have to stop calling it. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the read option, with a franchise QB taking the snap, has been trumped.

Ok, I just rewatched the superbowl. Cause in my head I only remembered a few hits. And I discovered something even better.

While running the RO and handing it off, he did not get hit even once. Not one time. So whatever memory you have, its false.

He was sacked twice, and hit on a late hit while passing once. That was it. No other hits happened in the game. So I dont know what game you were watching, or what defensive coordinators are going to learn from it. But its not there. In fact, I would say some of the best plays they had in the SuperBowl were from RO.

If you dont believe, feel free to rewatch it yourself, or anyone else here that wants to confirm it. You can watch the 30 minute condensed version on game rewind.

So there goes that theory.

They handed it off to Gore on a read option 5 times during the game. Kaep got hit around 12 minutes of the 2nd quarter, and was met with Simms saying he was hit after he handed it off, which is legal. He was hit hard around 11 minutes of the 4th quarter and 4 minutes of the 4th quarter. So besides the 60% of the times that he was hit, your assertion is correct :th2thumbs:

 

[Basis4day]

They're going to use Harvin in many different ways. Having him on the field is important not ony when a play is designed to give him the ball but equally important to use him as misdirection. What's going to give opposing defenses fits is empty backfields then motioning harvin into the backfield.

That being said, we should expect to have a run first offense primarily through lynch that beats up and wears down defenses over the course of the game. The read option is a change up, not an offense.

Harvin is but one component on an offense with many different players with unique skill sets I'm exited to see. No matter who we have on the team, we can only play 11 men at any one time. I'm jacked up for the possibilities.

 

[Cartire]

Last season wasn't a fair sample set. To my knowledge, nobody chose the strategy of hitting the QB on every read option until the Super Bowl. Every defensive coordinator watched the Super Bowl and I would bet good money most will follow suit. If Russell Wilson takes a hit 90% of the times the read option is called, whether or not Marshawn Lynch has a field day, we have to stop calling it. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the read option, with a franchise QB taking the snap, has been trumped.

Ok, I just rewatched the superbowl. Cause in my head I only remembered a few hits. And I discovered something even better.

While running the RO and handing it off, he did not get hit even once. Not one time. So whatever memory you have, its false.

He was sacked twice, and hit on a late hit while passing once. That was it. No other hits happened in the game. So I dont know what game you were watching, or what defensive coordinators are going to learn from it. But its not there. In fact, I would say some of the best plays they had in the SuperBowl were from RO.

If you dont believe, feel free to rewatch it yourself, or anyone else here that wants to confirm it. You can watch the 30 minute condensed version on game rewind.

So there goes that theory.

They handed it off to Gore on a read option 5 times during the game. Kaep got hit around 12 minutes of the 2nd quarter, and was met with Simms saying he was hit after he handed it off, which is legal. He was hit hard around 11 minutes of the 4th quarter and 4 minutes of the 4th quarter. So besides the 60% of the times that he was hit, your assertion is correct :th2thumbs:

Are you talking about the tapps where he didnt even fall down? Those are not hits. If they are not hard enough to knock him down, they are not hits. No, he did not get hit. Dude, your reaching for straws. Not one play was he hit on to the ground after he handed it off. That hardest 'hit' he took on RO was at 11:34 in the 4th. Where he was pushed forward into his own lineman. If you want that to be a hit. Ill give you that. Ok, he got 1 hit on him after handing it off in the 4th qrt. Time to abandon the RO, Ravens figured it out after it was ran 14 times prior in the game, more then half the time successfully. And of course a few more times afterward successfully.

And there was 15 RO plays where he handed it off to either Gore or Hunter.

Its ok to be wrong. Because you are very.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Last season wasn't a fair sample set. To my knowledge, nobody chose the strategy of hitting the QB on every read option until the Super Bowl. Every defensive coordinator watched the Super Bowl and I would bet good money most will follow suit. If Russell Wilson takes a hit 90% of the times the read option is called, whether or not Marshawn Lynch has a field day, we have to stop calling it. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the read option, with a franchise QB taking the snap, has been trumped.

Ok, I just rewatched the superbowl. Cause in my head I only remembered a few hits. And I discovered something even better.

While running the RO and handing it off, he did not get hit even once. Not one time. So whatever memory you have, its false.

He was sacked twice, and hit on a late hit while passing once. That was it. No other hits happened in the game. So I dont know what game you were watching, or what defensive coordinators are going to learn from it. But its not there. In fact, I would say some of the best plays they had in the SuperBowl were from RO.

If you dont believe, feel free to rewatch it yourself, or anyone else here that wants to confirm it. You can watch the 30 minute condensed version on game rewind.

So there goes that theory.

That is what I noticed so I have no idea what game Scotmojo was watching.

 

[Largent80]

Moving Harvin around to different spots will create a nightmare for opposing DC's.

 

[sutz]

They're going to use Harvin in many different ways. Having him on the field is important not ony when a play is designed to give him the ball but equally important to use him as misdirection. What's going to give opposing defenses fits is empty backfields then motioning harvin into the backfield.

That being said, we should expect to have a run first offense primarily through lynch that beats up and wears down defenses over the course of the game. The read option is a change up, not an offense.

Harvin is but one component on an offense with many different players with unique skill sets I'm exited to see. No matter who we have on the team, we can only play 11 men at any one time. I'm jacked up for the possibilities.

And, there is only one ball in play at a time, too.

Good post, and I agree.

 

[Cartire]

And here Tical21,

I went ahead and captures/gif'd the hit at around 12 minutes in the 2nd qtr you were talking about.

and heres the 4 min 4th qtr....

and lastly, the 11 minute 4th qtr. Ill give you that one, but even it is pathetic at best.

Better bring out the stretcher. what ever will kaep do?
Got anymore? I can do this all day.

 

[mikeak]

IMO, the read option is going away for the most part. There are a few specific defenses we can target with it, I think the Bills game was a great example. But for the most part, it will have to go. I expect Percy to see a few looks form the read option, but it will hardly be a staple.

Count me in among the group who think the read option is going to not revolutionize the NFL. There are two ways to stop it. First, get a fast edge defense like ours. Difficult. 2nd, do what the slow ass Ravens did and just hit the QB every time he keeps or hands off. Doesn't matter, just hit the QB. Put the onus on the officials to call penalties that they shouldn't. The whole point of the RO is to make the DE choose the QB or RB, just have him choose the QB every time and leave the RB for a linebacker or safety. Let him punish both the OC and QB for even thinking read option.

Disagree - it won't go away. In general it forces defenses to stay honest and that buys enough time in the rest of the game to keep doing it. Will teams run it continously - nope but enough to keep the defenses honest.

And about the hitting the qb - that tactic works great until teams go to the NHL / baseball way of settling things. You hit our qb just because you felt like it well how about we just hit yours even if you don't run a read offense........ what is the difference? If they just gave you 15 yards that is all they will give us.

REMEMBER game checks are taken from the players and can't be paid by the teams. Running over the qb's because you can will be very short lived

 

[mikeak]

Watching the ducks destroy collin klein last year in there bowl game really popped into my mind on how to stop the read option in the nfl. Ok you can keep giving it your running back but were going to drill your qb every time. Our defense knows the qb isn't going to have the ball as hes target number 1 every time. Yeah your down a defender now but your qb just got smashed, cant do that more then 3 times a game all season. Russel Wilson stopped running the ball as often after week 16, they ran the read option but he never kept it. I have been thinking this all off season too, ill go ahead and point out week 8 how the read option isn't apart of the seahawks offense with Wilson running.

Klein running an offense is the same as Tebow running it. You assume he won't throw and when he does you know he sucks at it. Putting RW in there is slightly different. There is a reason the guy went undrafted.......

I can't remember what team caused the change of running into the return man rule. Boise? Ducks? whatever - it was in one bowl game they ran into the return guy every time since it was a 5 yard penalty and it was simply worth it. 1) The refs should have tossed the players doing it and 2) next year it was changed to 15 yards

 

[Tical21]

And here Tical21,

I went ahead and captures/gif'd the hit at around 12 minutes in the 2nd qtr you were talking about.

and heres the 4 min 4th qtr....

and lastly, the 11 minute 4th qtr. Ill give you that one, but even it is pathetic at best.

Better bring out the stretcher. what ever will kaep do?
Got anymore? I can do this all day.

Don't forget, you were the one that called me out, talking your junk because my theory was so outlandish because the QB NEVER GOT HIT, NOT EVEN ONCE, THERE GOES THAT THEORY!!

I showed you three examples, of the first time a defense had employed the tactic, of opportunities for a QB to get hurt. There would have been plenty more if they weren't so far behind most of the game that they couldn't run the play.

A hit is a hit. These are QB's. You can't wrap them up and throw them on the ground, although it will be tried early and often this coming season.

Make excuses all you want, but next time you call somebody out, at least have your f'n facts straight.