Fire Pete

[scutterhawk]

Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.

The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.

Need a WAAAAAMBULANCE?
If you're bummed out with the Seahawks OFTEN being in the mix, then why even bother watching?
I guess the old saying must be true -> "Misery Loves Company" :lol:

 

[TwistedHusky]

The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

At the start of the year, SI had this roster ranked #7-8. We then had some injuries, but offset them with some trades. The addition of Carlos, Reed, Neal and the blossoming of our LB rookie should kick us into 5-7 just from that ranking. I don't want to post the multiple #5-7 rankings for this roster because then it becomes a 'well that source is not valid' or 'I don't trust those rankings argument' that turns into an insane circle.

But even though there are literally hundreds of roster rankings for the Seahawks (due to fantasy football, media, and betting)...let's use the ranking Nunya trusts, which was #15.

Because I doubt anyone would rank this roster below 10 now. That is clearly a function of Pete+JS.

Pass rushing was a weakness. Pete+JS fixed it. Now it is a strength. Corner was a weakness. Now it is at least solid.

The point I was making is that Pete underperforms a #5 roster once he builds it BUT HE DOES BUILD IT. It is still not surprising that he took a #10-15 roster and turned it into a #5-7. But without him, this would be #12-15, not #5. (Yes Nunyua, All coaches improve rosters to some extent. No other coach does it nearly as well in season. Not even close.)

The problems with Pete are well documented. And it holds the team back. But we are not fixing them. And those problems that hold the team back are offset by specific strengths in team-building/program building that improve the team to set those expectations so high in the first place.

Now, when we hit the playoffs - Pete tends to then perform like a #15 roster not a #5. I never said that conference championships should be the measuring stick. But certainly, in my opinion, with an elite QB you SHOULD at least win a single division playoff game in 5 years. We haven't. To offset, Pete avoids the curse that high costs of elite QBs create - missing playoff games.

So knowing Pete is likely not going to win divisional playoff games and for the most part, won't succeed in the playoffs (due to issues already covered ad nauseum), is looking great in the regular season enough for you?

IF not, you are betting Wilson could be better under another coach. No certainty after what this year showed, but certainly a possibility given the advantages great QBs get in the playoffs.

If you fire Pete, you have to be prepared to take a dip in roster quality for the potential chance that your elite QB could be unleashed with better gameday coaching, better offense, and likely a better defense (still not sold on Norton). Because the high floor/low ceiling approach Pete takes GENERALLY WORKS IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND FAILS IN THE PLAYOFFS.* (At least without the LOB it does.)




* It should be noted that we did change. In our last game, we built on the lead - we did not just sit on it. That is somewhat new. (Hopefully not an outlier) The tendency not to put our foot on the gas until we feel we need it is a huge reason we tend to get blown out and embarrassed by halftime the moment we enter a division playoff game since our SB loss.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Damn, literally admitting you expect the worst.
That's actually kind of sad. But hey, do you. I'm sure no matter what they accomplish, you'll be right back here to downplay it and make everyone sounds stupid for actually believing in the team.
What a strange mentality to go about sports and/or life. I'll never understand it, but oh well.

Go Hawks
11-4
Division Champs
5-5
Fire Pete and John
trade Wags
Russ Sucks
Hawks can't beat the Rams
Washington is gonna' sack Russ all day long
Historically Bad Defense
Everything sucks

 

[Uncle Si]

Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.

The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.

The issue with this logic is how much it relies on your hypocrisy. I agree with the sentiment that the division title should be phase 1 of an accomplished season.

However, imagine your posts on here if the team had lost? You expected a lost. You almost assured one. Instead, the team wins, outplays their nemesis rather emphatically, and your post is to have a run at the people you challenged before the game?

"There's no way Pete can beat the Rams."

Seahawks win 20-9

"But.. there's now way they will win in the playoffs."

Come on, man.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And not ONE person is saying that we are satisfied with just winning the division. Not ONE. It's the first step in many. But what do I know, I bought the t-shirt, so I'm clearly satisfied now and don't care if they win the playoffs :?
If people are gonna' spout out claims like they are somehow etched in stone FACTS, they should also be ready for some blowback when they are WRONG.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Look ppl are going to be sad when pete is gone and russ is gone and we are 6 and 10.


Enjoy this.

 

[Jerhawk]

Damn man, breathe in. You can't honestly be this doom and gloom. You can't even enjoy a division title? Not even a little bit? And why do you insist on raining on someone else's parade? God forbid someone else enjoys winning. Just because YOU expect the worst, doesn't mean you have to blast those who actually are enjoying this.
Doesn't make you a bigger fan or them a bigger fan, but it also doesn't make them clueless or stupid.
But, I seem to remember a comment that the Hawks never win clinching games. Which they just did, yet again.

The division title is nice. Makes for a great Tshirt. Unfortunately it doesnt mean much because the seeding isnt changing. I'm not blasting anybody. I just feel what was said was wrong. Facts pretty much back me up. I just refuse to be fooled by this team anymore. Seems like a typical Seahawk season to me,,,,,get the chipper fans hopes up, bomb in the playoffs, rinse and re-pete. The Hawks go into 1st or 2nd round of playoffs, get rocked in the first half due to horrific gameday coaching, they make a comeback in the 2nd half because the other team lets up, fans shout how close the Hawks were and are happy and content they even made the playoffs because they sucked 30 years ago and are convinced they will get over the hump next season. Everything is fine and dandy. I expect the worst and if anything more happens, its a shock. Its a win, win situation for all.

Wow.
You know, I used to think this way not too long ago. I would go to the casino, or any gambling platform i could sink my teeth into, and bet money against the Hawks. Lots of money. I nearly lost everything.
Key word "nearly." Because what I lost, the team won. While i was filing for chapter 7, the Seahawks were hoisting the Lombardi.

You're welcome.

But then something changed. I had an epiphany, if you will. What is the use in being so pesimistic all the time? My friends couldn't stand to be around me, because I was such a negative Nancy.
So i tried to be positive. About anything. I tried to be positive about life, my finances, my family, but above all else, the Seahawks. And look at where that positivity has gotten us. A division title.

You're welcome.

So I leave you with this. I urge you to switch from negativity to positivity. You'll notice that the wins taste sweeter, the losses only feel like happy little accidents.
Stay positive!

 

[pittpnthrs]

Need a WAAAAAMBULANCE?
If you're bummed out with the Seahawks OFTEN being in the mix, then why even bother watching?
I guess the old saying must be true -> "Misery Loves Company" :lol:

Its nothing more than entertainment. I just dont have high expectations due to a repeating pattern of results.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The issue with this logic is how much it relies on your hypocrisy. I agree with the sentiment that the division title should be phase 1 of an accomplished season.

However, imagine your posts on here if the team had lost? You expected a lost. You almost assured one. Instead, the team wins, outplays their nemesis rather emphatically, and your post is to have a run at the people you challenged before the game?

"There's no way Pete can beat the Rams."

Seahawks win 20-9

"But.. there's now way they will win in the playoffs."

Come on, man.

I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Wow.
You know, I used to think this way not too long ago. I would go to the casino, or any gambling platform i could sink my teeth into, and bet money against the Hawks. Lots of money. I nearly lost everything.
Key word "nearly." Because what I lost, the team won. While i was filing for chapter 7, the Seahawks were hoisting the Lombardi.

You're welcome.

But then something changed. I had an epiphany, if you will. What is the use in being so pesimistic all the time? My friends couldn't stand to be around me, because I was such a negative Nancy.
So i tried to be positive. About anything. I tried to be positive about life, my finances, my family, but above all else, the Seahawks. And look at where that positivity has gotten us. A division title.

You're welcome.

So I leave you with this. I urge you to switch from negativity to positivity. You'll notice that the wins taste sweeter, the losses only feel like happy little accidents.
Stay positive!

Was always a glass half empty person. Expect the worse and you're prepared for it. Anything better than that is a positive.

Trust me, I envy the people around here that see a few more Super Bowls in the Carroll era. I just cant see that in my wildest dreams. Thats why i'm all for a coaching change while Russ is still here and guarantees 10 or better wins a season. Team has been stagnant in the playoffs, let somebody else have a try with an elite QB.

 

[Appyhawk]

Twisted: "Pete has coached with a high floor, low ceiling approach that works."

The thing that caught my eye about this 'revelation' is how it precisely mirrors Russ's top talking point, "never too high, never too low" outlook as his key to success.

pit obviously values consistency too, but eliminates never too low from his equation.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

.

That bolded part says everything i've been trying to say. That belongs on a Tshirt.

Lets hope for the best. Go Hawks.

 

[Jerhawk]

Who would you rather have as Seahawks head coach?

We have to remember that Carroll also has brought a culture to this franchise. The grass isn't always greener.
If we move on from Pete for Bienemy, what if he totally fails and this all comes crashing down? What if Russell cant handle the tough coaching of Harbaugh. What if Nick Saban wears down all of our guys and fails? There's just to many what ifs.
At least Pete gets the team into the tournament. He's proven he can get the team to the top.

 

[Nunya]

The entire issue with Pete hinges on expectations, which really should be another thread. His strengths build these amazing teams and then his weaknesses hold them back.

At the start of the year, SI had this roster ranked #7-8. We then had some injuries, but offset them with some trades. The addition of Carlos, Reed, Neal and the blossoming of our LB rookie should kick us into 5-7 just from that ranking. I don't want to post the multiple #5-7 rankings for this roster because then it becomes a 'well that source is not valid' or 'I don't trust those rankings argument' that turns into an insane circle.

Nice cop-out. So you don't want to provide proof that your claim is correct and that the Seahawks roster ranking is what you claim (even though your whole argument is based on your roster ranking claim) because you don't want to argue over the source???? Give me a break. We can disagree on how the source rated the rosters, but that is not what we are discussing. Post the SI ratings you claim exist. ESPN? Any source?? My Google Fu must be lacking. I can not find any pre-season or mid-season roster ranking from SI. The only pertinent article I can find is gushing over the Raven's roster.

But even though there are literally hundreds of roster rankings for the Seahawks (due to fantasy football, media, and betting)...let's use the ranking Nunya trusts, which was #15.

Provide them.

Because I doubt anyone would rank this roster below 10 now. That is clearly a function of Pete+JS.

So, no proof...just your own doubts. Got it.

Pass rushing was a weakness. Pete+JS fixed it. Now it is a strength. Corner was a weakness. Now it is at least solid.

The point I was making is that Pete underperforms a #5 roster once he builds it BUT HE DOES BUILD IT. It is still not surprising that he took a #10-15 roster and turned it into a #5-7. But without him, this would be #12-15, not #5. (Yes Nunyua, All coaches improve rosters to some extent. No other coach does it nearly as well in season. Not even close.)

Still have not proven the roster was rated at #10-#15 (just the proof I provided showing ranked at #15). Still no proof it is now ranked #5-7.

The problems with Pete are well documented. And it holds the team back. But we are not fixing them. And those problems that hold the team back are offset by specific strengths in team-building/program building that improve the team to set those expectations so high in the first place.

Please provide this "well documented" evidence. So far, all we have is your word....which does not cut it.

Now, when we hit the playoffs - Pete tends to then perform like a #15 roster not a #5. I never said that conference championships should be the measuring stick. But certainly, in my opinion, with an elite QB you SHOULD at least win a single division playoff game in 5 years. We haven't. To offset, Pete avoids the curse that high costs of elite QBs create - missing playoff games.

Still haven't proved it is a #5 roster. But even so, wouldn't one expect the ranked #1-4 roster to make it to the Conference games and and a #5 ranked roster to lose in the Divisional round? That is....if roster ranking meant a damn thing. Sounds to me like you demand that PC over-achieve.

Even so, the idea of setting expectations based on arbitrary roster ranking has got to be the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

So knowing Pete is likely not going to win divisional playoff games and for the most part, won't succeed in the playoffs (due to issues already covered ad nauseum), is looking great in the regular season enough for you?

So, based on YOUR logic, if a coach has not recently taken a team to the Conference game, chances are that they will not ever do it???? It is a damn good thing that Andy Reed was never privy to your jewel of wisdom. Before 2018 he hadn't made it to a Conference game in 10 years and had never been in the SB in his 20 years of coaching. I'm surprised he is still coaching based on your logic. He should have given up years ago....especially with his lousy .461 playoff win percentage prior to his SB run.

IF not, you are betting Wilson could be better under another coach. No certainty after what this year showed, but certainly a possibility given the advantages great QBs get in the playoffs.

Sure, Wilson could be better under a different offensive scheme....or he could be worse.....or he could still be the same. That is something RW will need to decide. There is nothing to indicate that RW is not happy with PC or Seattle and any claim that he is is nothing more than speculation.

If you fire Pete, you have to be prepared to take a dip in roster quality for the potential chance that your elite QB could be unleashed with better gameday coaching, better offense, and likely a better defense (still not sold on Norton). Because the high floor/low ceiling approach Pete takes GENERALLY WORKS IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND FAILS IN THE PLAYOFFS.* (At least without the LOB it does.)

This has got to be the largest pile of bulvine excrement I have seen posted in a while.

* It should be noted that we did change. In our last game, we built on the lead - we did not just sit on it. That is somewhat new. (Hopefully not an outlier) The tendency not to put our foot on the gas until we feel we need it is a huge reason we tend to get blown out and embarrassed by halftime the moment we enter a division playoff game since our SB loss.

Or it could be that we are playing other Professional football teams that are doing everything they can to prevent us from putting our foot on the gas. Just because a teams wants to do something, that does not mean they will be successful.

 

[Nunya]

I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.

Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Nunya,

The moment I put the multiple roster rankings up, the entire thread devolves into you arguing that this source isn't good for X reason, or DVOA not counting, or this isn't applicable, or whatever.

So I used your source. Then you argued against your own source.

You keep setting up weird strawman arguments and knocking them down. Not sure what you are arguing at this point or if you even know.

I appreciate the discourse. You are just veering all over the place and diving deep into minor points that aren't really relevant to the key of the discussion.

So let's simplify.

Does Carroll improve the roster? Obviously yes.

Is this a key strength of his that most coaches cannot consistently deliver like results on? Yes.

If you want to argue that then Carroll's faults are not offset by these strengths because his faults don't hold us back? Ok....years of watching him seems to counter that but whatever.

My argument was you cannot get rid of Pete for not getting the results that a #5 roster brings, because without Pete the roster is not #5. What is yours?

My second argument is that with Pete, we will play like the crappier roster we were (not #5) because his process works in the regular season but falls apart when facing better teams/coaches in the playoffs.

Is that what you are arguing against?






By the way, simple Google gets you this quote:
"The Seattle Seahawks are ranked No. 7 in ESPN's Football Power Index ahead of the 2020 NFL season."

Or go to Lineups.com. Or betting sites. fantasy football ranking sites. Madden. .....the list is longer than some of my posts.

 

[Hockey Guy]

I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.

Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.

He shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

He seriously posted last January that he just wanted PC fired & didn't even care if the move worked out. He was just ready for a change & wanted to see if he was right as have some others.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Except that made complete sense last January.

Wilson was not being used well. It looked for all the world that he would have done better under an offensive coach, and we were already losing defensive effectiveness. Betting on Wilson was a reasonable risk and betting on Wilson would have meant moving away from Pete.

This year somewhat indicated that the 'Let Wilson carry the team like Aaron Rodgers did" approach was not going to work. He had the chance instead of better results, they got worse.

But pretending that there was not a reasonable hint that this team would be better focusing more on what Wilson did well and leveraging it? That isn't all honest.

There were plenty of reasons that looking at another coach was a reasonable gamble, because back then,Pete was not open to giving Wilson the keys to this team. In hindsight, maybe Pete was right - but last January betting on Wilson vs betting on Pete was not an insane stance.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I admit, I was shocked the Hawks beat the Rams, but that didnt change how I feel about the team. If Seattle makes it further than the second round of the playoffs, I promise I will eat more crow than anybody on this board. I just cant see it happening though. Again, I see Carroll blowing it with horrible game day coaching. Its just happened so often the past 4 or 5 years, that its more probable than not.

Dude, you are the one that guaranteed that the Seahawks would NEVER beat the Rams. Nobody takes any of your "guarantees" serious anymore (if they ever did). I also doubt you will "eat crow". You will just make excuses for their wins and claim they were flukes.

Can you point out where I guaranteed the Rams would win? I picked them to win because Seattle struggles in must win games, but I never guaranteed it.

 

[pittpnthrs]

He shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

He seriously posted last January that he just wanted PC fired & didn't even care if the move worked out. He was just ready for a change & wanted to see if he was right as have some others.

I still feel that way. If Seattle gets bounced again in the early rounds of the playoffs, would I be so insane to want those changes? That will make 6 straight years of no improvements and being stagnant when the playoffs roll around. Sure, the team could take a step or few backwards, but it could also thrive. I'm willing to take that chance rather than seeing the team doing the same thing year after year after year. Its not about being wrong or right.