Duane Brown vs Sheldon Richardson

[BigMeach]

Now that we've had to give up more picks for Duane Brown thanks to Lane failing physical I've noticed some aren't fond of it, think it's not worth it or are unsure. Obviously there is no way to know for sure now, but keep in mind the presence Sheldon Richardson has had so far this year (and he's barely had time to gel with the team, expect it to keep getting better). Even if it isn't showing up in the stat sheet it's clear he is a beast on the Dline.

If we can get that sort of upgrade on the Oline, is it not worth the picks? If he turns out to play just solidly at left tackle or better, and he is with this team for the next few years, is it not worth the picks?

Look at it like this, we always are picking late in rounds due to our record each year, do you think we could possibly find the talent to upgrade our oline and dline for Jermaine Kearse, the two 2nd round picks, and 3rd round pick (with 5th round coming back to us)?

We might, it's possible as we've hit well in those rounds before, but we've also failed in those rounds. To me this looks like a 100% homerun barring stupid unforeseen nonsense. But that same nonsense can happen with your draft picks, I don't need to name names for those here to recall a bad high draft pick.

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On a side note, imagine Brown keeping Russ' backside free of rushers. Now suddenly Russ can see everyone coming at him, we all know what he can do when he sees the rush coming. This could be more impactful than Sheldon Richardson.

 

[Seymour]

Ya. About Richardson and us paying $15M per year plus to keep him.

I just don't see this guy helping enough to justify past this season...assuming $$ ^^^^^

Brown is wait and see, but I believe we will see a clear and obvious difference and far easier to justify.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Sheldon is a lot younger than Duane.

 

[BigMeach]

Perhaps the title is throwing my meaning. I'm not comparing them as to who will be better for the team. More in a package of players vs. draft picks.

And I would disagree on the value of Richardson, if he does end up costing us a lot of money oh well it's worth it to me... I think he is the main reason that our younger dlinemen are having success. If you have to pay him and lose some other players, so be it. Also who knows how much we end up paying the guy, this FO knows what it's doing.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

I don't think it'll come down to Brown or Richardson.

I think it'll be between Brown/Clark and Avril/Bennett.

Richardson acquisition has always felt to me like the succession plan for Bennett. And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Which is not to be unexpected. In fact it should be fully anticipated.

I believe Seattle will push hard to keep SR and Brown. Contracts I see as in play are Avril (almost no dead money), Lane, Bennett, Joeckel, Lacy and Graham (UFA).

Between that list, there is plenty to keep Brown and Richardson. From this list, Lacy, Lane and Joeckel would more than pay for SR's massive deal and an extension for Brown. And even some of Clark's new deal.

 

[BigMeach]

I don't think it'll come down to Brown or Richardson.

I think it'll be between Brown/Clark and Avril/Bennett.

Richardson acquisition has always felt to me like the succession plan for Bennett. And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Which is not to be unexpected. In fact it should be fully anticipated.

I believe Seattle will push hard to keep SR and Brown. Contracts I see as in play are Avril (almost no dead money), Lane, Bennett, Joeckel, Lacy and Graham (UFA).

Between that list, there is plenty to keep Brown and Richardson. From this list, Lacy, Lane and Joeckel would more than pay for SR's massive deal and an extension for Brown. And even some of Clark's new deal.

I would agree completely though there are likely other contracts at play also depending on how the cap works out.

 

[SNDavidson]

I think we'll pay Duane and pray that Malik wakes up.

 

[Seymour]

Perhaps the title is throwing my meaning. I'm not comparing them as to who will be better for the team. More in a package of players vs. draft picks.

And I would disagree on the value of Richardson, if he does end up costing us a lot of money oh well it's worth it to me... I think he is the main reason that our younger dlinemen are having success. If you have to pay him and lose some other players, so be it. Also who knows how much we end up paying the guy, this FO knows what it's doing.

Tough to evaluate all that without having an idea of who will stay, their salary, and how long we'll keep them. That is why I questioned if Richardson will stick at $15M or so.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Eh, he slammed the door on two Texans drives last Sunday, including the penultimate one that got us the ball back. 5.5 sacks on the season. I don't think he's quite done yet, though I agree I do kinda expect to see a decline at any time.

 

[mikeak]

I am on the fence but obviously hope it works out

The issue is that we are putting a LOT of money into these players and in ADDITION we are spending draft picks that otherwise would have been cheap players.

Yes I get it the draft picks may not have panned out but you HAVE TO build your roster with a mix of expensive players and cheap players. The cheap players are supposed to come from the draft - if you give away your draft picks how do you get quality cheaper players?

Yes we ended up with Carson way late in the draft and yes it is possible to get steals in later rounds, but the chances diminish the further you go into the draft. I personally do not understand those that say "giving away a 2nd rounder in 2019 is like free money because it is so far in the future". Like do you not plan to be a fan then? Lets just say you manage to get someone else's draft pick for 2019 does that somehow mean you don't have one draft pick less? (no is the answer)

So to summarize - in my opinion I do think it is worth it for these two guys but we better get more than just this season from them or win the superbowl. If we manage to resign them then the question is who leaves (Graham)

 

[johnnyfever]

This year we saw the change in philosophy as far as going for the mercinaries. Patriots have had success with this. Pay key guys, get mediocre guys to perform above their pay grade (luck and coaching) and bring in one year guys that if they work great you might not be able to afford in the future, but if they don't you don't effect your cap on long contracts.

We will need to see if this works out in a multiple year scenario. So far it seems to be ok depending on how we draft in 18.

 

[seahawkfreak]

And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Eh, he slammed the door on two Texans drives last Sunday, including the penultimate one that got us the ball back. 5.5 sacks on the season. I don't think he's quite done yet, though I agree I do kinda expect to see a decline at any time.

I can't tell whether Bennett is declining or not. I know he has still been making ridiculous blow up plays while being injured. He also already has more sacks than he did last year. That said I am not sure if his rate of putting pressure on the QB has declined or not. Bennett is also doubled teamed quit often.

Even if Bennett has a pro bowl year I really don't think he will be here too much longer past this season.

 

[mikeak]

And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Eh, he slammed the door on two Texans drives last Sunday, including the penultimate one that got us the ball back. 5.5 sacks on the season. I don't think he's quite done yet, though I agree I do kinda expect to see a decline at any time.

I can't tell whether Bennett is declining or not. I know he has still been making ridiculous blow up plays while being injured. He also already has more sacks than he did last year. That said I am not sure if his rate of putting pressure on the QB has declined or not. Bennett is also doubled teamed quit often.

Even if Bennett has a pro bowl year I really don't think he will be here too much longer past this season.

Bennett's contract was structured to hit HEAVY this year. It declines a lot in cap hit after this year so he could be cut relatively cheap.

On the other hand he doesn't have the big money at the tail end like many contracts. It is pretty even and goes down after this year to about $8million for the next two years then final year is around $10million

I expect a minimum of two more years of Bennett

Besides the sack he had the game saving tackle by the shoe in the Houston game laying down on the ground. Coaches see those things

 

[Hawks46]

I don't think it'll come down to Brown or Richardson.

I think it'll be between Brown/Clark and Avril/Bennett.

Richardson acquisition has always felt to me like the succession plan for Bennett. And it's worth noting that Richardson hasn't had the individual impact of being added to this team -- but that it's no coincidence that Reed and Jones are benefitting greatly playing next to Richardson who is eating up the blocking. Bennett is not playing significantly improved. It's very possible that we are witnessing the beginning of his decline in terms of his prime productivity.

Which is not to be unexpected. In fact it should be fully anticipated.

I believe Seattle will push hard to keep SR and Brown. Contracts I see as in play are Avril (almost no dead money), Lane, Bennett, Joeckel, Lacy and Graham (UFA).

Between that list, there is plenty to keep Brown and Richardson. From this list, Lacy, Lane and Joeckel would more than pay for SR's massive deal and an extension for Brown. And even some of Clark's new deal.

Just curious, how do you see Bennett declining ? He's leading the team in sacks and run stops. Also doing it with a bad plantar fascia.

I thought he looked like he was declining in TC and the preseason, but once it mattered....he's balled out. He was pullinlg a savvy veteran move and saving it for when it mattered.

 

[bigskydoc]

Both trades are huge and are well worth the cost.

As to which is worth more, I think it remains to be seen. The biggest potential beneficiary of the Brown trade, IMHO, is Graham. Yes Wilson gets an incremental improvement, and the backs get a similar incremental improvement, but this should completely free Graham up to do what he does best. :sarcasm_on: Help Ifedi out on the right side.

It is entirely possible that the Brown effect improves the play of the entire line by allowing Britt to shade to the right.

If so, then I think the backs see the most improvement from this deal.

I don't think we see a huge increase in Wilson's numbers as the guy is already producing historically good numbers. I do think he will look better, and more at ease, doing it, but I'm not sure how much better his stats can get.

 

[purpleneer]

Both good moves that have substantial long-term cost, but not crippling. It adds to the difficulty in making decisions on cap use, but having the two studs newly in-house might just make it easier to make the necessary adjustments to where the big contracts are. Each big money player on defense is worth what they get paid, but the sum of them has proven (in my eyes) to take too much from the offense in terms of reliability. Maybe the ripple effect of a top LT, along with development of receivers and adding a true TE (either letting Graham go in FA or treating him as a WR), is enough to have an offense to count on.
Bennett isn't done, but for darn sure needs to see lower snap totals than he was playing. Some of that comes from an O that helps keep the entire D from playing too much.

 

[BigMeach]

Both trades are huge and are well worth the cost.

As to which is worth more, I think it remains to be seen. The biggest potential beneficiary of the Brown trade, IMHO, is Graham. Yes Wilson gets an incremental improvement, and the backs get a similar incremental improvement, but this should completely free Graham up to do what he does best. :sarcasm_on: Help Ifedi out on the right side.

It is entirely possible that the Brown effect improves the play of the entire line by allowing Britt to shade to the right.

If so, then I think the backs see the most improvement from this deal.

I don't think we see a huge increase in Wilson's numbers as the guy is already producing historically good numbers. I do think he will look better, and more at ease, doing it, but I'm not sure how much better his stats can get.

I'd have to disagree. The less 3 and out's the better RW's stats. The less 3rd down mistakes and allowed pressures from RW's backside the better RW's stats. The less holds and false starts because the guys on the line have more confidence the better RW's stats. More 3rd and short, less 3rd and ludicrously long the better RW's stats are.

Now, if this doesn't happen then yes, argument validated. But then it's just a matter of the line not actually getting any better.

 

[chris98251]

I get the feeling with the heavy draft of the secondary that may take a hit with a trade or something after this season, also part of the reason were loading up this year.

 

[kf3339]

The two things many of us before this season, and I mean MANY OF US have been asking for is a quality veteran LT who can protect Wilson blind side and a true game changing 3tech DT who can penetrate and command the immediate attention of the other teams coaches and Oline players. We had neither on this team prior to preseason.

So we went out and got both for some draft picks and Kearse. Yet there are posters on this board that think we gave up too much draft capital? REALLY?

What the Hell is wrong with some people?

 

[mikeak]

^ again the world is not black and white like that

People understand giving up money in FA and they understand spending draft picks on players

Now we spent BOTH in large part because we FAILED with our off-season FA attempts and because we FAILED with our draft pick because he wanted to ride ATVs

So the issue is spending both and it is a fair question to ask if we are getting the right value. To me that is a really close call and not an easy answer either way