Can someone please explain the 3 LBs at all times approach

[hawksfansinceday1]

Serious question. Rams are running 3 and 4 wide all the time. Do the Hawks just have no one worth a crap to play nickel? Does Pete think we'll stop their run game this way? When we don't why not go to a nickel anyway?

I get it against a team that runs a lot and mostly plays 2 wides with an occasional 3 wide set but doesn't go spread like the Rams. Against this team it makes zero sense.

 

[flmmkrz]

Seems Pete is just unwilling to change, he's gonna trot out his best players and hope that their best beats the others guys best. He just doesn't seem to care at all about match ups, which when you have the superior talent you might be able to get away with it but those days are gone.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Stubbornness?

 

[GLio14]

It works when Kendricks is playing. Barton shouldn't be handling that load. If Kendricks can't play, then go nickel.

 

[olyfan63]

It works when Kendricks is playing. Barton shouldn't be handling that load. If Kendricks can't play, then go nickel.

Pretty much that, in hindsight. Kendricks would have made a huge difference tonight. Barton shows promise, but has a lot to learn at this point. Hopefully much of the learning was accelerated tonight. Anybody know if how significant Barton's injury tonight was?

 

[cymatica]

It works when Kendricks is playing. Barton shouldn't be handling that load. If Kendricks can't play, then go nickel.

Pretty much that, in hindsight. Kendricks would have made a huge difference tonight. Barton shows promise, but has a lot to learn at this point. Hopefully much of the learning was accelerated tonight. Anybody know if how significant Barton's injury tonight was?

Wasn't Kendricks healthy the first Rams game when they did the same thing? 1 linebacker wasn't going to stop that offense

 

[olyfan63]

1 player in a key role can make a huge difference. Quandre Diggs, case in point, now we can play single high safety. Kendricks, with his skill set, would have been a big help in this game. How big a difference? We'll never know.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Their offense beat us at the point of attack and opened HUGE holes, so the LBs had to stay home. Their O-line outplayed our d-line. Period.

 

[cymatica]

1 player in a key role can make a huge difference. Quandre Diggs, case in point, now we can play single high safety. Kendricks, with his skill set, would have been a big help in this game. How big a difference? We'll never know.

At the same time, a bad gameplan can nullify a good player. Diggs playing tonight didn't stop them marching up the field at will, throwing completions to wide open receivers. Kendricks on the last game didn't stop it either.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

1 player in a key role can make a huge difference. Quandre Diggs, case in point, now we can play single high safety. Kendricks, with his skill set, would have been a big help in this game. How big a difference? We'll never know.

At the same time, a bad gameplan can nullify a good player. Diggs playing tonight didn't stop them marching up the field at will, throwing completions to wide open receivers. Kendricks on the last game didn't stop it either.

The fact that Seattle has given up the following point totals to the lambs in the last 6 games supports your contention:
42, 33, 36, 29 and 28
(and that 29 would be a 32 if Legatron doesn't miss what is a gimmee for him. Also would mean the Hawks would now be on a 6 game losing streak to Mcvay)

 

[justafan]

I am not as disappointed in the D as alot of people. Letting Goff to throw for 300 yrds isnt an automatic loss. Where I think we sucked on D was in the redzone. We usually play better than that.

 

[pmedic920]

And folks are saying Bobby is slow/lost a step.
KJ has lost two steps.

4-3 puts a lot of pressure/responsibility on the LBs.

I’m far from a guru here but it makes perfect sense to put a Nickel guy in SOMETIMES.

I don’t understand either.

 

[GLio14]

I am not as disappointed in the D as alot of people. Letting Goff to throw for 300 yrds isnt an automatic loss. Where I think we sucked on D was in the redzone. We usually play better than that.

Recently we've been very tight on receivers, not letting them get an easy reception. What I saw last night, was a lot of open receivers able to get more yards after the catch.

I don't know what it is, but the Rams always figure us out. They eat us alive when they're on offense and make Jared Goff look 10x better than he actually is.

 

[Seymour]

"It's all about the ball".

Except for when it isn't. ukeface:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Serious question. Rams are running 3 and 4 wide all the time. Do the Hawks just have no one worth a crap to play nickel? Does Pete think we'll stop their run game this way? When we don't why not go to a nickel anyway?

I get it against a team that runs a lot and mostly plays 2 wides with an occasional 3 wide set but doesn't go spread like the Rams. Against this team it makes zero sense.

It's not only that Pete doesn't trust our nickel DB (or dime for that matter), it means he doesn't trust the pass rush to get home in time to mitigate big plays from press covering and playing man to man, which is what he'd like to do.......and has done the past 2-3 weeks with trusting Diggs at FS.

That's what this is about, and why Pete went with the 4-3 zone last night and tried to play the same sort of game we played the first time around against the Rams.............an offensive game minimizing the Ram's scoring chances to FG's.

Why? Again, because the D-line was injured without Ansah, an injured Clowney and Reed, and not being confident enough to leave his 3-4 DB's in man to man coverage against LA's very good WR corp.

Didn't work.

 

[Jerhawk]

It can't be explained. It was a stubborn and idiotic approach to the game.

King or Amadi should've been on the field over Barton, end of story.

The definition of insanity...

 

[Tamerlane]

The idea that Pete is having a year long senior moment running "three lumberling linebackers" against a pass happy league is pretty misplaced. Let's look a little deeper at this.

This year Seattle simply didn't have great options at nickel cornerback. Justin Coleman was really, really good last year. This year's crop, not so much. Their first choice at NCB was lost due to serious injury right at the start of the year. A big blow to their plans no doubt. The winner by default became Jamar Taylor, who fans could not get rid of fast enough. Akeem King is not built for the slot and has proven over and over that he can at best cover low-agility, big targets.

In light of this the Seahawks have been keeping a third linebacker on the field on passing downs at a somewhat higher rate than last year, because that third linebacker is a vastly better player and athlete than any cornerback option they have had. It's not some abstract question of "modern nickel versus old fashioned 4-3". It's a very concrete one: Kendricks versus Taylor/King/Amadi. Kendricks' speed and agility are literally off the human charts and put King to shame (Amadi too in fact). Feel fee to compare their combine measurements - it may be surprising.

Add in the fact that "passing down" can turn into a running down and even if not, coverage is only one possible role of that last player on the field (linebaack vs. cornerback). Seattle's defensive struggles all year have centered on inconsistent pass rush. They have therefore dramatically upped their use of blitz and to great effect. ESPN had stats today showing they are now #8 in blitz usage and #4 in opponent passer rating when using the blitz.

Who gets much of the credit for this success in compensating for an inconsistent front 4? The lumbering linebacker, Kendricks, of course. Kendricks is by far the best blitzer on the team and among all Seahawks he ranks #1 in pressure%, #1t in sacks, #1 in sack yards, and #1 or #2 in tackles for loss (depending on where you look). In his coverage role, Kendricks has given up all of 267 total yards for a reasonable 1.19 yards/cover snap for the year. This ranks him between Wright and Wagner, and most of his coverage statistics are actually better in apples-to-apples statistical comparison than Taylor's or King's.

Unfortunately Kendricks is out for now. Next up, lumbering linebacker Cody Barton, who had the 4th best short shuttle time at the combine - the entire combine. Including all the 180-190 pound DBs and WRs. His elite agility measurements are also far better than King's or Amadi's. Barton has 32"+ cornerback length arms as well and was renowned in college for his pass coverage skills and pass rushing skills. So how did he do? Probably a mixed bag but against the Rams' passing game, according to PFF Barton got a hurry and batted pass while yielding only 2 catches for a grand total of 24 yards over 22 coverage snaps.

Let's not forget there is an opposing run game to worry about as well and we all know the Rams are capable of unleashing it with a fury. And that's what they will do when you go light. Ugo Amadi was not likely going to hold up to the onslaught of Gurley and his burley run blockers. He also may not be that good at nickel coverage. We may need to find out at some point but it's not like Pete doesn't know what he's got or is "saving" him for later. In the final analysis this nickel question had nothing to do with the appalling execution on display against the Rams. I think it was just a perfect storm of influenza, short week, road game and a much improved and angry Rams opponent who match up favorably in the trenches.

On a final note, Pete floated this today for nay sayers fixated on this issue:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/gbellseattle/status/1204096396791410688[/tweet]

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

The idea that Pete is having a year long senior moment running "three lumberling linebackers" against a pass happy league is pretty misplaced. Let's look a little deeper at this.

This year Seattle simply didn't have great options at nickel cornerback. Justin Coleman was really, really good last year. This year's crop, not so much. Their first choice at NCB was lost due to serious injury right at the start of the year. A big blow to their plans no doubt. The winner by default became Jamar Taylor, who fans could not get rid of fast enough. Akeem King is not built for the slot and has proven over and over that he can at best cover low-agility, big targets.

In light of this the Seahawks have been keeping a third linebacker on the field on passing downs at a somewhat higher rate than last year, because that third linebacker is a vastly better player and athlete than any cornerback option they have had. It's not some abstract question of "modern nickel versus old fashioned 4-3". It's a very concrete one: Kendricks versus Taylor/King/Amadi. Kendricks' speed and agility are literally off the human charts and put King to shame (Amadi too in fact). Feel fee to compare their combine measurements - it may be surprising.

Add in the fact that "passing down" can turn into a running down and even if not, coverage is only one possible role of that last player on the field (linebaack vs. cornerback). Seattle's defensive struggles all year have centered on inconsistent pass rush. They have therefore dramatically upped their use of blitz and to great effect. ESPN had stats today showing they are now #8 in blitz usage and #4 in opponent passer rating when using the blitz.

Who gets much of the credit for this success in compensating for an inconsistent front 4? The lumbering linebacker, Kendricks, of course. Kendricks is by far the best blitzer on the team and among all Seahawks he ranks #1 in pressure%, #1t in sacks, #1 in sack yards, and #1 or #2 in tackles for loss (depending on where you look). In his coverage role, Kendricks has given up all of 267 total yards for a reasonable 1.19 yards/cover snap for the year. This ranks him between Wright and Wagner, and most of his coverage statistics are actually better in apples-to-apples statistical comparison than Taylor's or King's.

Unfortunately Kendricks is out for now. Next up, lumbering linebacker Cody Barton, who had the 4th best short shuttle time at the combine - the entire combine. Including all the 180-190 pound DBs and WRs. His elite agility measurements are also far better than King's or Amadi's. Barton has 32"+ cornerback length arms as well and was renowned in college for his pass coverage skills and pass rushing skills. So how did he do? Probably a mixed bag but against the Rams' passing game, according to PFF Barton got a hurry and batted pass while yielding only 2 catches for a grand total of 24 yards over 22 coverage snaps.

Let's not forget there is an opposing run game to worry about as well and we all know the Rams are capable of unleashing it with a fury. And that's what they will do when you go light. Ugo Amadi was not likely going to hold up to the onslaught of Gurley and his burley run blockers. He also may not be that good at nickel coverage. We may need to find out at some point but it's not like Pete doesn't know what he's got or is "saving" him for later. In the final analysis this nickel question had nothing to do with the appalling execution on display against the Rams. I think it was just a perfect storm of influenza, short week, road game and a much improved and angry Rams opponent who match up favorably in the trenches.

Thanks for the info. Good stuff. I have a better understanding now of why we stayed in base so much. I appreciate your effort.

My concern would be this: the Rams are in our division. They have scored a lot of points against the Hawks since McVay has taken over, far too many and Pete seemingly has no answer. I would guess last year the Hawks did play more nickel against them with a very good player in Coleman at the position yet still performed poorly against a QB that other teams have made look like a Jr. High player (Bears, Pats, Ravens, et. al.) Regardless of any other mitigating factors, which of course there are some, the point totals given up to a QB who is at best middle of the road in the NFL to me speaks volumes. A "defensive minded" HC should be able to find a way to get his defense to perform better against this team especially when film is out there of teams nearly totally shutting the Rams down.

I am not in any way an anti-Pete guy. Love that he's my team's coach and am very much enjoying the success of the last 10 years, That said, this has to be some kind of blind spot with him as it concerns defending the Rams or some kind of personnel shortcoming based on the type of players he prefers on the defensive side of the ball, or both. Considering LA is a division foe, it's an important concern imo.

 

[Tamerlane]

I am not in any way an anti-Pete guy. Love that he's my team's coach and am very much enjoying the success of the last 10 years, That said, this has to be some kind of blind spot with him as it concerns defending the Rams or some kind of personnel shortcoming based on the type of players he prefers on the defensive side of the ball, or both. Considering LA is a division foe, it's an important concern imo.

My reply was obviously focused on the "nickel issue" which I think has been overblown, but your more general question about the "Rams problem" is a troubling one.

On the one hand, I think the particularly bad showing by the Seahawks defensively, and even more so offensively, last Sunday seemed like something of a special case (as I mentioned above). I've just never seen so little energy from the entire team. The most critical failure in the matchup IMO was the lack of pressure on Goff: Clowney was largely erased, Ansah was out, and Reed did some damage but it was not enough. What has held the Rams offense back this year is an offensive line that went from first to worst almost overnight and a (situationally) subpar QB that can't handle the heat. It seems their offensive line has improved over the year but either way the Seahawks couldn't exploit this weakness.

In terms of the broader chess match, we need coaches film and I'm sure we'll have analysis soon. In the first half the Seahawks were gouged in the passing game, but then when defensive adjustments seemed to have some effect, they were gouged in the (horizontal) run game. Much has been said about a "Fangio blueprint" for defeating the Rams offense but McVay is not an idiot and has been making adjustments throughout the year. The Seahawks aren't the only solid defense to have trouble (Saints did too for example). Carroll borrowed from the blueprint in the earlier game against the Rams, producing some success in the first half, but it didn't last. The defensive line also had more success that game. The teams that humiliated the Rams this year (e.g. Ravens, Niners) were better matchups, particularly in the trenches.

However much people like to joke at the Rams' expense, they are still a talented and lethal offense with three good receivers -- in particular an elite slot cornerback who poses a horrible matchup for the Seahawks this year -- as well as a strong horizontal and downhill run game and a brilliant play designer. McVay took over the Rams facing a perennially dominant Seahawks with a signature defense. EVERY defense and offense has a counter and McVay arguably developed some of the best counters for that signature Carroll defense.

https://beastpode.com/2019/06/27/seattl ... cept-goff/

In the first half of the season Carroll struggled with personnel fits and departed from some of his favored defensive concepts, with pretty mixed results. When Diggs arrived on the scene we saw a return to defensive form with pretty spectacular results over a few game stretch. But what works for most opponents may not work for every opponent. Whether it was McVay's "dagger" counter again that was responsible for gashing the pass coverage in the first half last Sunday, we will know soon enough.

In the end, the Rams are currently a bad matchup no matter what the opposing gameplans. While Kendricks *is* better than any nickel option we've had this year, almost no one in the league can properly cover the likes of a Kupp or Edelman who are incredibly agile and excellent route runners. Coleman is exactly the kind of player you need and no doubt Seattle will be looking hard in the draft for someone like him. The matchup in the trenches is even worse.

None of this means the Seahawks are "not elite" or don't have the talent and coaching prowess to defeat any team on any given Sunday. I think much hangs on an inconsistent and unhealthy defensive line. There is no "average" power ranking of one team versus all the others - it's a matchup driven league. Fortunately, or hopefully, the Rams will be dispensed with long before they can pose another matchup problem in the playoffs.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Yeah they likely won't make the playoffs though it's not out of the realm of possibility.

How things proceed over the next several years are going to be interesting to see. McVay has really gotten the better of Pete and I would think in his private thoughts it really has to stick in his craw. Hopefully this offseason he will evaluate his approach and find a way to counter the problems Seattle has had with this team. I know it's a relatively small sample size between the 2 but I'm admittedly not optimistic going forward. No doubt some of that is recency bias and I of course hope to be proven wrong.