Can Russell rewire his head to "take the layups"?

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olyfan63

olyfan63

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chris98251":gqb9npaz said:
That chart has not looked like that almost all season with Wilson, this may be the start of him coming to grips with the offense with Waldron.

That's kind of what I'm thinking and hoping. It seemed like we had more sustained drives, well, of course we did, we actually were ahead in TOP for first time in a long time.

That data suggests that Russell is sincerely working on making the adjustment to the offense Waldron is trying to teach him.

Fade, thank you for providing the data/graphic!!
 
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olyfan63

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John63":18se4x9f said:
OKay first ye she can he has been taking the layup on 60-70% of his passes before the Sf game. That said you have to take shots sometimes. Also, we are not a WCO team. What the rams run is not a WCO. We have 2 of the best deep-ball threats in the game. Just because he throws a long ball or tries to make a play does not mean he can't, he has been and does. Go back to 2015 and you will see what it can look like. If you really objectively look at every season he throws short a lot taking what they give him, he just does not do it all the time. However, keep in mind we had more WCO capable WRs then. Dk is not a WC wr, Baldwin was. Lockett can be, Eskridge and Swain can be. But remember you also risk DK going off because he is not getting his deep shots.

ow if you saying he can only take the layups well then you are saying only play half an offense. You have to do both and he does. Maybe not to your liking, maybe not all the time, but he does. Sometimes those attempted bombs are not just about a completion but also reminding the other team you can do it so they don't start taking away the layups. Just like you run sometimes even when it is not working to remind them you still can or want to.

I swear it is incredible how he can miss or not take a layup and all of a sudden he never does.
To me it seems you are stuck in black/white, either/or thinking. Constantly inventing things people didn't say and then arguing against what they didn't say. Did anyone mention WCO or trying to turn Russell into a WCO QB? The discussion was about reading what the defensive coverage gives you, based on the route concepts that are being run, and quickly identifying the best places to go with the ball.

Did learning to quickly read defenses and get the ball out quickly when called for keep Brees, Warner or Brady from recognizing and taking deep shots and hitting them? No, of course not, and it won't take away Russell's deep-ball superpowers either. It's all about recognizing the defense and taking what's available, moving the chains, and putting up points

Russell has a deficiency in the area of reading coverages and understanding where the opportunities will be, based on the route concepts being run. He's been working around it with his own set of concepts that the rest of the NFL has largely figured out, though it took them years. Russell is so good with his own concepts that he can often succeed with just them, IF he has enough time to process and find them. When the opponent has a good pass rush, like the Rams and Cardinals, Russell mostly won't have time to do it "his way". (The Rams had Robert Quinn who could run Russell down) IMO it's near-pointless to say, "Russell needs an O-Line that can pass block", because there aren't linemen who can consistently protect a QB for 5+ seconds. If there were such a thing, the team couldn't afford them under the salary cap without crippling the depth and talent elsewhere. No, what's needed are affordable road-grader run blockers who can pass-protect for 2.7 seconds. Sounds like what we had in 2013 and 2014, doesn't it? Along with that, we need Russell to develop a Manning or Warner-like ability to read quickly and get throws out in 2.5 seconds against a heavy rush.

If Russell developed the quick-read, quick-throw part of his game, he *could* carry the team past deficiencies in other areas. Russell is always going to have the deep ball skills that make him special. But only sometimes will he be able to create 5 seconds to throw. He does read single-high safety coverage sort of OK. Against two-high safeties and a team with a pass rush, he struggles horribly, because he never learned the reads. I believe and hope Russell is working hard on learning those reads and adding to his game.
 

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Fade":10h3n7qi said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1467955636344274945[/tweet]
The first couple of series I noticed that with the play calling to the wr screens and quick hits to the outside. It may have been ineffective initially but it was nice to see him get the ball out quickly. You're not always going to get chunk plays against a pretty good front 7. I'd rather punt from our 24 rather than our 7. But yeah adjusting the play calling to stifle their blitzing packages played dividends as well as Russ actually stepping up in the pocket and taking a lane. I still. like our chances at 9 wins. Sorry for being a dick earlier bro can we mash the redo button Olyfan?? :irishdrinkers:
 

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olyfan63":316sqpi6 said:
John63":316sqpi6 said:
OKay first ye she can he has been taking the layup on 60-70% of his passes before the Sf game. That said you have to take shots sometimes. Also, we are not a WCO team. What the rams run is not a WCO. We have 2 of the best deep-ball threats in the game. Just because he throws a long ball or tries to make a play does not mean he can't, he has been and does. Go back to 2015 and you will see what it can look like. If you really objectively look at every season he throws short a lot taking what they give him, he just does not do it all the time. However, keep in mind we had more WCO capable WRs then. Dk is not a WC wr, Baldwin was. Lockett can be, Eskridge and Swain can be. But remember you also risk DK going off because he is not getting his deep shots.

ow if you saying he can only take the layups well then you are saying only play half an offense. You have to do both and he does. Maybe not to your liking, maybe not all the time, but he does. Sometimes those attempted bombs are not just about a completion but also reminding the other team you can do it so they don't start taking away the layups. Just like you run sometimes even when it is not working to remind them you still can or want to.

I swear it is incredible how he can miss or not take a layup and all of a sudden he never does.
To me it seems you are stuck in black/white, either/or thinking. Constantly inventing things people didn't say and then arguing against what they didn't say. Did anyone mention WCO or trying to turn Russell into a WCO QB? The discussion was about reading what the defensive coverage gives you, based on the route concepts that are being run, and quickly identifying the best places to go with the ball.

Did learning to quickly read defenses and get the ball out quickly when called for keep Brees, Warner or Brady from recognizing and taking deep shots and hitting them? No, of course not, and it won't take away Russell's deep-ball superpowers either. It's all about recognizing the defense and taking what's available, moving the chains, and putting up points

Russell has a deficiency in the area of reading coverages and understanding where the opportunities will be, based on the route concepts being run. He's been working around it with his own set of concepts that the rest of the NFL has largely figured out, though it took them years. Russell is so good with his own concepts that he can often succeed with just them, IF he has enough time to process and find them. When the opponent has a good pass rush, like the Rams and Cardinals, Russell mostly won't have time to do it "his way". (The Rams had Robert Quinn who could run Russell down) IMO it's near-pointless to say, "Russell needs an O-Line that can pass block", because there aren't linemen who can consistently protect a QB for 5+ seconds. If there were such a thing, the team couldn't afford them under the salary cap without crippling the depth and talent elsewhere. No, what's needed are affordable road-grader run blockers who can pass-protect for 2.7 seconds. Sounds like what we had in 2013 and 2014, doesn't it? Along with that, we need Russell to develop a Manning or Warner-like ability to read quickly and get throws out in 2.5 seconds against a heavy rush.

If Russell developed the quick-read, quick-throw part of his game, he *could* carry the team past deficiencies in other areas. Russell is always going to have the deep ball skills that make him special. But only sometimes will he be able to create 5 seconds to throw. He does read single-high safety coverage sort of OK. Against two-high safeties and a team with a pass rush, he struggles horribly, because he never learned the reads. I believe and hope Russell is working hard on learning those reads and adding to his game.


the old black qbs are dumb routine. anyways, throwing short wont work for the seahawks because the o line can't block or create a hole for the receiver to run through. thats why every time wilson threw short, the play got blown up immediately. you and every other seattle fan can blame wilson if you want, but the problem starts with carroll and ends with the o line. which by the way, i thought they said they "fixed it" ?
 

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chris98251":25hcqlxu said:
Fade":25hcqlxu said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1467955636344274945[/tweet]

That chart has not looked like that almost all season with Wilson, this may be the start of him coming to grips with the offense with Waldron.

or pete carroll coming to grips with the fact that waldron is better at playcalling.
 

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John63":27ddkc2i said:
OKay first ye she can he has been taking the layup on 60-70% of his passes before the Sf game. That said you have to take shots sometimes. Also, we are not a WCO team. What the rams run is not a WCO. We have 2 of the best deep-ball threats in the game. Just because he throws a long ball or tries to make a play does not mean he can't, he has been and does. Go back to 2015 and you will see what it can look like. If you really objectively look at every season he throws short a lot taking what they give him, he just does not do it all the time. However, keep in mind we had more WCO capable WRs then. Dk is not a WC wr, Baldwin was. Lockett can be, Eskridge and Swain can be. But remember you also risk DK going off because he is not getting his deep shots.

ow if you saying he can only take the layups well then you are saying only play half an offense. You have to do both and he does. Maybe not to your liking, maybe not all the time, but he does. Sometimes those attempted bombs are not just about a completion but also reminding the other team you can do it so they don't start taking away the layups. Just like you run sometimes even when it is not working to remind them you still can or want to.

I swear it is incredible how he can miss or not take a layup and all of a sudden he never does.


These people don't like wilson and they never have. they just don't have the heart to say it, so here we are.

anyways, wilson can do anything, hes proven that. how ever until carroll and schneider stop being cheap with the o line and stop spending 70 million dollars on safety's, there is only so much wilson can do. which is why i am looking forward to seeing wilson in a browns/eagles jersey. they have an o line and thats all wilson needs. wilson has never needed superstars to throw to. wilson has made people superstars. Dk metcalf, tyler lockett, doug baldwin, will dissly (who wasnt even known for being a receiver until he got with wilson).
 

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Tinamedina":12qr5w99 said:
chris98251":12qr5w99 said:
Fade":12qr5w99 said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1467955636344274945[/tweet]

That chart has not looked like that almost all season with Wilson, this may be the start of him coming to grips with the offense with Waldron.

or pete carroll coming to grips with the fact that waldron is better at playcalling.

Still with the Pete calling plays...

We pass at almost a 3 to 1 ratio... but its Pete's offense.
 

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Tinamedina":1s5v57s3 said:
olyfan63":1s5v57s3 said:
John63":1s5v57s3 said:
OKay first ye she can he has been taking the layup on 60-70% of his passes before the Sf game. That said you have to take shots sometimes. Also, we are not a WCO team. What the rams run is not a WCO. We have 2 of the best deep-ball threats in the game. Just because he throws a long ball or tries to make a play does not mean he can't, he has been and does. Go back to 2015 and you will see what it can look like. If you really objectively look at every season he throws short a lot taking what they give him, he just does not do it all the time. However, keep in mind we had more WCO capable WRs then. Dk is not a WC wr, Baldwin was. Lockett can be, Eskridge and Swain can be. But remember you also risk DK going off because he is not getting his deep shots.

ow if you saying he can only take the layups well then you are saying only play half an offense. You have to do both and he does. Maybe not to your liking, maybe not all the time, but he does. Sometimes those attempted bombs are not just about a completion but also reminding the other team you can do it so they don't start taking away the layups. Just like you run sometimes even when it is not working to remind them you still can or want to.

I swear it is incredible how he can miss or not take a layup and all of a sudden he never does.
To me it seems you are stuck in black/white, either/or thinking. Constantly inventing things people didn't say and then arguing against what they didn't say. Did anyone mention WCO or trying to turn Russell into a WCO QB? The discussion was about reading what the defensive coverage gives you, based on the route concepts that are being run, and quickly identifying the best places to go with the ball.

Did learning to quickly read defenses and get the ball out quickly when called for keep Brees, Warner or Brady from recognizing and taking deep shots and hitting them? No, of course not, and it won't take away Russell's deep-ball superpowers either. It's all about recognizing the defense and taking what's available, moving the chains, and putting up points

Russell has a deficiency in the area of reading coverages and understanding where the opportunities will be, based on the route concepts being run. He's been working around it with his own set of concepts that the rest of the NFL has largely figured out, though it took them years. Russell is so good with his own concepts that he can often succeed with just them, IF he has enough time to process and find them. When the opponent has a good pass rush, like the Rams and Cardinals, Russell mostly won't have time to do it "his way". (The Rams had Robert Quinn who could run Russell down) IMO it's near-pointless to say, "Russell needs an O-Line that can pass block", because there aren't linemen who can consistently protect a QB for 5+ seconds. If there were such a thing, the team couldn't afford them under the salary cap without crippling the depth and talent elsewhere. No, what's needed are affordable road-grader run blockers who can pass-protect for 2.7 seconds. Sounds like what we had in 2013 and 2014, doesn't it? Along with that, we need Russell to develop a Manning or Warner-like ability to read quickly and get throws out in 2.5 seconds against a heavy rush.

If Russell developed the quick-read, quick-throw part of his game, he *could* carry the team past deficiencies in other areas. Russell is always going to have the deep ball skills that make him special. But only sometimes will he be able to create 5 seconds to throw. He does read single-high safety coverage sort of OK. Against two-high safeties and a team with a pass rush, he struggles horribly, because he never learned the reads. I believe and hope Russell is working hard on learning those reads and adding to his game.


the old black qbs are dumb routine. anyways, throwing short wont work for the seahawks because the o line can't block or create a hole for the receiver to run through. thats why every time wilson threw short, the play got blown up immediately. you and every other seattle fan can blame wilson if you want, but the problem starts with carroll and ends with the o line. which by the way, i thought they said they "fixed it" ?

The o-line doesn't block for receivers
 

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John63":jtnk6hjz said:
OKay first ye she can he has been taking the layup on 60-70% of his passes before the Sf game. That said you have to take shots sometimes. Also, we are not a WCO team. What the rams run is not a WCO. We have 2 of the best deep-ball threats in the game. Just because he throws a long ball or tries to make a play does not mean he can't, he has been and does. Go back to 2015 and you will see what it can look like. If you really objectively look at every season he throws short a lot taking what they give him, he just does not do it all the time. However, keep in mind we had more WCO capable WRs then. Dk is not a WC wr, Baldwin was. Lockett can be, Eskridge and Swain can be. But remember you also risk DK going off because he is not getting his deep shots.

ow if you saying he can only take the layups well then you are saying only play half an offense. You have to do both and he does. Maybe not to your liking, maybe not all the time, but he does. Sometimes those attempted bombs are not just about a completion but also reminding the other team you can do it so they don't start taking away the layups. Just like you run sometimes even when it is not working to remind them you still can or want to.

I swear it is incredible how he can miss or not take a layup and all of a sudden he never does.

I’m curious what your interpretation of a WCO is. DK would be an excellent receiver to have in that scheme. I think many people box in the technical aspects of a WCO but the premise is simple- utilize shorter passes with a high completion rate to setup the running game and the deep vertical passes.

My theory is our offense would do better like this instead of peteball where we hand the ball off to a washed up Alex Collins to attempt to setup the deep threat. DK is a nightmare matchup in a WCO because of his ability to box out on a route with a wide radius. Tyler is a born possession receiver and swain even looks decent in mid range routes. Homer has always looked good when given the chance to play the mckissick role, and as soon as the corners and safeties creep up on the slants and comebacks you try lockett or dissly down a deep post or seam.
 

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Funny how all I hear about is how he can't take the layups, do the short passing game, pass from the pocket, throw over the middle, blah blah blah. 30/37, two TD's, and it should have been 3. He literally just did exactly what some claim he CAN'T do. Imagine that :?
Will people acknowledge it? I highly doubt it. Knowing it bothers some to see Russ look like Russ finally (8 weeks after the surgery) is kind of fun though.
 

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SoulfishHawk":1emj23n6 said:
Funny how all I hear about is how he can't take the layups, do the short passing game, pass from the pocket, throw over the middle, blah blah blah. 30/37, two TD's, and it should have been 3. He literally just did exactly what some claim he CAN'T do. Imagine that :?
Will people acknowledge it? I highly doubt it. Knowing it bothers some to see Russ look like Russ finally (8 weeks after the surgery) is kind of fun though.
I never thought he couldn't do it, but it was obvious that he wasn't doing it for a while.

:mrgreen:
 

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sutz":1hgv7wn2 said:
SoulfishHawk":1hgv7wn2 said:
Funny how all I hear about is how he can't take the layups, do the short passing game, pass from the pocket, throw over the middle, blah blah blah. 30/37, two TD's, and it should have been 3. He literally just did exactly what some claim he CAN'T do. Imagine that :?
Will people acknowledge it? I highly doubt it. Knowing it bothers some to see Russ look like Russ finally (8 weeks after the surgery) is kind of fun though.
I never thought he couldn't do it, but it was obvious that he wasn't doing it for a while.

:mrgreen:

Exactamundo. We've seen him use the whole field before, so it wasn't that he is incapable. For over a year, he was favoring hero ball over taking what the defense gives. Luckily the 9ers all-pro LB was out and also their best corner. It was a good get-right game for him.

Now we will see if he can be consistent down the stretch, or if he will revert back to his old habits, which was the #1 reason for the boom or bust offense. Now we want consistency and sustainability.
 

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Good point. He absolutely CAN do it. But yep, wasn't doing it nearly enough.
And for the record, I get very tired of the long bomb in to double coverage instead of a guy open over the middle. Clearly the game plan was to go for the short passing game. Especially behind a duct tape O Line that can't pass block for sh..
At least the long passes on Sunday were one on one. He just missed on that long one when DK burnt Norman, again. He throws that in stride and that's an easy TD. I don't mind the long passes at all, but more when a guy is open. Not just throw it up and hope.
 

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SoulfishHawk":1rcrglja said:
Good point. He absolutely CAN do it. But yep, wasn't doing it nearly enough.
And for the record, I get very tired of the long bomb in to double coverage instead of a guy open over the middle. Clearly the game plan was to go for the short passing game. Especially behind a duct tape O Line that can't pass block for sh..
At least the long passes on Sunday were one on one. He just missed on that long one when DK burnt Norman, again. He throws that in stride and that's an easy TD. I don't mind the long passes at all, but more when a guy is open. Not just throw it up and hope.
Which was the point the week before. He threw long on several plays when there was a guy open underneath that had near certain 1st downs that reloads you for 3 more plays. :34853_doh:
 

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sutz":j3btn9ij said:
SoulfishHawk":j3btn9ij said:
Good point. He absolutely CAN do it. But yep, wasn't doing it nearly enough.
And for the record, I get very tired of the long bomb in to double coverage instead of a guy open over the middle. Clearly the game plan was to go for the short passing game. Especially behind a duct tape O Line that can't pass block for sh..
At least the long passes on Sunday were one on one. He just missed on that long one when DK burnt Norman, again. He throws that in stride and that's an easy TD. I don't mind the long passes at all, but more when a guy is open. Not just throw it up and hope.
Which was the point the week before. He threw long on several plays when there was a guy open underneath that had near certain 1st downs that reloads you for 3 more plays. :34853_doh:


Shhh. Honest and correct criticism of one Mr Russel Wilson is not allowed, unless you want to be labeled a hater.

Didn't you watch the game? It's OBVIOUS, that Pete finally just decided to let Russ do more of what he wants. THANK God he and Shane aren't holding him back anymore.
 

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Of course keasley, OP and LTH in this thread. Got to figure out a new way to bitch about russ now.
 

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jamescasey1124":1q7jvv4p said:
Of course keasley, OP and LTH in this thread. Got to figure out a new way to b!@ch about russ now.

There's no new way. If he gets better at doing the things he hasn't done well, I'd be as thrilled as anyone else because it will likely mean we a re winning. I just dont put the guy on a pedestal and pretend his crap doesn't stink.
 
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