Geno looked crazy good tonight

[DarkVictory23]

Look, I understand what your saying and maybe i'm not being clear with my point of view. I'm basically saying that Geno has had some good regular season numbers, but i'm not seeing how a lot of other NFL QB's around the league wouldn't have just as good or better numbers too considering the weapons on offense that Geno has. It has nothing to do with the defense. As for wins, if Geno can muster up 9 with a team, than I don't see why a lot of other QB's couldn't muster up 9 as well (or better with really good QB's). I've said Geno isn't a bad QB, but I don't see anything special with him either. He's an average to slightly above average QB, but a lot of people think he's more than that including you. We just don't agree.

I understand what you are saying, my point is that you have created a completely unfalsifiable position through which you rate him.

If he has good numbers, you just go 'well, he has a lot of weapons. Any QB could do it.' But if it gets pointed out that he has a very bad offensive line, you get to toss that off as an 'excuse'. Are we evaluating Geno in the context of his offense or just by his numbers--which you've already admitted are good? You can't talk about his 'weapons' but make talking about the offensive line off-limits.

So, since Geno's individual numbers are good, you fall back on wins. It's easy to say 'I don't see why a lot of other QB's couldn't muster up 9 as well', but then it gets pointed out to you that a lot of other QBs have failed to do that repeatedly, ad nauseum. And yeah, I looked back only a decade and a half, but what are the odds that the numbers are going to drastically change if I go back 20 years, or 25? Or back to the start of the Seahawks as a franchise?


It's easy to get myopia when you watch our team and see the could'ves or should'ves that Geno missed during the season and just assume we could plug some other QB who would fix those issues and forget that we also give up those positive moments Geno added that it's easy to take for granted when your team didn't do as well as you hoped.

That's why appreciating the historical context helps have a view that's slightly more realistic. And if out of 60 teams over the last 15 years have tried to do it and only 5 QBs actually had, maybe--just maybe--it's actually not as easy as we think it is in our imaginations?

 

[DarkVictory23]

Perfectly stated and agree 100%

Thinking Geno is mediocre to average doesn't mean you think he's the worst ever. Typical internet troll pattern is to give you an extreme position you didn't take and then make you spend effort defend yourself against that untrue assertion instead of the argument at hand.

My prediction is he'll have a couple of good games early. The Geno is Perfect crowd will be yelling from the rooftops and then after a few more games where he is mediocre they will just shut down the discussion with obscure stats or call people haters (you aren't a REAL fan) and blame it on everything else or call it old news. Normal pattern. But we will hear them early. What they don't understand is we WANT the team to win so we take no joy in being right.

The lack of self-awareness here is breathtaking.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I understand what you are saying, my point is that you have created a completely unfalsifiable position through which you rate him.

If he has good numbers, you just go 'well, he has a lot of weapons. Any QB could do it.' But if it gets pointed out that he has a very bad offensive line, you get to toss that off as an 'excuse'. Are we evaluating Geno in the context of his offense or just by his numbers--which you've already admitted are good? You can't talk about his 'weapons' but make talking about the offensive line off-limits.

So, since Geno's individual numbers are good, you fall back on wins. It's easy to say 'I don't see why a lot of other QB's couldn't muster up 9 as well', but then it gets pointed out to you that a lot of other QBs have failed to do that repeatedly, ad nauseum. And yeah, I looked back only a decade and a half, but what are the odds that the numbers are going to drastically change if I go back 20 years, or 25? Or back to the start of the Seahawks as a franchise?


It's easy to get myopia when you watch our team and see the could'ves or should'ves that Geno missed during the season and just assume we could plug some other QB who would fix those issues and forget that we also give up those positive moments Geno added that it's easy to take for granted when your team didn't do as well as you hoped.

That's why appreciating the historical context helps have a view that's slightly more realistic. And if out of 60 teams over the last 15 years have tried to do it and only 5 QBs actually had, maybe--just maybe--it's actually not as easy as we think it is in our imaginations?

I'll elaborate some. Numbers wise, it isnt equating to wins. That's why I bring up wins sometimes. If a QB is having top 10 or even top 5 numbers in the regular season, one would think it would equate to more wins since the team should be outperforming the other team offensively. Now I understand the defense stinks and makes it hard, but you and others think that the numbers Geno puts up are monsterous and awesome. I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a QB that excels within the system with the personnel he has, but struggles when the scheme breaks with errant passes and bad decisions. I realize other QB's struggle too when plays break down, but some are better than others when that happens and I don't see Geno as being very good at it.

You point out that other QB's failed to do what Geno has done with a bad line (Russ did it), but there's a lot of context to wade through too like strength of schedule, personnel they had to use, schemes and coaching, etc,,,. I thought Waldron was good and got the short end of the stick by being on a staff headed by Carroll. Many didn't. Guess we'll find out in time.

In the end there's a lot of things to consider. Some think with a decent line and defense, Geno can get it done. I just don't. I don't feel he has the mentality to exceed on the big stage. I hope he proves me wrong, but I don't think he'll ever get the chance due to his age and the holes the team still has to sure up in the next couple of years.

 

[pittpnthrs]

It's no big deal in the bigger scope of things. We all just want the best and to see our team succeed. If i'm wrong about Geno, great. Hope I am. If i'm right, who cares.

I see the team being middle of the pack in the next couple of seasons while MM tries to fix issues through the drafts and free agency. They could very well exceed my expectations along the way. If they don't, i'm perfectly fine with that too. I've been clamoring for change for years now and we finally got them. I'm just going to to enjoy the ride for now.

 

[DarkVictory23]

I'll elaborate some. Numbers wise, it isnt equating to wins. That's why I bring up wins sometimes. If a QB is having top 10 or even top 5 numbers in the regular season, one would think it would equate to more wins since the team should be outperforming the other team offensively. Now I understand the defense stinks and makes it hard, but you and others think that the numbers Geno puts up are monsterous and awesome. I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a QB that excels within the system with the personnel he has, but struggles when the scheme breaks with errant passes and bad decisions. I realize other QB's struggle too when plays break down, but some are better than others when that happens and I don't see Geno as being very good at it.

Ok, but our offense has been outperforming other teams offensively. We were a top 10 offense in 2022--better than Kirk Cousins' Vikings, Justin Herbert's Chargers, Aaron Rodgers' Packers, Lamar Jackson's Ravens, Matt Stafford's (and Baker Mayfield's?) Rams--and a whole host of others. How many of those guys would you give credit to Geno for being better than?

We were almost top 10 again in 2023.

No where did I say Geno's numbers were "monstrous" or "awesome". I said he's been a top 10 QB overall the past two years, which is what his numbers have been. This isn't to say there aren't QBs over the past two years who've done better. Obviously, there are. He's top 10, not number 1. But he hasn't been 'average'. He's been better than 2/3rds of the starters in the league.

Would I trade Geno for, say, Jordan Love? Yeah.
Is Geno going to go down as an all-time great like Mahomes is? No.
But we are winning more games because of Geno than we would be with an 'average' QB, which is precisely what should matter.

You point out that other QB's failed to do what Geno has done with a bad line (Russ did it), but there's a lot of context to wade through too like strength of schedule, personnel they had to use, schemes and coaching, etc,,,. I thought Waldron was good and got the short end of the stick by being on a staff headed by Carroll. Many didn't. Guess we'll find out in time.

I didn't say a bad line, I said with this bad of a defense. (Assessing offensive lines is difficult outside of like the last 4 years because there weren't many stats that measured the OL outside of QB/RB performance. Given what we've seen since these numbers existed, I'm very doubtful that Russ actually had as bad of a line as many of us--me included--thought he had).

And Russ, never, ever had to overcome anywhere close to as bad of a defense Geno has had. Russ only ever had one season with a below average defense as a Seahawks, and never once had one that could actually be considered full blown bad.

The reason I don't think it's reasonable to expect Geno to get 10+ wins and playoff appearances with a bottom 4 defense is because not only has Russ not done it, almost nobody has. Getting to 9-8, just outside of a playoff appearance, is EXACTLY the type of result you keep insisting Geno can't get for us.

 

[Torc]

As for Wilson and the Oline when he was here, it was obvious the Oline stunk (so much so that he went public with it basically demanding changes). It was also obvious that Carroll didn't put a big emphasis on the Oline because he knew Russ could make up for it with his feet,,,,,until he couldnt, and then you saw Pete taking players like Dee Eskridge over players like Creed Humphreys in the draft and it was apparent that it was never going to get better. That's why I hold no blame on Wilson for doing what he did.

the o-line stunk with Russ partly BECAUSE of Russ. They’d make a pocket and then he would leave it, and all of the sudden defenders had a clear line to him. His unpredictability had benefits but also drawbacks. Making it insanely hard to pass block was a drawback.

 

[rcaido]

the o-line stunk with Russ partly BECAUSE of Russ. They’d make a pocket and then he would leave it, and all of the sudden defenders had a clear line to him. His unpredictability had benefits but also drawbacks. Making it insanely hard to pass block was a drawback.

Yes the oline was great for Russ. Cable was one of the best oline coaches in nfl history. We also had so many amazing draft talent, i mean look at this list.

Ryan Seymour
Justin Britt
Garrett Scott
Terry Poole
Mark Glowninski
Germain Ifedi
Reese Odihambo
Joey Hunt
Ethan Pocic
Justin Senio
Jamarco Jones
Phil Haynes
Damian Lewis

Not to mention picking up former #2 pick Luke Jokell was such a steal for only 8million.

 

[pittpnthrs]

the o-line stunk with Russ partly BECAUSE of Russ. They’d make a pocket and then he would leave it, and all of the sudden defenders had a clear line to him. His unpredictability had benefits but also drawbacks. Making it insanely hard to pass block was a drawback.

While i'm not going to deny this, I will say that the Oline was bad enough for so long that Wilson did inherit happy feet. I've seen the Oline get blown up so many times with 5 guys running straight at Russ that it was insane. No wonder he was nervous back there. He was getting killed.

 

[keasley45]

Ok, but our offense has been outperforming other teams offensively. We were a top 10 offense in 2022--better than Kirk Cousins' Vikings, Justin Herbert's Chargers, Aaron Rodgers' Packers, Lamar Jackson's Ravens, Matt Stafford's (and Baker Mayfield's?) Rams--and a whole host of others. How many of those guys would you give credit to Geno for being better than?

We were almost top 10 again in 2023.

No where did I say Geno's numbers were "monstrous" or "awesome". I said he's been a top 10 QB overall the past two years, which is what his numbers have been. This isn't to say there aren't QBs over the past two years who've done better. Obviously, there are. He's top 10, not number 1. But he hasn't been 'average'. He's been better than 2/3rds of the starters in the league.

Would I trade Geno for, say, Jordan Love? Yeah.
Is Geno going to go down as an all-time great like Mahomes is? No.
But we are winning more games because of Geno than we would be with an 'average' QB, which is precisely what should matter.



I didn't say a bad line, I said with this bad of a defense. (Assessing offensive lines is difficult outside of like the last 4 years because there weren't many stats that measured the OL outside of QB/RB performance. Given what we've seen since these numbers existed, I'm very doubtful that Russ actually had as bad of a line as many of us--me included--thought he had).

And Russ, never, ever had to overcome anywhere close to as bad of a defense as Geno has had. Russ only ever had one season with a below average run game as a Seahawk, and never once had one that could

The reason I don't think it's reasonable to expect Geno to get 10+ wins and playoff appearances with a bottom 4 defense is because not only has Russ not done it, almost nobody has. Getting to 9-8, just outside of a playoff appearance, is EXACTLY the type of result you keep insisting Geno can't get for us.

He never had to overcome as bad a defense, o-line and rushing attack... at the same time. Closest he came to having to do that was 2017.

Our record? 9-7. 9-7 with a defense that finished 11th in yards per game and 14th in pts per game.

2017... the year he was hailed Mr. Everything and we finished with 9 wins.yet Geno finishes with the same win total and is seen as a failure because we shoukd have been better? Ok.

Apples to apples PFF o line rankings? Geno last year played with the 30th ranked unit. Russ, with his propensity to create sacks, ranked 3 spots better.

Again, Geno gets dinged for not getting us 'over the hump' with a worse team than Russ had in 2017, when he was hailed Mr Everything... the whole team...the savior.

What do you think our record would have been last year if we had a slightly better o line and top 11 D in PPG? I have the answer- bettet than 9 and 8.

 

[toffee]

Will Geno be a league MVP? Not likely, but he did receive MVP vote.

Will Geno be an All-pro? Not for a whole season yet, but he did for almost half a season.

Will Geno be a probowler? Twice already.

In my humble opinion, we are lucky to have him, and he had made me very proud to have created threads here talking him up two seasons ago when no one did.

 

[pittpnthrs]

He never had to overcome as bad a defense, o-line and rushing attack... at the same time. Closest he came to having to do that was 2017.

Our record? 9-7. 9-7 with a defense that finished 11th in yards per game and 14th in pts per game.

2017... the year he was hailed Mr. Everything and we finished with 9 wins.yet Geno finishes with the same win total and is seen as a failure because we shoukd have been better? Ok.

Apples to apples PFF o line rankings? Geno last year played with the 30th ranked unit. Russ, with his propensity to create sacks, ranked 3 spots better.

Again, Geno gets dinged for not getting us 'over the hump' with a worse team than Russ had in 2017, when he was hailed Mr Everything... the whole team...the savior.

What do you think our record would have been last year if we had a slightly better o line and top 11 D in PPG? I have the answer- bettet than 9 and 8.

It's posts like these that make me want to say - 'Your missing the black and white'. What do people think the Seahawks record would have been in 2017 with Geno Smith? I can almost guarantee they would have been worse than 9-7. That's what I mean. So many on here look at the defense and Oline rankings and think Geno's some miracle worker and state things like nobody else has ever done so well with so little. Do people honestly think Geno Smith (a pine rider for years) is so much more capable than so many other QB's? I laugh thinking about it.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Yes the oline was great for Russ. Cable was one of the best oline coaches in nfl history. We also had so many amazing draft talent, i mean look at this list.

Ryan Seymour
Justin Britt
Garrett Scott
Terry Poole
Mark Glowninski
Germain Ifedi
Reese Odihambo
Joey Hunt
Ethan Pocic
Justin Senio
Jamarco Jones
Phil Haynes
Damian Lewis

Not to mention picking up former #2 pick Luke Jokell was such a steal for only 8million.

Whoa, dude. Your over the top sarcasm sure did prove everyone wrong.

Ask the Broncos how it worked out for their line

 

[rcaido]

Imagine if Brady didn't have a top 5 defense every year and being in the worst division in the nfl...

Can you imagine Geno in the Patriots those years, he would have won every superbowl.

 

[JayhawkMike]

What do you think our record would have been last year if we had a slightly better o line and top 11 D in PPG? I have the answer- bettet than 9 and 8.

What do you think our record would have been with a better quarterback?

 

[Maelstrom787]

What do you think our record would have been with a better quarterback?

Probably just about the same considering the history of teams like the 2023 Seahawks, as @DarkVictory23 has painstakingly researched for everyone.

 

[CallMeADawg]

What do you think our record would have been with a better quarterback?

What do you think our record would have been with Ryan Grubb instead of Waldron last year?

That is likely to have more of an impact that changing the QB from Geno to someone a little better would.

 

[Screaming Judy]

What do you think our record would have been with Ryan Grubb instead of Waldron last year?

That is likely to have more of an impact that changing the QB from Geno to someone a little better would.

Probably a comparable record with Grubb. It was always Pete Carroll’s offense no matter the OC. The Seahawks had several OCs in the PC era and the basic system was always consistent.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Probably a comparable record with Grubb. It was always Pete Carroll’s offense no matter the OC. The Seahawks had several OCs in the PC era and the basic system was always consistent.

Conspiracy crap aside. I'm sick and tired of reading that spew in here.

Grubbs offense would run circles around the goat rodeo Waldron was fielding. Seattle would have performed substantially better on offense and I'd expect that to result in more wins.

 

[rcaido]

Probably just about the same considering the history of teams like the 2023 Seahawks, as @DarkVictory23 has painstakingly researched for everyone.

yeah it was historic, you mean like when Cousins got his team to win 13 games with even worst defense in 22. Vikings were ranked 30th in defense and Cousins got them to the playoffs too. Goff that same year got a terrible Lions defense to 9-8, same record as Geno. Goff actually improve last season, unlike Geno. Geno got only 20tds, the least amount td by a starting qb other than rookie Brice Young & Ridder. Minshew & Fields too but miss games.

 

[chris98251]

Conspiracy crap aside. I'm sick and tired of reading that spew in here.

Grubbs offense would run circles around the goat rodeo Waldron was fielding. Seattle would have performed substantially better on offense and I'd expect that to result in more wins.

If so then you have no clue the amount of control Pete had over the offense, all you need to look at is when Wilson went out and Geno came in and you seen Waldrons offense, we were all giddy at how it looked, then the next week it went back to the old, you would never know that it was a different look.