Geno looked crazy good tonight

[pittpnthrs]

I kind of glided past this point earlier but wanted to circle back and make a point here: No, they absolutely shouldn't, and the problem is too much NFL discussion treats wins like they are a QB stat when they are not.

I'd like to use Patrick Mahomes 2023 season to illustrate this point.

Let's be clear right at the beginning: Mahomes is going to go down as one of the top all-time NFL QBs. That is certain.

However, in 2023, Mahomes--who still had a good season--did not put in a top 5 performance. He was #7 in Success Rate, #8 in QBR, #14 in Passer Rating, and #15 (!) in ANY/A. Clearly, top half of the league but in no measurement was he top 5 and in most he wasn't particularly close to being top 5.

The Chiefs offense, in line with its QB, was good but not great. Near top 10, but not close to being top 5. (I included the statistical proof in a previous post.)


So how did Mahomes 'elevate' his team with his elite-ness? Well, he just happened to be on the same team as an elite defense and an elite-in-certain aspects special teams. And the storyline becomes you need a top 5 QB because Mahomes is usually that and everyone just ignores that, in this case, Mahomes happened to be the best player on what turned out to be the third best unit on his team.

But, you know, I guess he was just a top-5 cheerleader on the sidelines?


No, wins are not a QB stat. QBs get too much credit for most wins and too much blame for most losses. We just happen to know their faces better than most players on a team. Like I said, football analysis 'People'-magazine style.

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Mahomes didn't do some things that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victorys, sustain drives, makes passes average QB's could only dream making, etc,,,?

 

[themunn]

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Mahomes didn't do some things that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victorys, sustain drives, makes passes average QB's could only dream making, etc,,,?

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Geno Smith and his RECORD BREAKING number of 4th quarter go-ahead touchdowns didn't do something that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victories, sustain drives and make passes average QBs could only dream of making?

Remember, what I'm saying here is that Geno Smith did something that no other QB in NFL history has been able to do. What you're saying is Geno Smith is not Patrick Mahomes.

 

[pittpnthrs]

But this is my point - how in the would can you possibly say that Geno Smith hasn't elevated the past 2 Seahawks teams when in both years every single facet of the teams play outside of the passing game performed significantly worse than league average?

Seriously. Bad defenses, bad offensive line performances, and bad rushing games constantly for those 2 years - yet they got to winning records in both years.

You can say those other guys elevated their teams - but to what? The same exact goddamn thing Geno Smith has while having anchors tied to his ankles?

Ben's best year couldn't even get his team to the playoffs.

Philip Rivers might have been on cursed teams, but is your contention not that great quarterbacks are able to carry their teams past that sort of barrier?

Drew Brees? Sure, look at them before he retired, too! One of the best modern quarterbacks ever with a highly regarded coach aaaaand... yeah, his teams had losing records in 5 of his first 10 years in New Orleans.

Matt Ryan missed the playoffs as much as he made them and had as many losing seasons as he did winning seasons.

Russell Wilson elevated his teams, yet what happened when he was given a team that performed as badly on defense as Seattle has for 2 years straight? You bet your ass they were 9-7. What happened when he suddenly was expected to do it all himself? You bet your ass he ruined his own career.

I'm not saying Geno is better than any individual quarterback on that list. What I AM saying is that this idea that great quarterbacks can elevate their team to genuine postseason contention while dealing with the type of supporting cast that Geno has for 2 years is simply not a realistic expectation.

It doesn't work like that for anyone, even demigods like Mahomes and Brady. They demanded supporting casts and got them. Mahomes has the best line and TE, and Brady got largely whatever he needed.

There is no way a team with a terrible defense, a bad running game, and a bottom 5 offensive line should achieve a winning record, especially while being in a difficult division. Seattle did. Twice. You're running out of places that aren't the passing game to explain where the wins came from - and Geno Smith led that passing game.

I don't think we are on the same page here and we are debating two different things. I'm not saying great QB's can will their teams into the playoffs or win all the time. I'm saying that they have the ability to make things happen when gameplans and plays break down. All of the time,,,,of course not, but they rise to the occasion often enough that it places them in an upper tier category. I don't see that in Geno. Sure, he had some nice comebacks last season and I took notice of that, but I still believe he doesn't have the mindset for the big stage (post season or must win games). I've just seen to many 'deer in the headlights' moments and forced passes to form my opinion. He is also dreadful in the redzone.

There have been instances where average QB's succeed where their teams have been stacked, but even that is a rarity. Some QB's just have intangebles others don't like confidence and 'win at all costs' demeanors. I've not seen that in Geno throughout his career. Good to above QB when the system is flowing, not so much when its not. That's all. When Russ was here and younger, I always had hope that the Hawks could win because I saw it happen so many times before. I have zero hope with Geno. He could change my mind, but he's quickly running out of time to do so.

 

[pittpnthrs]

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Geno Smith and his RECORD BREAKING number of 4th quarter go-ahead touchdowns didn't do something that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victories, sustain drives and make passes average QBs could only dream of making?

Remember, what I'm saying here is that Geno Smith did something that no other QB in NFL history has been able to do. What you're saying is Geno Smith is not Patrick Mahomes.

You brought up the RECORD BREAKING aspect here so your actually making the Mahomes comparison more so than I. With all those 4th quarter go-ahead td's (record breaking at that) you would think the team would have been better than average.

That's not what i'm talking about at all anyways. I'm talking about being able to win a game against Mason Rudolph when you have to. Being able to muster up more than one TD in a must win situation.

I need to see Geno get a team over the hump at some point. So far I haven't.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The Seahawks' defense and offensive line were in the bottom ten in back-to-back seasons. Geno's tied for the most game-winning drives during that stretch. He set the NFL record for most go-ahead TDs in the final minute of regulation or overtime last year—a season in which he missed two games and battled injuries for 12 weeks.

So he's not Patrick Mahomes. Who cares? He's already proven he can be in the MVP conversations—as evidenced by his MVP vote in 2022. And at the end of the day, whether he's as good at elevating his team as some other greater QBs doesn't matter. All that matters is what the team does this season.

Regular season numbers are great. Shame they don't equate to anything. I'd rather see Geno not fold like a cheap tent in the post season. When that happens, i'll look at him more in the regards as you do now.

 

[Maelstrom787]

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Mahomes didn't do some things that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victorys, sustain drives, makes passes average QB's could only dream making, etc,,,?

Obviously, yes, he's Patrick Mahomes. You can't tell from the stat sheet last year, but you can tell when you watch. Stats are unreliable. Mahomes isn't a 27TD/14INT caliber passer, but that's what he threw last year (with only the 14th best passer rating at 92.6).

Despite this, he still needs a great team around him and a great offensive mind calling the shots to win a title.

Winning the Super Bowl is hard. Even getting there is hard. Winning in the postseason is hard.

If you drop Mahomes on a team with no rushing attack, no defense, and a subpar offensive playcaller (but a good HC for QBs in Carroll)?

You probably get 10-7 or 11-6ish and bounced early in the playoffs like so many of Aaron Rodgers 2010s years, a few of Peyton's Colts years, and even a few of Russell Wilson's years (see 2017).

That's just the NFL. A great QB alone is no longer a ticket to anything, and a great QB will very often not look especially great when the rest of the team is drowning.

Football is a complementary sport where units have a symbiotic relationship with one another. A faltering unit does not just affect their own performance - it prevents the other units from flourishing.

Matthew Stafford still has a career losing record due to the time-frame in which he had a supporting cast reminiscent of our supporting cast for the past 2 years. This includes 6 years with possibly the single greatest talent at wide receiver that the NFL has ever seen.

I don't know what else you guys expect from Geno. The argument that he hasn't elevated the team is just... preposterous

 

[Maelstrom787]

That's not what i'm talking about at all anyways. I'm talking about being able to win a game against Mason Rudolph when you have to. Being able to muster up more than one TD in a must win situation.

You gotta be shitting me.

The defense gave up 500 yards and 30 points to Mason Rudolph and let them rush for over 200 yards on over 30 carries...

Seattle only got 49 plays on offense to 71 for the Steelers despite Geno passing for 13 first downs on 33 attempts while facing a 34% pressure rate...

To say "ah well, he should've done even more despite being the literal only part of the team that performed well as every other unit got absolutely demolished" is outside of the realm of sanity.

Geno doesn't play against Mason Rudolph. The defense does, and they got dismantled as badly as I've ever seen any team get dismantled. Geno plays against the Steelers defense and, yet again, he was efficient, he avoided intense pressure to push the ball downfield, and he kept a team that had NO BUSINESS being in that game alive.



Even Steelers fans disagree with you. Check the replies to that. What the hell more do you want from the dude? Did that throw not elevate the team?



Geno dealt against Pittsburgh. Absolutely dealt.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Regular season numbers are great. Shame they don't equate to anything. I'd rather see Geno not fold like a cheap tent in the post season. When that happens, i'll look at him more in the regards as you do now.

How is this type of belligerence toward a quarterback shackled by his supporting cast coming from the same dude who constantly lost it over Russell Wilson not being supported enough? It baffles me.

 

[DarkVictory23]

So in 2023 despite all the numbers and stats you or anybody can or want to dig up, you don't think or believe that Mahomes didn't do some things that normal QB's couldn't do to propel his team to victorys, sustain drives, makes passes average QB's could only dream making, etc,,,?

Of course I do! But that's the point: All the 'extra' that Patrick Mahomes brought in 2023 led to a good-but-not-great offense. His offense was the third best unit on his team! But you want to gift him the credit for all the victories his team achieved.

Geno Smith ALSO led a good-but-not-great offense. The difference being his offense was the best unit on his team... but you want to blame him for all the losses!


This is the ridiculousness I'm referring to in terms of conflating TEAM wins as a QB stat.

 

[themunn]

You brought up the RECORD BREAKING aspect here so your actually making the Mahomes comparison more so than I. With all those 4th quarter go-ahead td's (record breaking at that) you would think the team would have been better than average.

That's not what i'm talking about at all anyways. I'm talking about being able to win a game against Mason Rudolph when you have to. Being able to muster up more than one TD in a must win situation.

I need to see Geno get a team over the hump at some point. So far I haven't.

Yes but you're pointing out exactly what matters - it's a team sport. You already said that Philip Rivers is a 1st ballot hall of famer but this is a guy who won just 5 playoff games in 17 years as a pro - 3 of those came in his first 5 years as a pro (back when the Chargers had players like Tomlinson, Gates, etc), which means that in the subsequent 12 years without them he won just 2. In fact in the ELEVEN seasons since 2009 he managed to win 10 games in a season just twice.

Clearly the team doesn't need to get over the hump for a player to be a Hall of Famer, but since you say he elevated his team "many, many times", I wonder by what metric it is you're testing him against. Because as far as I can see, Philip Rivers without LT and Antonio Gates doesn't seem any better than Geno Smith, except that Rivers gets credit for having poor players around him while Smith apparently doesn't.

 

[JayhawkMike]

This board sometimes lol. Basically Geno is better than Mahomes. ROFL

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Some things never change. Legit bent out of shape if someone dares to say anything negative about the almighty Geno Smith.
And yes, Herbert is better than Geno. FFS this place sometimes. Russ wasn't cutting it, he got sent packing. Glad he's gone. I want to see that clutch Gene from Geno. He's capable of being damn good, now I wanna see it in the clutch. I don't give two sh*** about stats. Wins and Losses, that's THE only stat that matters.


3......2......1.........

 

[Maelstrom787]

This board sometimes lol. Basically Geno is better than Mahomes. ROFL

Literally no one has said or even so much as implied that Geno Smith is better than Patrick Mahomes.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Some things never change. Legit bent out of shape if someone dares to say anything negative about the almighty Geno Smith.
And yes, Herbert is better than Geno. FFS this place sometimes. Russ wasn't cutting it, he got sent packing. Glad he's gone. I want to see that clutch Gene from Geno. He's capable of being damn good, now I wanna see it in the clutch. I don't give two sh*** about stats. Wins and Losses, that's THE only stat that matters.


3......2......1.........

You're posting that and accusing *others* of being bent out of shape?

Psychological projection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Nah, I'm just having fun. It cracks me up. Nothing more. I just enjoy the entertainment value of him. Some think he's very good, some think he's average. Welcome to QB in the NFL.
Side note, nobody has ever said Geno is better than Mahomes. Shoot, probably wouldn't even if they were drunk

 

[pmedic920]

Can’t we all agree that football is a team sport, and many pieces have to fall into place for any “team” to be successful?

Having an elite quarterback doesn’t really make a big difference if the other aspects are lacking, while having an average quarterback can be sufficient IF the other aspects are good.

Many make decent arguments but the fact remains, too many variables to claim that one aspect is the key. (IMO)

 

[pittpnthrs]

Obviously, yes, he's Patrick Mahomes. You can't tell from the stat sheet last year, but you can tell when you watch. Stats are unreliable. Mahomes isn't a 27TD/14INT caliber passer, but that's what he threw last year (with only the 14th best passer rating at 92.6).

Despite this, he still needs a great team around him and a great offensive mind calling the shots to win a title.

Winning the Super Bowl is hard. Even getting there is hard. Winning in the postseason is hard.

If you drop Mahomes on a team with no rushing attack, no defense, and a subpar offensive playcaller (but a good HC for QBs in Carroll)?

You probably get 10-7 or 11-6ish and bounced early in the playoffs like so many of Aaron Rodgers 2010s years, a few of Peyton's Colts years, and even a few of Russell Wilson's years (see 2017).

That's just the NFL. A great QB alone is no longer a ticket to anything, and a great QB will very often not look especially great when the rest of the team is drowning.

Football is a complementary sport where units have a symbiotic relationship with one another. A faltering unit does not just affect their own performance - it prevents the other units from flourishing.

Matthew Stafford still has a career losing record due to the time-frame in which he had a supporting cast reminiscent of our supporting cast for the past 2 years. This includes 6 years with possibly the single greatest talent at wide receiver that the NFL has ever seen.

I don't know what else you guys expect from Geno. The argument that he hasn't elevated the team is just... preposterous

Good post and I get everything your saying. The bottom line is that we fans that don't show as much praise and confidence need to see him succeed on the big stage. So far in his career, we haven't. Having what it takes is still in question. That's all.

 

[pittpnthrs]

You gotta be shitting me.

The defense gave up 500 yards and 30 points to Mason Rudolph and let them rush for over 200 yards on over 30 carries...

Seattle only got 49 plays on offense to 71 for the Steelers despite Geno passing for 13 first downs on 33 attempts while facing a 34% pressure rate...

To say "ah well, he should've done even more despite being the literal only part of the team that performed well as every other unit got absolutely demolished" is outside of the realm of sanity.

Geno doesn't play against Mason Rudolph. The defense does, and they got dismantled as badly as I've ever seen any team get dismantled. Geno plays against the Steelers defense and, yet again, he was efficient, he avoided intense pressure to push the ball downfield, and he kept a team that had NO BUSINESS being in that game alive.



Even Steelers fans disagree with you. Check the replies to that. What the hell more do you want from the dude? Did that throw not elevate the team?



Geno dealt against Pittsburgh. Absolutely dealt.

I'm not talking about the defense. We all know the defense sucked. I'm talking about Geno. With the weapons at his disposal, he threw for one TD in the entire game. I can't help to feel that a better QB would have done better than that.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Yes but you're pointing out exactly what matters - it's a team sport. You already said that Philip Rivers is a 1st ballot hall of famer but this is a guy who won just 5 playoff games in 17 years as a pro - 3 of those came in his first 5 years as a pro (back when the Chargers had players like Tomlinson, Gates, etc), which means that in the subsequent 12 years without them he won just 2. In fact in the ELEVEN seasons since 2009 he managed to win 10 games in a season just twice.

Clearly the team doesn't need to get over the hump for a player to be a Hall of Famer, but since you say he elevated his team "many, many times", I wonder by what metric it is you're testing him against. Because as far as I can see, Philip Rivers without LT and Antonio Gates doesn't seem any better than Geno Smith, except that Rivers gets credit for having poor players around him while Smith apparently doesn't.

I'll make it easy. Do you think Geno Smith could have replicated what Rivers did with the Chargers career wise?

There's a reason why Smith rode the pine behind QB's like Rivers and Wilson. Some seem to be forgetting why.

 

[pittpnthrs]

How is this type of belligerence toward a quarterback shackled by his supporting cast coming from the same dude who constantly lost it over Russell Wilson not being supported enough? It baffles me.

Lol. Apples and oranges. Russ was good enough in his prime to win (a lot of the times) despite team deficiencies. Geno isn't.

That's the whole point.