From NFL.com

[N3putts@]

B+

Seahawks

The Seahawks needed someone to step up in the fourth quarter of this game, and that someone ended up being Geno Smith. The Seahawks scored on all three of their fourth-quarter possessions, and that was mostly thanks to Smith, who went off in the game's final quarter by going 11 of 15 for 113 yards and a TD (he threw for 369 yards and two touchdowns in the game). Tyler Lockett and DK Metcalf were also heroes as they BOTH went over 40 yards receiving in the fourth quarter alone. Jason Myersalso had some fourth-quarter magic in him. The Seahawks kicker hit five field goals, including two in the final quarter. If you want to make the playoffs, you have to be able to win games under pressure, and the Seahawks proved in this game that they can perform as well as anyone when the pressure is on in the fourth quarter.

 

[LeveeBreak]

Many experts on this board will strongly disagree, no matter what Geno does. Too many reputations and documented statements with emotions attached.

I have no idea if Geno is our guy. He has been quite frustrating at times this year...but has made some great plays and had overall good games as well. I can give credit where it is due...and his 4th qtr play was very good. We need to improve our oline, no matter who the QB is and I have no idea why we aren't using all our O weapons (TE's are soooo underutilized).

He has my support through the end of the season and then will re-evaluate.

 

[toffee]

B+

Seahawks

The Seahawks needed someone to step up in the fourth quarter of this game, and that someone ended up being Geno Smith. The Seahawks scored on all three of their fourth-quarter possessions, and that was mostly thanks to Smith, who went off in the game's final quarter by going 11 of 15 for 113 yards and a TD (he threw for 369 yards and two touchdowns in the game). Tyler Lockett and DK Metcalf were also heroes as they BOTH went over 40 yards receiving in the fourth quarter alone. Jason Myersalso had some fourth-quarter magic in him. The Seahawks kicker hit five field goals, including two in the final quarter. If you want to make the playoffs, you have to be able to win games under pressure, and the Seahawks proved in this game that they can perform as well as anyone when the pressure is on in the fourth quarter.

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

 

[LeveeBreak]

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

No clue. Based on what I know about Geno, I doubt it...but no insights on how the 4th qtr went down.

To be fair to our OC...after the lions game, he was being hailed as a hero. I think being unpredictable in the NFL tends to be a good thing...not sure if we are too predictable or just not very good at trying to be unpredictable.

 

[Nunya]

Many experts on this board will strongly disagree, no matter what Geno does. Too many reputations and documented statements with emotions attached.

I have no idea if Geno is our guy. He has been quite frustrating at times this year...but has made some great plays and had overall good games as well. I can give credit where it is due...and his 4th qtr play was very good. We need to improve our oline, no matter who the QB is and I have no idea why we aren't using all our O weapons (TE's are soooo underutilized).

He has my support through the end of the season and then will re-evaluate.

It is interesting that almost every player that has played under PC thinks highly of him as a person and coach. .net experts: "He will never win a SB. Horrible coach. He is holding us back. Fire him!"

It is also interesting that many Seahawks player praised Geno said that the team was lucky to have him as their QB yesterday. .net experts: "Geno isn't the guy."

Maybe these "experts" don't quite have the expertise they think they do....or want us to believe they have.

 

[MyrtleHawk]

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

I think if Geno was going off script in the first 3 quarters, he would've been benched. In my opinion, I don't think Pete would've liked that too much with such poor results. I think there's more of a chance it was the other way around, if anything.

Or it could just be that none of the drives led to anything in the first 3 quarters, but they did in the 4th.

 

[Nunya]

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

Geno did give credit to the play calling for yesterday's win. I think Geno sticks to the script...maybe even too much sometimes.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

Both in routes to DK on the last drive were on script quick crosses cause Washington was sending blitzers.

Which IMO has been the problem with Geno of late, he's not trusting his reads as much as he was last year. He's hesitant to let his 1st and 2nd reads rip, leading to too much time in the pocket taking sacks and unsuccessful scrambles.

 

[Ozzy]

It is interesting that almost every player that has played under PC thinks highly of him as a person and coach. .net experts: "He will never win a SB. Horrible coach. He is holding us back. Fire him!"

It is also interesting that many Seahawks player praised Geno said that the team was lucky to have him as their QB yesterday. .net experts: "Geno isn't the guy."

Maybe these "experts" don't quite have the expertise they think they do....or want us to believe they have.

what do you expect players to say?

I'll never be fan of anyone who thinks ANY critical thought of a coach is heresy or that it makes Pete a bad coach. We have one playoff win in 7 years and its when the other team lost their QB so wondering if we will every get back to being a dominant playoff team is a valid conversation even if the other side is wrong.

For Geno he was on pace for 17 touchdowns and 15 picks before yesterday. I think wondering if that's good enough is valid too and doesn't make someone less of a fan than you are.

 

[Bobblehead]

needed someone? You mean, needed Geno just to play.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Many experts on this board will strongly disagree, no matter what Geno does. Too many reputations and documented statements with emotions attached.

I have no idea if Geno is our guy. He has been quite frustrating at times this year...but has made some great plays and had overall good games as well. I can give credit where it is due...and his 4th qtr play was very good. We need to improve our oline, no matter who the QB is and I have no idea why we aren't using all our O weapons (TE's are soooo underutilized).

He has my support through the end of the season and then will re-evaluate.

TE underutilized in what regard?

With this offense, the TEs are primarily, first and foremost, blockers. They are not and will never be primary receivers. Carroll, uses his tight ends to aid in assisting blocking up front, always has been and always will do so.

Even when they get the ball on occasions, tight ends are not the first or even third reads.

Tight ends for Seattle are mainly blockers. And with Carroll, that’s not going to change.

 

[LeveeBreak]

TE underutilized in what regard?

With this offense, the TEs are primarily, first and foremost, blockers. They are not and will never be primary receivers. Carroll, uses his tight ends to aid in assisting blocking up front, always has been and always will do so.

Even when they get the ball on occasions, tight ends are not the first or even third reads.

Tight ends for Seattle are mainly blockers. And with Carroll, that’s not going to change.

Completely disagree and this has been discussed on the forum ad nausium...go find the points made and then go watch the detroit game. I assume you follow the games...if so, you will have seen some absoultely stand out games with our trio of TE's all contributing as receivers. The past 4 weeks...crickets for the most part.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Completely disagree and this has been discussed on the forum ad nausium...go find the points made and then go watch the detroit game. I assume you follow the games...if so, you will have seen some absoultely stand out games with our trio of TE's all contributing as receivers. The past 4 weeks...crickets for the most part.

I think it’s very difficult to always utilize your tight ends every game.

Some teams just don’t have the favorable scheme and personnel to defend tight ends, like, Seattle’s defense doesn’t.

Seattle, can’t just always include tight ends into their game plans because the defense is solid with tight end coverage, especially, teams that have good linebacker coverage and a capable pass rush.

Seattle has what lost some offensive starters on the line since the Detroit game? It’s just recently Cross came back and when Cross was out Seattle employs additional blockers and chip edge defenders with tight ends.

Seattle has played: Washington, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cardinals, Bengals.

Washington has some good interior/edge guys in Allen and Payne, so Seattle said, let’s game plan for these front four guys, cause Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne are no joke, so tight end help is needed.

Baltimore, that’s a gimme, tight end help is needed against this defensive line.

Cleveland, yeah, you better provide help against Myles Garrett and co.

Cardinals, this game, you can totally use tight ends for catching passes as the Cardinals linebacker coverage and pass rush can be tried.

Bengals, edge, is a 50/50 game for tight ends.

Unless, you have a sure fire elite tight end, capable to running routes, has decent speed, it may be very difficult to work them into the game plan as seeing targets and shares. Seattle still wants to run the ball enough, and when they pass, Lockett and DK will get their share and it’s often times going to be more targets than the tight end corps.

You are still accounting for a pass rush and then you are counting target share for your top receivers, tight ends (Dissly, Fant, Parkinson) are lucky to share 10 targets a game with this offensive scheme.

 

[LeveeBreak]

I think it’s very difficult to always utilize your tight ends every game.

Some teams just don’t have the favorable scheme and personnel to defend tight ends, like, Seattle’s defense doesn’t.

Seattle, can’t just always include tight ends into their game plans because the defense is solid with tight end coverage, especially, teams that have good linebacker coverage and a capable pass rush.

Seattle has what lost some offensive starters on the line since the Detroit game? It’s just recently Cross came back and when Cross was out Seattle employs additional blockers and chip edge defenders with tight ends.

Seattle has played: Washington, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cardinals, Bengals.

Washington has some good interior/edge guys in Allen and Payne, so Seattle said, let’s game plan for these front four guys, cause Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne are no joke, so tight end help is needed.

Baltimore, that’s a gimme, tight end help is needed against this defensive line.

Cleveland, yeah, you better provide help against Myles Garrett and co.

Cardinals, this game, you can totally use tight ends for catching passes as the Cardinals linebacker coverage and pass rush can be tried.

Bengals, edge, is a 50/50 game for tight ends.

Unless, you have a sure fire elite tight end, capable to running routes, has decent speed, it may be very difficult to work them into the game plan as seeing targets and shares. Seattle still wants to run the ball enough, and when they pass, Lockett and DK will get their share and it’s often times going to be more targets than the tight end corps.

You are still accounting for a pass rush and then you are counting target share for your top receivers, tight ends (Dissly, Fant, Parkinson) are lucky to share 10 targets a game with this offensive scheme.

So you are saying Pete can and will use TE's. Confused on your 1st to 2nd post points, but whatever. The TE sets used in the past 4 games have not dictated keeping them in for blocking all the time. You wrote a lot to not answer why we haven't utilized them effectively the entire season when they have been highly productive in games they have focus.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

So you are saying Pete can and will use TE's. Confused on your 1st to 2nd post points, but whatever. The TE sets used in the past 4 games have not dictated keeping them in for blocking all the time. You wrote a lot to not answer why we haven't utilized them effectively the entire season when they have been highly productive in games they have focus.

I mean, I wrote Seattle hasn’t used the tight ends a lot due to helping chipping and blocking the pass rush. You know what else Seattle likes to do? Attempting to run the ball. The tight ends are also used to run block as well. It doesn’t mean they are underutilized. They are actually utilized heavily, just not, catching the ball all the time.

If you also want to debate, you can look at down and distance as well, and what routes are best for defeating coverage setups from defenses.

Would you rather throw an 8 yard pass to a flats on third downs when defenders are in nickel cover 3, or are you taking your chances with Lockett running a double move post route?

When is it more favorable to win the down and distance matchup?

I don’t think Seattle underutilizes tight ends, their assignment just differs from being primary catchers of the balls.

Seattle has Lockett, DK, JSN, and check downs with Charbonnet on third downs, and Lockett is a lot of times the first read on third downs, if you go throw these reads, and especially on third when you know the rush is coming, tight ends aren’t a third down option most of the time.

If anything Seattle throws to tight ends second downs cause after they run for 4 yards at least on first down, the route three is more available to run a quick drag or a seam or stop route with your tight ends on this down.

It’s the matchups that really determine how much tight ends are utilized and against what second and third level defenders.

Down and distance is extremely important.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don’t think Seattle underutilizes tight ends, their assignment just differs from being primary catchers of the balls.

I think they've gone away from their two and three TE sets more this year with drafting JSN.

Three WR sets means only one TE usually. So Waldron has most definitely struggled with finding a balance between getting JSN involved while still calling what's worked with great success for the Hawks offense, multiple TE sets.

I read after the Ravens beat down that we ran two TE sets almost 50% of the time last year. This year so far (before the Commanders game)? less than 30%.

Shiny new draft picks are great, but only if you can mesh them into your offense successfully without disrupting what's been working.

 

[renofox]

TE underutilized in what regard?

With this offense, the TEs are primarily, first and foremost, blockers. They are not and will never be primary receivers. Carroll, uses his tight ends to aid in assisting blocking up front, always has been and always will do so.

Even when they get the ball on occasions, tight ends are not the first or even third reads.

Tight ends for Seattle are mainly blockers. And with Carroll, that’s not going to change.

You are correct that PC sees TEs as mainly blockers. That is why all 3 TEs are functional blockers, unlike most all NFL teams who have TEs that are actually receivers.

But take a look at the stats:

Stat lines for TEs:
LAR 3/4 25y 13p
DET 9/10 132y 37p
CAR 7/9 75y 37p
NYG 2/3 63y 24p
CIN 5/7 37y 13p
ARI 3/3 51y 20p
CLE 2/3 32y 24p
BAL 1/3 6y 3p
WAS 5/6 31y 29p

Looks to me like there's a huge correlation between TE targets and points scored.

If you care to do an analysis, you will find an even stronger correlation between 12/13 personnel usage and scoring. Every single time the Seahawks have used 12/13 personnel a high percentage of snaps, they have had good offensive production and won the game.

The only games we've seen lots of 12/13 was DET and CAR (as a response to losing the tackles against LAR) and then against WAS (after our O-line being mauled by BAL). If you notice, those were the three highest scoring games by offense this season. Those three are also all in the top-4 for TE targets.

The most frustrating part? We pay all this money and have a great trio of TEs, then we don't bother using them when they are our most powerful offensive weapon. They get almost no redzone targets, and have 0TDs even when our redzone struggles are almost legendary.

Why PC and Waldron use their personnel this way is baffling.

 

[LeveeBreak]

You are correct that PC sees TEs as mainly blockers. That is why all 3 TEs are functional blockers, unlike most all NFL teams who have TEs that are actually receivers.

But take a look at the stats:

Stat lines for TEs:
LAR 3/4 25y 13p
DET 9/10 132y 37p
CAR 7/9 75y 37p
NYG 2/3 63y 24p
CIN 5/7 37y 13p
ARI 3/3 51y 20p
CLE 2/3 32y 24p
BAL 1/3 6y 3p
WAS 5/6 31y 29p

Looks to me like there's a huge correlation between TE targets and points scored.

If you care to do an analysis, you will find an even stronger correlation between 12/13 personnel usage and scoring. Every single time the Seahawks have used 12/13 personnel a high percentage of snaps, they have had good offensive production and won the game.

The only games we've seen lots of 12/13 was DET and CAR (as a response to losing the tackles against LAR) and then against WAS (after our O-line being mauled by BAL). If you notice, those were the three highest scoring games by offense this season. Those three are also all in the top-4 for TE targets.

The most frustrating part? We pay all this money and have a great trio of TEs, then we don't bother using them when they are our most powerful offensive weapon. They get almost no redzone targets, and have 0TDs even when our redzone struggles are almost legendary.

Why PC and Waldron use their personnel this way is baffling.

this^^^^^

 

[LeveeBreak]

I mean, I wrote Seattle hasn’t used the tight ends a lot due to helping chipping and blocking the pass rush. You know what else Seattle likes to do? Attempting to run the ball. The tight ends are also used to run block as well. It doesn’t mean they are underutilized. They are actually utilized heavily, just not, catching the ball all the time.

If you also want to debate, you can look at down and distance as well, and what routes are best for defeating coverage setups from defenses.

Would you rather throw an 8 yard pass to a flats on third downs when defenders are in nickel cover 3, or are you taking your chances with Lockett running a double move post route?

When is it more favorable to win the down and distance matchup?

I don’t think Seattle underutilizes tight ends, their assignment just differs from being primary catchers of the balls.

Seattle has Lockett, DK, JSN, and check downs with Charbonnet on third downs, and Lockett is a lot of times the first read on third downs, if you go throw these reads, and especially on third when you know the rush is coming, tight ends aren’t a third down option most of the time.

If anything Seattle throws to tight ends second downs cause after they run for 4 yards at least on first down, the route three is more available to run a quick drag or a seam or stop route with your tight ends on this down.

It’s the matchups that really determine how much tight ends are utilized and against what second and third level defenders.

Down and distance is extremely important.

The point has been made by many more than I over and over again with stats upon stats. My back of napkin calcs say they have >75% catch rate and I would bet the best YAC of all our skill groups. Honestly, I don't want to debate because it's not really debateable. Trying to make the point and STFU.

 

[OneLofaTatupu]

I read that Wilson often went off script in his 4th quarter comebacks, do you think Geno did the same? or Geno was executing all the plays sent to him in the 4th quarter?

Maybe Waldron did, thus playing to Genos strengths as any rational coach should do.