Peter King on Matt Flynn

kearly · Feb 25, 2013

FlyingGreg":1sz1dkxn said:
Yes. And that's why those teams would be screwed if those guys get hurt. And none of them had a Russell Wilson to deal with, so the comparison is moot. I don't want us to be in that position.

And yet, they do it anyway. QB injuries are rare. And also, I have no idea what you mean with regards to RW, but the comparison is not moot. It is completely relevant. Peyton Manning is 1 hit away from retirement, and his backup was a raw rookie who didn't even have a lot of college experience. The fact is, that hit never came, and some QBs are more injury averse than others for various reasons.

Wilson looks like a guy that could still be playing at 40. He just knows how to take a hit, and he knows how to protect his body better than any QB I've ever seen.

I'd like us to have a good backup too. But $15.5 million over 2 years isn't worth it. It would be like paying $500 a month for auto insurance. Seattle won't do that, and Flynn knows that his chance to be a starter is now, not two years from now when his Seahawks contract is up. He won't restructure to be a backup with no hope of winning the job.

Kyle Orton is probably as good, or maybe better, of a backup than Flynn (when factoring experience) and look at the lack of interest he generated when he hit the open market in the middle of the 2011 season. You can always find veteran backups, and they don't have to cost you $15.5 million over two seasons.

theENGLISHseahawk · Feb 25, 2013

AgentDib":1h40c69n said:
How many of Wilson's snaps would you want to give this rookie in training camp?

As many as Kirk Cousins had last summer.

He came on in relief and led a come-from-behind victory against the eventual Super Bowl Champions.

General Manager · Feb 25, 2013

If they release him there still on the hook for 3million according to espn that won't happen. He will be traded or he will be on the team next year.

FlyingGreg · Feb 25, 2013

kearly":24cmrkwb said:
FlyingGreg":24cmrkwb said:

Yes. And that's why those teams would be screwed if those guys get hurt. And none of them had a Russell Wilson to deal with, so the comparison is moot. I don't want us to be in that position.

Click to expand...

And yet, they do it anyway. QB injuries are rare. And also, I have no idea what you mean with regards to RW, but the comparison is not moot. It is completely relevant. Peyton Manning is 1 hit away from retirement, and his backup was a raw rookie who didn't even have a lot of college experience. The fact is, that hit never came, and some QBs are more injury averse than others for various reasons.

Wilson looks like a guy that could still be playing at 40. He just knows how to take a hit, and he knows how to protect his body better than any QB I've ever seen.

I'd like us to have a good backup too. But $15.5 million over 2 years isn't worth it. It would be like paying $500 a month for auto insurance. Seattle won't do that, and Flynn knows that his chance to be a starter is now, not two years from now when his Seahawks contract is up. He won't restructure to be a backup with no hope of winning the job.

Kyle Orton is probably as good, or maybe better, of a backup than Flynn (when factoring experience) and look at the lack of interest he generated when he hit the open market in the middle of the 2011 season. You can always find veteran backups, and they don't have to cost you $15.5 million over two seasons.

My point about Wilson was he did not come in entrenched as starters like the guys you listed were. He was the upset. He wasn't expected to do what he did. The whole contract scenario with Flynn is inverted because of that. It wasn't "supposed" to be this way. And in the context of the entirety of the position, considering the production we got out of it we still aren't remotely close to paying premium with Wilson making peanuts. It doesn't really matter what Flynn is making, as both Pete and John have said many times. I don't think they are being deceitful.

We'll just agree to disagree. The front office has made it clear that the cap will not be a factor in what happens with Flynn, and I believe them. I know it's conspiracy season and misinformation reigns supreme, but on this one I still don't buy they will outright release him.

theENGLISHseahawk · Feb 26, 2013

General Manager":39tj3w2r said:
If they release him there still on the hook for 3million according to espn that won't happen. He will be traded or he will be on the team next year.

We've been over this a few times now.

$1.25m direct saving on the cap in 2013, $2m saving on the 2014 cap if he's cut plus an extra $5.25m in cash.

sc85sis · Feb 26, 2013

theENGLISHseahawk":3g6sjuv4 said:
AgentDib":3g6sjuv4 said:

How many of Wilson's snaps would you want to give this rookie in training camp?

Click to expand...

As many as Kirk Cousins had last summer.

He came on in relief and led a come-from-behind victory against the eventual Super Bowl Champions.

I wouldn't necessarily use Cousins as an example simply because he too is a bit of an outlier. He's basically a less athletic Russell Wilson--a very smart, high-character guy who is a born leader and who will outwork most other guys. If he had better physical tools, he'd have been drafted much higher.

[youtube]tp15N9BbYgY[/youtube]

loafoftatupu · Feb 26, 2013

PC was asked by Clayton in Indy (Friday night) about Flynn. PC said they will listen to offers, but they do not have to move him and have no issues carrying him on the team. That he is a good QB and you never know how quickly we might need him. I got the feeling that unless someone offers the Hawks something remotely worth while, that they are just going to keep him. The money isn't sick, especially when you look at the total cost of the QB crew on this roster and it's potential.

loafoftatupu · Feb 26, 2013

FlyingGreg":gy11uy6j said:
kearly":gy11uy6j said:

The front office has made it clear that the cap will not be a factor in what happens with Flynn, and I believe them. I know it's conspiracy season and misinformation reigns supreme, but on this one I still don't buy they will outright release him.

Click to expand...

Agreed, PC said he holds value as a player to Seattle, regardless of what others see in him or don't. He is not getting cut to save money when the money they are talking about isn't really that much in the Seahawks overall cap picture. It doesn't matter that he makes more than Wilson, the Seahawks are not going to adjust the contracts by releasing Flynn so they can say they have their pay structure in order of player depth. They would at least wait until there was an established backup QB on the team, otherwise they just look foolish. Also, there is the chance that Flynn's value increases as late as October of this season.

themunn · Feb 26, 2013

kearly":1vmzse43 said:
FlyingGreg":1vmzse43 said:

Yes. And that's why those teams would be screwed if those guys get hurt. And none of them had a Russell Wilson to deal with, so the comparison is moot. I don't want us to be in that position.

Click to expand...

And yet, they do it anyway. QB injuries are rare. And also, I have no idea what you mean with regards to RW, but the comparison is not moot. It is completely relevant. Peyton Manning is 1 hit away from retirement, and his backup was a raw rookie who didn't even have a lot of college experience. The fact is, that hit never came, and some QBs are more injury averse than others for various reasons.

Wilson looks like a guy that could still be playing at 40. He just knows how to take a hit, and he knows how to protect his body better than any QB I've ever seen.

I'd like us to have a good backup too. But $15.5 million over 2 years isn't worth it. It would be like paying $500 a month for auto insurance. Seattle won't do that, and Flynn knows that his chance to be a starter is now, not two years from now when his Seahawks contract is up. He won't restructure to be a backup with no hope of winning the job.

Kyle Orton is probably as good, or maybe better, of a backup than Flynn (when factoring experience) and look at the lack of interest he generated when he hit the open market in the middle of the 2011 season. You can always find veteran backups, and they don't have to cost you $15.5 million over two seasons.

Disagreed, Kyle Orton was benched for Tim Tebow after leading the Broncos to a what, 1-6 start? (I can't remember off the top of my head).
Unknown quantities will always fetch higher value than proven failures.

FlyingGreg · Feb 26, 2013

loafoftatupu":kzgt6zlq said:
FlyingGreg":kzgt6zlq said:

kearly":kzgt6zlq said:

The front office has made it clear that the cap will not be a factor in what happens with Flynn, and I believe them. I know it's conspiracy season and misinformation reigns supreme, but on this one I still don't buy they will outright release him.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Agreed, PC said he holds value as a player to Seattle, regardless of what others see in him or don't. He is not getting cut to save money when the money they are talking about isn't really that much in the Seahawks overall cap picture. It doesn't matter that he makes more than Wilson, the Seahawks are not going to adjust the contracts by releasing Flynn so they can say they have their pay structure in order of player depth. They would at least wait until there was an established backup QB on the team, otherwise they just look foolish. Also, there is the chance that Flynn's value increases as late as October of this season.

Precisely.

mikeak · Feb 26, 2013

theENGLISHseahawk":60upzw8z said:
General Manager":60upzw8z said:

If they release him there still on the hook for 3million according to espn that won't happen. He will be traded or he will be on the team next year.

Click to expand...

We've been over this a few times now.

$1.25m direct saving on the cap in 2013, $2m saving on the 2014 cap if he's cut plus an extra $5.25m in cash.

Are these direct savings after accounting for the $1+ million you are spending on the backup? These numbers aren't seriously the number after just cutting Flynn right since then it would be a no-brainer not to cut him

Sgt. Largent · Feb 26, 2013

loafoftatupu":3guwnn7t said:
Agreed, PC said he holds value as a player to Seattle, regardless of what others see in him or don't. He is not getting cut to save money when the money they are talking about isn't really that much in the Seahawks overall cap picture. It doesn't matter that he makes more than Wilson, the Seahawks are not going to adjust the contracts by releasing Flynn so they can say they have their pay structure in order of player depth. They would at least wait until there was an established backup QB on the team, otherwise they just look foolish. Also, there is the chance that Flynn's value increases as late as October of this season.

I don't think anyone is saying that we'd cut Flynn "just to save money."

What Pete's saying is that if the stars align perfectly where;

1. Another team offers an appropriate draft pick
2. We find a competent backup in the draft
3. We can sign a cheaper backup where the drop between new backup and Flynn isn't that big

Personally I'd say Flynn is cut if #2 or #3 happens......or both. Sign a cheaper backup and find a QB in later rounds to develop.

But no there's not an urgency to get rid of Flynn because of our unique situation where Flynn is making lower end starter money, and Wilson is making low end backup money. Nothing HAS to be done.

The Outfield · Feb 26, 2013

mikeak":1n3z1xf4 said:
theENGLISHseahawk":1n3z1xf4 said:

General Manager":1n3z1xf4 said:

If they release him there still on the hook for 3million according to espn that won't happen. He will be traded or he will be on the team next year.

Click to expand...

We've been over this a few times now.

$1.25m direct saving on the cap in 2013, $2m saving on the 2014 cap if he's cut plus an extra $5.25m in cash.

Click to expand...

Are these direct savings after accounting for the $1+ million you are spending on the backup? These numbers aren't seriously the number after just cutting Flynn right since then it would be a no-brainer not to cut him

Exactly what I was thinking.

dsquid · Feb 26, 2013

Not sure why more people don't propose the concept of a conditional draft pick. All the pundits are like "He's worth nothing more than a 4th or 5th". The way these
things get done is almost always conditional on play time/quality of play.

I expect the same thing to happen here.

pehawk · Feb 26, 2013

English = Ahab
Matt Flynn's LACK of trade value = (bearded) White Whale

canfan · Feb 26, 2013

Hawkstorian":1liogoh7 said:
Much of Flynn's 2013 salary is guaranteed, so cutting him doesn't save as much $$ as people think ... and combined with the fact that he's a reliable backup who should be able to win us a game or 2 if needed ... I really think he'll be a Seahawk this season. After this year, his salary goes up and it's a lot less likely we would keep him.

My guess -- they'll redo his deal, cut his salary by a $2M or so, an waive the last year so he'll be a free agency in 2014. Call it the Hill/Trufant plan.

The way I heard it, they can only save $1.25 M of his salary if they release him. If that is true, then the question becomes, who out there can the Hawks bring in who is as good as Flynn and will cost them less than $1.25 M? If they can't trade him, I believe they will keep him as the backup for one more year. That does not exclude them from drafting a developmental QB in the later rounds.

seahawksTopGear · Feb 26, 2013

Here are some facts

www.fieldgulls.com/seahawks-analysis/20 ... te-carroll

In cap money (which is the only thing the seahawks need to care about right now)

Keeping Matt for 2013 costs 9m (7m cap 2013 + 2m dead money in 2014)

Trading Matt costs 4m + backup qb cost.

We can easily afford 5m cap in next two years. Can we afford a backup qb?

A backup qb is going to cost a relatively high draft pick (a fourth? Fifth?) Probably more than what we will get for Matt. Then you have to pay him 0.5m and hope he doesn't need to win a game for you, let alone finish the season.

So what do you think. Save 4.5m cap and give up a productive pick or keep Matt?

SeaTown81 · Feb 26, 2013

I really just do not understand the blind faith some people continue to have in Flynn. A dude that's proven less than Kevin Kolb did before his big break. I'm sorry if I appear biased on Matt Flynn. But I have NEVER been able to get over the fact that most of the people I've read on this site & heard on the radio champion him, were the same people that led the Charlie Whitehurst brigade. That's not Flynn's fault at all. But I can't get past it.

General Manager · Feb 26, 2013

Numbers aside if he's not traded they will retain the rights to him next year, they won't let him walk so any other team in the NFL can pick him up .

SeaTown81 · Feb 26, 2013

General Manager":354t97r5 said:
Numbers aside if he's not traded they will retain the rights to him next year, they won't let him walk so any other team in the NFL can pick him up .

I don't think that's true at all. The reason they don't release him if they can't find a trade, is that the cap hit makes it not worth it. He almost counts as much towards the cap released as he does on the roster. And with that in mind, you keep the guy as a solid backup. To release him and still take his cap hit, you'd need to find a backup at a very low rate to even stay at the same level. In that case, you keep Flynn. And it has nothing to do with other teams. If anything, I think the Hawks would like to give Matt a chance elsewhere if they could. But not if it doesn't make sense to their cap and roster.

Peter King on Matt Flynn

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