The bad 11. All 22 look at the run fails.

A lot of blame has been placed on Wagner this week, I wanted to look closer at the bad plays.

Tampa had 38 run plays. of those, 12 went for more than 5 yards. One of those was a QB scramble.

The other 11 went for 132 yards. What broke down on those 11 plays?

1QTR
:58 Tampa targets a left side of Irvin, Avril, and Hill. Hill got moved almost ten yards, Wagner held his gap just fine, but got caught up in the wash when the play went wide left. Not on Wagner, this breakdown when Irvin got owned by the tight end and Avril got walked out of contain. Gain 21
:26 The very next play it was Wagner and the RB one on one in the gap, Wagner got juked and whiffed. Gap sound, bad tackle. Wagner's whiff costs 6 yards. Gain 8
2QTR
13:32 Trap play. Wright gets blocked by a guard, and Wagner makes the trap worse by sliding to cover for Irvin who was getting owned on the edge. Definitely Wagner loses assignment trying to cover for Irvin. Gain 9

8:57 Quinn calls a Wagner blitz, which worked once already. It fails, Wright gets blocked, but definitely not on Wagner. Gain 8
7:50 Wham play. McDaniel penetrates the backfield a little too easy, the pulling guard cleans his clock. Wagner held his gap fine, and in fact this play would have been killed if Wright hadn't been held badly.gain 11

3QTR
14:23 Straight up power block, center takes Mebane, LT takes Red, and 54 needs to get into the gap and take on the guard at the point of attack. He hesitates, the guard gets out onto him, gain 9.

13:39 Well defended, this is the play where McDaniel throws the RB forward for a gain of 6.

12:13 WR end around. A lot of motion by Tampa has seattle swap Irvin and Avril, Avril goes to set the edge and plays right into the TE, who seals him off. As bad as Avril plays it, if Tampa doesn't get away with a 2nd pretty obvious hold on Wright this play is killed near the line. Gain 14

11:31 Another Wham play, this time it's Bennett who penetrates the backfield too easy and gets smacked by the pulling guard. At the same time, McDonald gets surprised by the trapping center, and the guard he was across from is the guy who pulls and hits Bennett. Wagner slides right to stop the cutback lane, but his gap is the one they go through. If he had stayed, the running back had a cutback lane, but this one has to be on Wagner. Gain 18

4:22 I formation from Tampa, Mebane is doubled, the guard who doubled him peels off and gets to Wagner. The fullback hits the hole and Wright takes him on. Its a well executed play by Tampa, hard to assign fault, although once again Avril gets run blocked way too easy. Gain 17

4QTR
14:13 This is one on Wagner. Rather than take on a blocker, he tries to go around, and leaves his gap to do so. Wagner is visibly frustrated by now. Gain 11.


There was plenty of blame to go around vs Tampa. Irvin can be blocked by pretty much any tight end, Avril is pretty easy to push around on the edge, McDonald got abused a few times, Bennett and McDaniel were trying so hard to get to the QB that they didn't see pulling guards trying to earhole them, and on the handful of traps Tampa ran, Wright and Wagner let the guards/center get on them. Wagner absolutely did leave his gap a few times, but seemed to be doing so in response to the players in front of him getting out of position.

Good analysis. I am wondering why Avril is getting so many snaps on run down situations. I'm guessing Clemons knee just isn't quite right yet to handle the physicality of defending the run. In any case, I read somewhere that Avril is one of the worst ends in the league at defending the run. Why not try putting Bennett at LEO on run downs?

Wagner is definitely getting manhandled by linemen more than a guy of his 'caliber' should. He needs to shed his blocks better and be more aggressive hitting the gaps IMO. I hope we see more of Malcom Smith at WILL and KJ in the middle this week....

kmedic":33mqr86j said:

Good analysis. I am wondering why Avril is getting so many snaps on run down situations. I'm guessing Clemons knee just isn't quite right yet to handle the physicality of defending the run. In any case, I read somewhere that Avril is one of the worst ends in the league at defending the run. Why not try putting Bennett at LEO on run downs?

Wagner is definitely getting manhandled by linemen more than a guy of his 'caliber' should. He needs to shed his blocks better and be more aggressive hitting the gaps IMO. I hope we see more of Malcom Smith at WILL and KJ in the middle this week....

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Tampa was not afraid to run from 2nd and long. Not all, but part of the reason Avril got exposed.

So it wasn't exclusively Wagner's fault as its been asserted to be around here?

HawksSoc":1i9ngoc6 said:

So it wasn't exclusively Wagner's fault as its been asserted to be around here?

Click to expand...

Not even close.

Scottemojo":2xd40765 said:

HawksSoc":2xd40765 said:

So it wasn't exclusively Wagner's fault as its been asserted to be around here?

Click to expand...

Not even close.

Click to expand...

That's good to know, Wags was definitely getting way too much flack on here. Great research Scott, smite the drama llama's with your knowledge! :thirishdrinkers:

I also want to add that despite the record, Tampa's line had some really good play.

I also feel like our staff/team got a little fooled by the fact that Glennon averaged 45 passes a game the last 4 games.

Scottemojo":hxm0jir9 said:

I also want to add that despite the record, Tampa's line had some really good play.

I also feel like our staff/team got a little fooled by the fact that Glennon averaged 45 passes a game the last 4 games.

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Agreed. Gach duine tóg go bog é!

I wonder whom on ATL's D-line is a poor run defender and might be worth running at on 2nd and long.

...nah, Bevell doesn't like to run.

MontanaHawk05":2n0n153p said:

I wonder whom on ATL's D-line is a poor run defender and might be worth running at on 2nd and long.

...nah, Bevell doesn't like to run.

Click to expand...

Bevell loves to run. Just not at toe goal line.

Too soon?

I hate you.

But you knew that.

Been sayin all week how good TB's O-Line played, and after rewatching 3 times, it still looks the same. They OWNED us up front.

I was getting infuriated watching Bennett on the sidelines while Avril was in on 1st down.

Can someone explain to why it shouldn't be exactly the opposite of that?

Scottemojo":22t507ax said:

HawksSoc":22t507ax said:

So it wasn't exclusively Wagner's fault as its been asserted to be around here?

Click to expand...

Not even close.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear it. I love me some BWagz.

I've been saying roughly the same thing for some time. Wags was definitely guilty of guessing a few times, but the play around him was pretty bad. There is an article on field gulls that literally targets him and even with video evidence the author gets some things wrong simply because of intent.

Lets revisit.



Wags is on record last week saying we had a lot of guys over pursuing. This is clearly what he's thinking. If McDonald is replaced by Mebane and is left with only the center on him that's a win. With McDonald it's not. McDaniel is doubled and pushed back 4 yards into Wagner's lap. Wags sees the runner heading for the cutback weakside as he's able to see him around the 2 OL and McDaniel and while weakside pursuit is there they're also not attacking. Wagner looks to defend the cutback and at the same time McDaniel spins back. Hole is open for many reasons for many players. Wagner, in particular, is guilty of trying to cover too much and vacates his gap.



The author notes Wagner right away, who is actually on the weakside, taking a bad angle. Wagner undercuts blocks often and most of the time he'll get that play. The author also notes Wright taking on the FB, which isn't even a FB. Wright just sort of wildly throws a shoulder at him. Clem is sealed out on a single block by a TE. Seems like he's not even trying to get off the block and merely locks up and concedes ground. Red normally doesn't get sealed this easily being single blocked, but he does. All 3 players at the POA on that edge failed badly, but the author has intent here. Singles out Wagner for taking a bad angle where this very act of undercutting the blocker works most of the time because at least someone to that side is able to slow down the running just enough for him to make the play from the backside. In this case, the hole is WIDE and Casey never breaks stride. The author really shows his intent here.



In this gif the author states that Wagner actually does the right thing and he does. This time the author singles out Irvin. Irvin could have played it better. He was losing ground and chose a side to play. Any RB beats that. Even if Wright isn't slowed up by the gaurd he's not fast enough to get to Stacy at the sideline. The author misses a really big thing in this play and it's what went wrong from the get go. Clem takes a hard inside move leaving a huge hole where the Rams actually wanted to go. We don't know if it was called that he take that hard inside move or if he was gambling trying to get a safety on an inside run or quick sack before the QB could get the ball off. Could have been called. Dunno....



This one went wrong with KJ and Avril at the edge. Hill didn't help. He's not supposed to be 4 yards downfield and going the wrong way into Wagner as he's flowing to the sideline. Hill shouldn't even be in his path. Earl will get trucked a couple times a season. Hopefully he's hit his quota for the year.



Now this one is where it gets really interesting. This play is directly related to a previous play. If you look at the lineup, Wagner owns the gap between the T and the G. He's staying home here. Not trying to do too much and let the defense work how it's supposed to. Everyone has their gap, right? The author doesn't get this notion or just doesn't occur to him. Wagner thinks about jumping over to the other gap, but gets back in his. The author states that Wagner guessed, which isn't true. If he leaves his gap the RB has a very big hole there. Wagner knew that already. You'd think the author would too, but no. McDonald loses. McDaniel, trying to overcompensate for his 6'7 frame, shoots out low with leverage only to find little resistance and nearly falls down taking himself out of the play. KJ steps up to him the tackle, which really isn't his gap, but Avril shoots upfield like he's going for a sack off the edge. Literally useless at that point because there is no backside run defense. KJ gets sealed and even held a bit, but where we really fail here is the McDs. You may notice the lack of Mebane. Even the mighty Bane loses a battle here and there, but McDonald is not a nose or 1 tech. We knew that last year when we had run defense troubles. McDaniel just took himself out of the play. If your DTs fail on an inside run your run defense fails 95 to 99 percent of the time.



Gets even more interesting here. Due to the previous play Wagner actually does shoot inside here. Again the RB takes the vacated area left by Wagner. Big hole. Wagner is trying to do too much. He can't win because the guys in front of him aren't. He's resorted to shooting a gap again based on the alignment he's seeing. McDonald is in yet again and again is ineffective. Clem is reading, but can't close off that angle. Too fast. KJ literally runs the wrong way out towards the TE. Almost makes me wonder if we're running slants here (ie a called strong side), but probably not. Wagner didn't stay home. He's overplaying. However, if he doesn't the RB has that same lane from the last play because KJ runs out wide for some reason and the author and everyone else would accuse him of a wrong read. Bobby can't win for losing, but technically he overplayed and it was his fault this time. We did try Bennett at 3 tech this time. Fires into the backfield off balance because he's expecting someone there. Gets flanked by a pulling gaurd and he's down. At this poing we're showing a weakness against that inside trap because we don't have a DT winning on the inside.



The author goes on about patience from the LBs, which is true. However, you see the Bucs double both McDaneil and Bane (I think it's Bane anyway) and don't win. That's 4 OL on 2 DL and the LOS remains at it's original ball spot. Our LBs are free and this is not that inside trap that we're having trouble with. Also, if that is Bane and not McDonald then everything changes. As Pete previously said two weeks ago, "He's the pillar of all that."

cool analysis Vin

More than shedding blocks, Wags was taking some bad angles and running himself out of a few plays. At least that's what I noticed. It's correctable, as is a lot of the assignment mistakes that seemed to happen. I also want to add that setting the edge is a mentality. There is no reason why Avril and Irvin can't do it. Squeezing the hole makes like easier for the LBs and backside DL pursuit. This is what I want to see moving forward.

Appreciate the OP effort.

I think the 2013 defensive line came up short on two gap capable linemen ... once again. Mebane and Bryant are it on the active roster ..... there is nobody else. Jesse Williams was a miss for 2013 and neither of the two practice squad participants qualify. I my eyes, without so called 3-4 personal on the field, the defense is reduced to a simple gap defense staffed by one gap personal.

Its easy for someone of FGs to say Wagner took a bad angle if that was his gap.He may have played that exactly like he was coached.
Great write up by the OP much appreciated

I know some here are trying to defend Wagner and spread the blame around for the poor run defense, which is certainly valid, but you can't deny he's probably making the most mistakes of any of the front 7 guys in terms of gap control and shedding blocks in particular. But we haven't yet evaluated his entire body of work, which should include his coverage skills. I personally think Bobby is awful in coverage. If I were an offensive coordinator I would be licking my chops to scheme a one on one match up with Wagner on pass plays as much as I could. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a TE, WR, or even fullback, Bobby Wagner repeatedly gets burned. He might get lucky by just sitting in a zone and picking off a bad pass but when have you seen him win a one on one battle, ie. knocking the ball away? I always think of Brian Urlacher as the gold standard all around MLB. A beast against the run but also outstanding in coverage in that Tampa 2 defense where having good coverage skills is critical. Bobby Wagner is cannot even be mentioned in the same breath as Urlacher IMO.