Evaluation of the Hawks from a Pats fan

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

Thanks for the posters who critiqued the Pats in my earlier thread over on the NFL board. Now to return the favor, I'll give a few opinions about the Hawks based on this 1 game.

Offense:
- Wilson is a monster, and in my opinion, the most dominant player on Seattle by far. While his running and elusiveness didn't kill NE, it was a constant threat and on a couple of plays he did show that he can't be trapped 1 on 1 no matter who the defender is. But it's his big play ability with down the field throws that's off the charts. Not only accurate but extremely catchable balls, 40 yards away. Amazing. The team probably needs to complement that with a more sophisticated short passing attack so that Wilson can get more completions under his belt especially in the early going.

- Kearse is a very dangerous player, I think NE would have done better to try Revis on him rather than Baldwin. You've also got a lot of depth and size at WR, the 2nd stringers were killing us.

- No sign of a TE, was Willson hurt or do they just not throw there?

- Beast is something, but wasn't a huge factor in this game except for his great 31 yard route & catch on the final drive. I kind of knew we'd be able to scheme him under control on the run, and I'd say we did. He got 102 yards but didn't break any long ones and never got a real rhythm going. We also got him down on the 1 with a full head of steam when it mattered most (somehow).

- your OL looked OK in protection but didn't dominate in the run game. Compared to the rest of your team, I think it's the unit most in need of an upgrade.

Defense:
- Bennett is as good a rusher as you'll ever see, we couldn't handle him. The rest of the DL was good containing the run but nobody else got any pressure on Brady. Even if Avril had played the 4th qtr, he wasn't doing much anyway against Vollmer, a great RT.

- Wagner is as advertised, would love to have him. But Irvin didn't impact the game and your other LB couldn't stay with Gronk at all. Overall your front 7 played pretty well, very stingy vs. the run.

- at DB, Sherman even with an injury is a great athlete and corner, and I'm even starting to like his personality (a little bit). Maxwell was the wrong guy against Amendola or Edelman, constantly getting spun around. The safeties in all honesty were not dominant, but both had injuries so hard to say if that made a big diff. As a group the DB's were outplayed by Brady and NE's receivers. Lane would have helped in a game like this.

- the Seahawks defense is very good but not the "historical" super-mario D I was reading about pre-game. They got picked apart pretty good all day long except for the 3rd quarter - 5 long drives. They were not dominant by any definition.

Intangibles/coaching:
- I love Carroll as a coach and motivator, and was surprised how many times your offense was able to gash us with big plays based on matchup advantages you were able to create. But somehow they blew 2 TO's in the final drive just trying to line up, and seemed a little discombobulated at the biggest point in the game (not a fact, just my impression).

Followthelegion · Feb 6, 2015

Appreciate the post.

I didn't like leaving Wright on an island with Gronk...happened on more than one occasion.

I think the point about the safeties is a little unfair because of two factors: 1) dink and dunk passing attack which limits Earl's impact and 2) Kam playing with MCL tear, its not surprise he was limited. ET was playing with a torn labrum too, just limited him further.

The 2nd TO I don't blame on the players, everyone was assuming it was going to be reviewed before the slow mo replay was played. It being a long pass play also took time for OL to get downfield, I was happy Seattle called TO and didn't rush a play in that critical situation as clock was not rolling anyway as Kearse got out of bounds

Hyak · Feb 6, 2015

Your assessment on the defense is somewhat skewed as the DL and secondary had critical injuries that impacted them in-game. How they used Chancellor and Thomas was indicative of how banged up they were.

If the defense had been healthier, I do not believe NE scores 28.

Russ Willstrong · Feb 6, 2015

Accurate post Fifty.
Sorry if there were any angry posts I directed at you.
Enjoy your celebration and thanks for stopping by.

Barthawk · Feb 6, 2015

Before Avril injury:

6 NE drives: 2 TD (33%), 2 TO (33%), 2 punts (33%)

Brady: 22/31 (70.0%), 187 yards (6.03 YPA), 2 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 81.0

After Avril injury:

4 NE drives: 2 TD (50%), 2 punts (50%)

Brady: 15/19 (78.9%), 141 yards (7.42 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT, QB rating 132.7

Avril didn't affect the game is not accurate, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Kearse is average. He makes a big play, but his drops almost killed us against GB and the drop in the 3rd Q was huge.

lukerguy · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":2wfyg599 said:
- the Seahawks defense is very good but not the "historical" super-mario D I was reading about pre-game. They got picked apart pretty good all day long except for the 3rd quarter - 5 long drives. They were not dominant by any definition.

The Seahawks D is dominant. The Patriots are unfortunately just the best team in history to game plan. The only, only way to beat seattle's D is the way the Pats did..Quick rub routes, don't let the pass rush get to you. Stay out of 2nd/3rd and long.

Pats just executed at an all world level. It didn't hurt that Lane went out. Simon killed us.

twisted_steel2 · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":zicctp75 said:
- the Seahawks defense is very good but not the "historical" super-mario D I was reading about pre-game. They got picked apart pretty good all day long except for the 3rd quarter - 5 long drives. They were not dominant by any definition.

You saw a very tired, very injured, depleted defense and LOB.

I think we had 7 or 8 defensive lineman on IR, including Brandon Mebane, the equivalent to your Wilfork. Once Avril went down...

The LOB was a shadow of itself, Sherman(damaged ligaments in his elbow), Thomas(fully torn labrum), Chanceller(torn MCL and bone bruise), all very bang up. Once Lane went down...

Not making excuses, but if this is the first time you watched that D, you didn't see them at full strength.

Bobblehead · Feb 6, 2015

Wasn't Max that was getting spun to pieces, it was Simon.

Soon as Avril went out, the hole in the DL was incredible, Brady had just to step up and wing passess.

I read there was a lot of happiness on the Patriots bench when Avril and Lane went out.

MizzouHawkGal · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":12vdad6z said:
Thanks for the posters who critiqued the Pats in my earlier thread over on the NFL board. Now to return the favor, I'll give a few opinions about the Hawks based on this 1 game.

Offense:
- Wilson is a monster, and in my opinion, the most dominant player on Seattle by far. While his running and elusiveness didn't kill NE, it was a constant threat and on a couple of plays he did show that he can't be trapped 1 on 1 no matter who the defender is. But it's his big play ability with down the field throws that's off the charts. Not only accurate but extremely catchable balls, 40 yards away. Amazing. The team probably needs to complement that with a more sophisticated short passing attack so that Wilson can get more completions under his belt especially in the early going.

- Kearse is a very dangerous player, I think NE would have done better to try Revis on him rather than Baldwin. You've also got a lot of depth and size at WR, the 2nd stringers were killing us.

- No sign of a TE, was Willson hurt or do they just not throw there?

- Beast is something, but wasn't a huge factor in this game except for his great 31 yard route & catch on the final drive. I kind of knew we'd be able to scheme him under control on the run, and I'd say we did. He got 102 yards but didn't break any long ones and never got a real rhythm going. We also got him down on the 1 with a full head of steam when it mattered most (somehow).

- your OL looked OK in protection but didn't dominate in the run game. Compared to the rest of your team, I think it's the unit most in need of an upgrade.

Defense:
- Bennett is as good a rusher as you'll ever see, we couldn't handle him. The rest of the DL was good containing the run but nobody else got any pressure on Brady. Even if Avril had played the 4th qtr, he wasn't doing much anyway against Vollmer, a great RT.

- Wagner is as advertised, would love to have him. But Irvin didn't impact the game and your other LB couldn't stay with Gronk at all. Overall your front 7 played pretty well, very stingy vs. the run.

- at DB, Sherman's even with an injury is a great athlete and corner, and I'm even starting to like his personality (a little bit). Maxwell was the wrong guy against Amendola or Edelman, constantly getting spun around. The safeties in all honesty were not dominant, but both had injuries so hard to say if that made a big diff. As a group the DB's were outplayed by Brady and NE's receivers. Lane would have helped in a game like this.

- the Seahawks defense is very good but not the "historical" super-mario D I was reading about pre-game. They got picked apart pretty good all day long except for the 3rd quarter - 5 long drives. They were not dominant by any definition.

Intangibles/coaching:
- I love Carroll as a coach and motivator, and was surprised how many times your offense was able to gash us with big plays based on matchup advantages you were able to create. But somehow they blew 2 TO's in the final drive just trying to line up, and seemed a little discombobulated at the biggest point in the game (not a fact, just my impression).

Seems pretty spot on without accounting for context (injury to Sherman, Lane, Avril, Thomas, Mebane, Hill, and so on). Enjoy your victory maybe you'll be our opponent in Santa Clara (excuse me if I think there's a chance in hell of that happening but whatever).

Excuse me that I am bitter about the outcome and your assessment given with Lane and Avril the Patriots would have lost end of story. Even after all that it took the stupidest playcall imaginable to allow the Patriots to win the game.

Hasselbeck · Feb 6, 2015

Barthawk":3ai6o5l5 said:
Before Avril injury:

6 NE drives: 2 TD (33%), 2 TO (33%), 2 punts (33%)

Brady: 22/31 (70.0%), 187 yards (6.03 YPA), 2 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 81.0

After Avril injury:

4 NE drives: 2 TD (50%), 2 punts (50%)

Brady: 15/19 (78.9%), 141 yards (7.42 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT, QB rating 132.7

Avril didn't affect the game is not accurate, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Kearse is average. He makes a big play, but his drops almost killed us against GB and the drop in the 3rd Q was huge.

That drop turned the game completely around.

If he catches that. The Pats are done. No doubt in my mind.

That said he did redeem himself with an insane catch that was equal parts luck and great concentration.. but that drop in the 3rd completely changed the game.

mikeak · Feb 6, 2015

Tight Ends - we have used them all season but apparently it was deemed that they don't provide value in a superbowl

Yes Wilson is a monster - we know, everyone that sees him should know but somehow the pundits don't know

You are spot on with complement attack but we run a very basic offense. I think we are all salivating at the thought of a complex passing offense knowing RW can handle it. We probably will only see it if we play Madden

Seahawk Sailor · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":27jkkkmu said:
- the Seahawks defense is very good but not the "historical" super-mario D I was reading about pre-game. They got picked apart pretty good all day long except for the 3rd quarter - 5 long drives. They were not dominant by any definition.

Good assessment overall, but take into account you were watching a Legion of Boom that was entirely banged up and depleted. Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, and Richard Sherman all played the whole game with injuries requiring major, long-term recovery type surgeries. Lane out early with a fractured arm that would have made Joe Theisman wince just seeing it. Avril out midway with a concussion. So three fourths of that "historical" Super Mario defense you were reading about were essentially playing with missing limbs, plus we were missing a few key cogs in the defense which made a huge difference. What you saw was about half of their potential, and they played well enough we still should have won but for a single boneheaded play.

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

Followthelegion":3pz04kiq said:
Appreciate the post.

I didn't like leaving Wright on an island with Gronk...happened on more than one occasion.

I think the point about the safeties is a little unfair because of two factors: 1) dink and dunk passing attack which limits Earl's impact and 2) Kam playing with MCL tear, its not surprise he was limited. ET was playing with a torn labrum too, just limited him further.

The 2nd TO I don't blame on the players, everyone was assuming it was going to be reviewed before the slow mo replay was played. It being a long pass play also took time for OL to get downfield, I was happy Seattle called TO and didn't rush a play in that critical situation as clock was not rolling anyway as Kearse got out of bounds

The defensive injuries you had both before and during the game were insane. Both safeties and a CB dinged before the game, and lose another CB during the game. Two DT's lost before and a DE during. That's really an extreme situation. It's true that if Avril had finished, Brady may not have been able to step forward in the pocket the way he did in the 4th qtr. Also Thomas was not flying around, almost invisible playing with a serious injury. I think Chancellor and Sherman were not as affected by their injuries and played well.

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

Hasselbeck":2kihbue1 said:
Barthawk":2kihbue1 said:

Before Avril injury:

6 NE drives: 2 TD (33%), 2 TO (33%), 2 punts (33%)

Brady: 22/31 (70.0%), 187 yards (6.03 YPA), 2 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 81.0

After Avril injury:

4 NE drives: 2 TD (50%), 2 punts (50%)

Brady: 15/19 (78.9%), 141 yards (7.42 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT, QB rating 132.7

Avril didn't affect the game is not accurate, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Kearse is average. He makes a big play, but his drops almost killed us against GB and the drop in the 3rd Q was huge.

Click to expand...

That drop turned the game completely around.

If he catches that. The Pats are done. No doubt in my mind.

That said he did redeem himself with an insane catch that was equal parts luck and great concentration.. but that drop in the 3rd completely changed the game.

One quibble is I don't think you can call the Kearse incompletion a drop. Butler grabbed his right arm as the ball arrived and Kearse never had it as a result. I thought he dropped it at the time, but I've seen vid and still pics that clearly show a breakup. It was a huge play as you say.

Butler was the player of the game for NE, he did far more than just the INT, he was breaking up everything thrown his way. Some of us were aware of his name but he hadn't done a thing all year long, nothing that made him stand out at all. IF you asked any Pats fan before the game what his number was or whether he was a corner or a safety, none of us could have answered those questions.

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":zzns29ja said:
Followthelegion":zzns29ja said:

Appreciate the post.

I didn't like leaving Wright on an island with Gronk...happened on more than one occasion.

I think the point about the safeties is a little unfair because of two factors: 1) dink and dunk passing attack which limits Earl's impact and 2) Kam playing with MCL tear, its not surprise he was limited. ET was playing with a torn labrum too, just limited him further.

The 2nd TO I don't blame on the players, everyone was assuming it was going to be reviewed before the slow mo replay was played. It being a long pass play also took time for OL to get downfield, I was happy Seattle called TO and didn't rush a play in that critical situation as clock was not rolling anyway as Kearse got out of bounds

Click to expand...

The defensive injuries you had both before and during the game were insane. Both safeties and a CB dinged before the game, and lose another CB during the game. Two DT's lost before and a DE during. That's really an extreme situation. It's true that if Avril had finished, Brady may not have been able to step forward in the pocket the way he did in the 4th qtr. Also Thomas was not flying around, almost invisible playing with a serious injury. I think Chancellor and Sherman were not as affected by their injuries much and played well.

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

50yrpatsfan":23aq820k said:
Hasselbeck":23aq820k said:

Barthawk":23aq820k said:

Before Avril injury:

6 NE drives: 2 TD (33%), 2 TO (33%), 2 punts (33%)

Brady: 22/31 (70.0%), 187 yards (6.03 YPA), 2 TD, 2 INT, QB rating 81.0

After Avril injury:

4 NE drives: 2 TD (50%), 2 punts (50%)

Brady: 15/19 (78.9%), 141 yards (7.42 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT, QB rating 132.7

Avril didn't affect the game is not accurate, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Kearse is average. He makes a big play, but his drops almost killed us against GB and the drop in the 3rd Q was huge.

Click to expand...

That drop turned the game completely around.

If he catches that. The Pats are done. No doubt in my mind.

That said he did redeem himself with an insane catch that was equal parts luck and great concentration.. but that drop in the 3rd completely changed the game.

Click to expand...

One quibble is I don't think you can call the Kearse incompletion a drop. Butler grabbed his right arm as the ball arrived and Kearse never had it as a result. I thought he dropped it at the time, but I've seen vid and still pics that clearly show a breakup. It was a huge play as you say.

Butler was the player of the game for NE, he did far more than just the INT, he was breaking up everything thrown his way. Some of us Pats fans were aware of his name but he hadn't done a thing all year long, nothing that made him stand out at all. If you asked any of us before the game what his number was or whether he was a corner or a safety, 95% would not have known.

Uncle Si · Feb 6, 2015

Kearse dropped the ball. It's a catch, regardless of Butler's tug on the arm, that professional WR's need to make. And most do, most the time. He did not, that time.

Rest of this post was set up nicely by your earlier entry to the NFL forum.

Mick063 · Feb 6, 2015

Good analysis of the Super Bowl....not the team. In other words, you are evaluating a snapshot in time.

Jordan Hill, Branson Mebane, Jeremy Lane, Paul Richardson, and Zach Miller. A healthy Chancellor and Thomas.

Those names resolve many of your "nitpicks".

Regardless of all that, Kraft should order an extra ring with the name "Bevell" on it and drop it in the mail.

Ambrose83 · Feb 6, 2015

pretty accurate, but that D when even 80% healthy is the real deal... ask yourself this... could NE sustain that kind of loss and even be on the same field with the hawks? we both know the answer.... as depleted and seriously banged up as they were.. it still took the most idiotic play call ever for you guys to win that game. just think about that....

50yrpatsfan · Feb 6, 2015

Ambrose83":188p8411 said:
pretty accurate, but that D when even 80% healthy is the real deal... ask yourself this... could NE sustain that kind of loss and even be on the same field with the hawks? we both know the answer.... as depleted and seriously banged up as they were.. it still took the most idiotic play call ever for you guys to win that game. just think about that....

yeah I've said many times here that your injuries to the D were brutal. Pats fans know the feelings, there's been at least 4 times in the past 9 years that our full roster could have finished the job. A lotta luck is needed that way.

I will pick another nit with many of you about the final play. I feel that the Pats D earned that stop more than Seattle blew it:

- first, the Hawks had no business being down there, that catch was insane. Perfectly defended and broken up, bounces off Kearse's leg while he was looking the other way, and up into his hands after hitting about 4 other body parts. It should have been incomplete and Seattle is 3rd down from the 35 or 40 with 1:20 left.

- second, we had stuffed Lynch twice earlier in the game on 3rd and short, which was definitely playing on Carroll's mind at that point, cause if the run failed he would have had to use final TO and then be forced to pass on 3rd down.

- NE's goal line run D is stout, with three 340 lb guys we put out there - Wilfork, Siliga (who'd just recovered from a long absence), and Alan Branch (who'd just re-emerged after being picked up mid-season). Far from a gimme that Lynch scores there, and I was hoping for a run at that point. A Wilson run in space would have been a more difficult stop, but the read option was not even in the game plan on Sunday, Wilson never kept it once.

- the pass play that occurred was defeated by NE, plain and simple. No luck involved AT ALL, it was a DB dominating the play.

The Pats D outplayed you on the final drive, it was not about a Seahawks blunder. Of course when a play doesn't work in a clutch moment you criticize the play call, but NE had things covered both ways and would have defeated either play.

Evaluation of the Hawks from a Pats fan

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