Is Russell Wilson progressing?

Just so there is no mistake, I'm not implying that I am not a fan of Wilson. He has done what no other QB has done for the Hawks. He helped us win a Super Bowl.

What I'm asking from those who have a lot more knowledge of the game and position is this. Since he came into the league is he getting better?

1. I know he can run, but is this what we really want from our QB over the long run? The game is littered with running QB's who have gone down to career ending injuries because of the beating they take from defenses.

2. Is he seeing the defenses better and able to make the right read on an increasing regular basis today, compared to when he first came into the league?

3. Is he showing more willingness to make the throw into tight windows when our receivers may have a chance to make the play?

4. Can you tell that he is not playing any more timid than he was the first year in the league?

In other words, do you think he is on the right track for long term success in this league today? This is a legitimate question for me because as most fans I am not an expert in evaluating specific positions on a football team.

I hope will discuss this in a rational manner and leave personal or subject matter attacks out of this discussion. There have been too many this season because we don't seem to be the same team as last year and some take offense to any questioning of the team or specific players.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

I think that he needs to take more chances if the Hawks want to play in January. Got nothing to lose now.

Russell is kind of treading water right now. I doubt it gets better with Unger out.

I think he is handcuffed and it's hurting his progressions. He gets very few attempts to get into rhythm and he has had to deal with a three ring circus of a huddle this season. He can't trust his oline, especially not his centers. One of them launches snaps over his head and another slams them into his ankles. Never mind getting line calls correct.
We don't know what he is capable of reading because he has so little time to work with. He did step up in the pocket and sling one to Baldwin on Sunday though.

I don't understand much of the play calling or use of specific players situational. Wasn't PRich supposed to take the top off of the coverage and open up the field? How is that going to happen running curls and fade routes? The other guys have had trouble running routes and catching the ball. I believe that some of this has o do with predicable route trees. We seem too easy to defense at a time where DB's are supposed to be at a disadvantage. Tight Ends have been as big a mess as our centers have been. So while I don't think Wilson has shown the progression I had hoped to see I also feel it's about impossible to judge considering the calamity around him.

Scottemojo":1er4hg1x said:

Russell is kind of treading water right now. I doubt it gets better with Unger out.

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That's a great way to put it. He's not making good decisions and I think his indecision is causing his accuracy to suffer because he's not confident when he releases the ball. I think PC needs to turn him loose, take more chances downfield on some "All Gos."

It's like he has hit some kind of wall, similar to the rookie wall, and his body is rebelling against 2 long seasons going in to the playoffs and SuperB Owl combined with his "No time to sleep" mantra.

2 weeks ago I mentioned benching him during a game, give him some time on the side of the field and have him look at it from a different perspective. Now before you jump all over my post, coaches have done this in the past to help a player get through something that is holding them back.

look at how much better Giacomini played after getting benched. With Russell it's a completely different story, it wouldn't be benching him because he is getting stupid penalties, but instead to change things up. To take some of the load off and watch his guys from the sideline and cheer them on.

Hopefully he might see some things from the sidelines in live action that he isn't able to see as the starting QB, and recognize whatever it is that is holding him back. Because as we saw in the previous game where he was on the sidelines saying "what's going on? I don't know what I'm doing wrong!" neither Russell or Pete seems to recognize what RW needs to change to improve is game.

This is why I'd like to see a real QB coach come in to help Russell, a cerebral QB coach that can get Russell up to the next plateau, and then the next one beyond that. Someone like Jim Zorn who has actually played the position, in the NFL, in Seattle.

Hard to tell if Russell's progressing or not, because progression for a QB requires some team momentum behind it.

Not too many QB's have progressed over the years without their team ALSO getting better (or at least stay consistent).

But I will say this, I remember seeing many many threads and posts last year telling us that Russell only plays conservative because that's what Pete wants him to do, and that he could throw for 350 yards and 4 TD's if Pete and Darrell would just take the reins off.

Err, I think we know now that's not true...........Russell needs some talent around him to flourish and play well. As does every QB, so no knock on Russell.

It is a myth that "Russell doesn't go through his progressions". Russell Wilson does go through his progressions, though he doesn't trust what he sees down field. I've watched him very carefully over his last three years, and one thing you can always see is him going through his reads quickly. This is a very good trait to have in a QB, and I think this is ultimately what separates him from the RG3s, the Collin Kaepernicks, and the Cam Newtons. The problem Wilson has is that he doesn't trust his receivers, and never completely has. I have always seen a lot of hesitation from Russell when he doesn't see a large amount of separation from his receivers. He'll see a window and think about throwing the ball, and then that window is closed. You can't do that in the NFL, you need to trust your read and throw it if you have any hope of getting it to that open receiver. Every elite QB makes those kind of throws, if Wilson wants to make himself and those around him better he needs to make those throws on a regular basis.

Wilson's throwing mechanics have regressed this season. Wilson's footwork is awful, and he's throwing the ball from some funky positions. I'm seeing much more throws off the back foot, I'm also seeing passes that look like Wilson is trying to throw a fading jump shot in the NBA, I've also seen some of Tarvaris Jackson's patented jump passes. He's not going through his fundamentals, and unfortunately it's really affecting his game in a negative way.

The biggest change I've seen with Wilson is what kind of pass he throws. Wilson's throwing trajectory is much flatter this year. He's throwing bullets to his receivers on almost every play it seems. My guess is this is one of the reasons why Kearse is having bigger drop issues this year. One of Wilson's biggest attributes was his ability to throw those nice touch passes, and those nice rainbow passes that were dropped right over the shoulder of his receivers on those deep comebacks, and go routes.

Let me just say this, I do not think Wilson will ever be able to become a conventional passer in the NFL. He never will be that timing/rhythm passer that Matt Hasselbeck was, he's never going to be that guy that can manage the pocket, he's always going to be a unique player in the NFL. With his uniqueness comes the challenge of completely restructuring the offense around him. We need athletic guards/tackles that can move the pocket on bootlegs, receivers that are exceptional at coming back for the ball and improvising, and a playbook that allows Wilson to take advantage of his legs.

As a co-fan of the New York Giants all I can say is that it is exponentially more difficult to QB a passing game in this league with a sieve line in front of you and a less than stellar cast of options around you.

With Eli he has no escapability so he has to take advantage of the odd game or series where he actually gets protection.

With Wilson, rather than claiming he's regressing or at the very least treading water we should be on our hands and knees applauding the guy for having the ability and smarts to make chicken salad out of chicken **** when it comes to the passing game. His escapability and ability to make plays on the fly is what keeps the passing game above truly atrocious levels because our O-Line flat out stinks when it comes to pass blocking and our receiving corps is not one that creates separation. Wilson is the sole reason it stays afloat towards any form of success at all.

Fix the O-Line, and you'll see just how great Russell Wilson could be as passer. He has all the tools, and the brain to go with it. Height? Meaningless.

Wilson hits a wall every year. But this year, while perhaps explainable (and perhaps not) it seems he is stuck against the wall. Really stymied by this because watching him in pre-season, I was convinced he would seldom have to use his legs (!) and likely put up 300 yd games with regularity this season. Without looking at his numbers, I'd guess this to be his worst year as a pro (?).

Certainly there other factors at play in this, but if I were to honestly answer the question posed in this thread, I'd say he may have actually regressed as opposed to progressed. If that is the case, how do we put that all on Bevell? And believe me, I'd like for it to be all on Bevell.

But 3 years together without any improvement worthy of mention? I don't care one way or the other about Bevell. I am not qualified to say the guy sucks and can only consider the great success he's had in the league. There is no franchise in history (imo) that has spit out the quality QBs Green Bay has. When GB hires you to coach the position, you must be pretty damn good with QBs.

From there he took the Vikes (as OC) to the NFCG (and one play away from the SB) before ultimately winning a SB with Seattle. I'm sure many OCs wish they sucked as badly as Darrell Bevell.

With the above in mind, I find it very difficult to believe Bevell is in any way holding RW back, or slowing his progress. In fact, I believe RW is more likely holding Bevell back. And if I'm wrong...why does Bevell continue to be employed by this franchise? Not too many teams would tolerate an OC that does not cater to, then maximize the abilities of the FQB.

So if we are comfortable enough to say No, it does not appear Wilson is progressing, what would be the next question? I ask in all seriousness because with his huge contract looming, I just don't know how we should proceed. I can't see giving him 20 per and I don't know that he would stay for less. I do know I'd hate to see him in another team's jersey. But that's the only thing I know for sure.

Look at yesterday's game with denver. Remove 2 receivers and they lose and Payton looks average.

We are playing with two FA receivers.

Look at Kearse. Can't get a ball on a dime on a corner fade

Fails on 4th to take route deep enough by a yard.


Where is Miller ? Injured. Willson is below expectations and has had way too many drops same with his backup.


It's not the QB. He is limited by his receivers

He has very little to work with. Geezus, every damn week another series of questions about Wilson. He's a great f'ing Quarterback, a Championship Winning QB.

Happypuppy":3gk2ix3q said:

Look at yesterday's game with denver. Remove 2 receivers and they lose and Payton looks average.

We are playing with two FA receivers.

Look at Kearse. Can't get a ball on a dime on a corner fade

Fails on 4th to take route deep enough by a yard.


Where is Miller ? Injured. Willson is below expectations and has had way too many drops same with his backup.


It's not the QB. He is limited by his receivers

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Your points do very little for your position. And an argument could easily also be made that those receivers are "limited" by their QB.

Russ' passing numbers weren't much better when both Harvin and Miller were also on the field and the "FA" thing is way overdone. In fact, it's a joke. Baldwin has been in the NFL for 4 years and has contributed greatly to the success of this franchise. He also just signed a 3 year, 13 mil deal. "FA"?

Kearse has been in the league for 3 years and has made some huge plays for us as well. This means Russ has worked with these two every day of his professional career. How many QBs have worked with their respective receivers more in that same time period? To dismiss Baldwin and Kearse (at this stage) as mere "FAs" would be akin to saying Zorn was stuck with an 8th rounder as his primary target.

FTR, In no way am I suggesting Russ wouldn't benefit from better receivers...what QB wouldn't? I just don't believe our receivers are entirely to blame for all that ails our passing game. And IF Wilson wants 20 mil, where will we get the money to pay the better receivers you are suggesting he needs?

I don't think he's regressing, I'm pretty sure through the first 4-5 weeks his QB rating was around 103, higher than his career average.

I do think the team isn't as good as last year, more injuries, a loss of key free agents etc.

Our offensive line doesn't give him adequate time to operate and our WR's are mediocre. Also the play calls need to fit Russell Wilson, quick slants would solve a lot of the problems imo.

I'm not going to defend Bevell, who the hell calls a fade on 4th and 2?

At this point I don't think RW is worth 20 mil but I do think he's woth 16-18. He wins when he has to.

Russell Wilson needs an offensive line and receivers and a play caller that isn't about as predicable as it gets.

I hate having to defend the guy all the time but if you really think that the problem is with Wilson, I don't even know what to tell you.

I love our guys, like Kearse and Baldwin but lets not kid ourselves - our receiver depth is inexperienced, we have no #1 receiver, without Miller Willson is only so good at this point in his career when it comes to blocking and pass catching, and our offensive line has been a mess most of Wilson's career. Those things don't help when coupled with an uninspired offensive scheme.

He's fine. Outside of himself and Marshawn, there are not playmakers on offense. It's really bad actually.

Baldwin is a fine #3 WR. He has no business being a primary target.
Kearse is a fine #4 WR. He has no business being a starter
Paul Richardson is a rookie, an undersized one at that
Kevin Norwood is a rookie 4th rounder who probably isn't going to be that great
Brian Walters is on one of the few teams in the league that he could play for
Luke Willson will probably be out of the league in a few years
Cooper Helfet played lacrosse in college. Really all that needs to be said there.

It's seriously ridiculous what he's working with. And no need to mention the god awful OL. That speaks for itself. This is what happens when you burn draft picks on Percy Harvin however. I hope this upcoming draft is strictly BPA offense.

The basic question is fair but the criteria are poorly chosen. Willingness to throw and timidity are heavily influenced by the coaching staff; Pete wants a turnover free offense and will give up expected value to obtain it. Wilson's job is to protect the ball and giving the receivers "a chance to make the play" only works if you have receivers who can be relied on for contested passes. Maybe that is Norwood? It isn't Willson, Baldwin, Kearse, Richardson, Lockette, Walters, or Helfet.

Furthermore, we absolutely want Wilson to run. His mobility is a huge part of what makes him great and taking away his threat as a runner is like giving Lynch fewer carries to manage the workload. It's a good idea if we are ahead by 3 scores late, but if the game is close you need to rely on your star players to do what they do best without being scared of injury. Wilson does a good job of protecting himself as a runner and his chance of getting hurt with every passing play is probably just as high.

The criteria I agree with is the second one, regarding his ability to read the defense. He has been given more ability to audible over time but most here are too concerned with pinning a tail on Bevell to even think about whether a given play was an audible or not, and whether it should have been an audible or not.

I would also add a criteria regarding footwork and accuracy. He has been off for sure lately but I do think part of it is weather related. I don't agree with the comments on a "catchable" ball. If you are one of the best receivers on the planet you should be able to catch a ball that hits your hands whether it has zip on it or not.

During this pre-season Wilson looked the best he ever did... he really looked like everything was coming together beautifully. He looked like his pocket awareness was at an all time high, like the game was in slow motion for him and he always made the correct decision reacting perfectly and effortlessly. I know it's just pre-seson but Wilson looked like he was poised to have by far his best season yet and that's really something special considering how good he's been in his first 2 seasons.

Then during the beginning of the regular season Wilson was still doing very well, not quite up to the pre-season perfection "god mode" type play but clearly a top 5 QB no question. At one point of the season (several games in) Wilson had the Highest Passer Rating it was like 115 or so... Wilson also had an incredible TD/Interception ratio and about 70% completion rate.

After 4 games (Green Bay, San Diego, Denver, Washington) Wilson had 8 Touchdowns, 1 Interceptions, approximately 115 Passer Rating, approximately 70% completion percentage, and if I remember correctly he was on pace for the most rushing yards he's ever had for 1 season. OVERALL IT WAS BY FAR HIS BEST SEASON YET IF HE HAD CONTINUED AT THAT PACE ... HE WAS PROGRESSING!

But Wilson did appear to take some big hits against the Washington Redskins, I thought he might of even suffered from some kind of concussion against them because I have never seen Wilson look so lost and indecisive as he did against Dallas in Game 5. It's worth noting that Game 5 against Dallas seems to be the point where things reached a breaking point with Harvin and our whole team looked psychologically weak as they got battered around by the pumped up Cowboys squad. This really seems to be the turning point of our season and Russell Wilson's progression, although you could argue the turning point was Week 2 VS. San Diego where our defense lost their mojo and we inexcusably ran Lynch just 6 times.

But ever since the Redskins game Wilson has looked to be in some kind of slump. His interceptions went up, his touchdowns went down, and our passing game looked to be at an all time low. Wilson continues to be battered nearly every game and the refs for some reason never seem to call all the direct shots he's taking to the head...

Wilson had 4-5 games of uncharacteristic inaccurate throws. But it's also coming at a time where his receiver talent is at an all time low and Bevell may be struggling to rescheme the offense since he seemed to have everything focused on Harvin. Our receivers may not be up to speed with the new passing plan, everyone just looks lost out there and our passing routes look horrible in general, nobody is really ever open and the receivers look confused and hesitant.

Wilson seems to have regained his accuracy in week 11 against Kansas City but the rest of the Offense looked unprepared, so even with Wilson playing up to or close to his career average standard it wasn't enough.

So overall I would say that Wilson hasn't progressed this season even though he was showing all the signs in the world that he was making some huge steps early on... Due to the Harvin fiasco and the resulting poor performances I think it's safe to say Wilson has reached a plateau if you wanted to summarize the season. I don't think it's Wilsons fault though there are several key reasons why Wilson hasn't been "progressing" after his hot start:

1) We lost Harvin, Bevell has been salivating ever since we got him and you gotta believe our ENTIRE playbook revolved around Harvin. Whether Harvin was being used as a decoy or distraction or if he was the actual target, I think it's pretty clear that our entire offensive scheme revolved around him. Now we are basically starting from scratch, back to the basics and the game against the Chiefs seemed to me like where we normally should of been after the preseason and maybe 1-2 weeks of the regular season.... IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE SWITCHING TO AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT OFFENSE MID-SEASON INSTEAD OF BEING PREPARED WEEK 1... THAT IS A MONUMENTAL FAILURE!

2) We lost Zach Miller he was a huge part of our Offense mainly for his blocking but also his receiving, our TE game is no where near where it should be without him.

3) We lost Coleman, he was a solid FB and caught nearly every single pass for decent gains. So we now have no FB with any sort of chemistry with Wilson, and a bunch of backup 2nd-4th string TE's.

4) We lost Golden Tate so we could keep Harvin. This is the biggest factor for me, Golden Tate has always been money with Wilson he was essentially tied for our #1 receiver in 2012 (Sydney Rice) and 2013 (Doug Baldwin) in terms of total yards. When you factor in Tate's punt returns and his vicious blocking... I think it's safe to say Tate was our 3rd most important offensive player behind Wilson and Lynch. It's mind boggling that we let him go after all he's done for us in favor of the injury prone, bad attitude, poor route running, Harvin

5) Bevell and our coaches are struggling to design a passing game with undoubtably the worst overall receiving talent Wilson has ever had. There has been a significant and obvious shift to our Offensive Strategy when we moved on from Harvin. Our entire Offense is struggling to adjust to the "new" (post Harvin) or debatably "old" strategy that won us a Super Bowl last season.

6) Our Passing game was never that great to begin with last year, is it really that surprising that we would be struggling now that we lost Golden Tate and Zach Miller 2 of our most important guys?

7) Don't even get me started about our Offensive Line and play selection :34853_doh:


CONCLUSION:

Wilson has reached a plateau this season, it's hard to tell if he will have progressed or regressed by the end of the season since he's shown stretches of both.

I think it would be foolish to blame this on Wilson considering all of the points I made above...

If Wilson had a decent and healthy Offense around him, there is no doubt in my mind that he would be rapidly progressing just like he appeared to be in the pre-season and first few games.

Right now our Offensive talent as a whole (factoring in injuries) is a total joke. To make matters worst our guys look like they are confused and it's hard to tell if we just have some stupid players or if our coaches aren't teaching them quickly enough.

This is in no way Wilson's fault especially when you consider how many big hits to the head he's taking that the refs never call. Wilson will be fine and progress when the rest of the team is ready to win.

2 words. Offensive line. It all starts there. Look at Denver and New England and San Francisco last year. It seems like they have 6 foot concrete walls protecting the QB. I would trade Marshawn for New England's or Denver's O-line

HawkWow":1zwneld4 said:

Happypuppy":1zwneld4 said:

Look at yesterday's game with denver. Remove 2 receivers and they lose and Payton looks average.

We are playing with two FA receivers.

Look at Kearse. Can't get a ball on a dime on a corner fade

Fails on 4th to take route deep enough by a yard.


Where is Miller ? Injured. Willson is below expectations and has had way too many drops same with his backup.


It's not the QB. He is limited by his receivers

Click to expand...

Your points do very little for your position. And an argument could easily also be made that those receivers are "limited" by their QB.

Russ' passing numbers weren't much better when both Harvin and Miller were also on the field and the "FA" thing is way overdone. In fact, it's a joke. Baldwin has been in the NFL for 4 years and has contributed greatly to the success of this franchise. He also just signed a 3 year, 13 mil deal. "FA"?

Kearse has been in the league for 3 years and has made some huge plays for us as well. This means Russ has worked with these two every day of his professional career. How many QBs have worked with their respective receivers more in that same time period? To dismiss Baldwin and Kearse (at this stage) as mere "FAs" would be akin to saying Zorn was stuck with an 8th rounder as his primary target.

FTR, In no way am I suggesting Russ wouldn't benefit from better receivers...what QB wouldn't? I just don't believe our receivers are entirely to blame for all that ails our passing game. And IF Wilson wants 20 mil, where will we get the money to pay the better receivers you are suggesting he needs?

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Your agenda here is very clear, you do not want to play Wilson and want to ensure that everyone knows you felt his height was an issue and are still trying to convince everyone of it even if the facts show it is not. However you logic or lack there of his obvious as well.

So lets start with Bevel, sorry but he is bad his route trees are bad, Millan, Huard, Moon, and Holmgren has all said the play calling is bad. Now the big question is how much of that is Bevel and how much is PC and his risk adverse offense he wants. How come when Rw is given free rain he plays very very well? As those experts have said the play calling is part of what it holding Rw back. Another issue is the oline you need time to throw and most of the time he does not get it. Of course the Wr do not help, they get little separation, do not get open, and make few plays on the ball this year. Trying to blame Wilson for Kearse dropping of catchable TDs is proof of your agenda. We all have eyes, the experts I mentioned above have eyes and we all see very very catchable balls being dropped.

As to your last statement about paying Wilson and getting Better Wr. Really hmm seem Manning got paid has great WR, Draby, Rodgers, Romo, and I can go on and on. It can be done, but the FO would need to put money in the offense and change their system a little and that is not going to happen.

So is Rw progressing? In some ways yes, some just holding steady. But given the lack of talent around him that might be all we could expect. Again please show me were Baldwin our best Wr would be anything other than a #3 on any team below.

Luck – 3rd pass blocking o-line and has TY Hilton, Wyane, Nicks to throw to
P Manning- 2nd pass blocking o-line and he has Thomas, Welker, Sanders
Brady 7th ranked pass blocking o-line (ours is now ranked 28th) and he has Gronk, Edelman
Rodger o-line ranked 17th in pass blocking and has Nelson, Cobb to throw to
Brees o-line ranked 6th and he has Graham, cooks, Colson,
Ryan 12th pass blocking o-line and he has Hester, Jones, White, Smith
Rivers 11th o-line, and he has Gates, Floyd, Royal, Allen

Wilson 22nd ranked pass blocking oline and he has Baldwin, Kearse, TE-Wilson,


Notice every QB has a better oline and better WRs. NO top Qb has less talent around them than Wilson.
That is a fact

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

So yes he is progressing as much as the talent and play calling allows him

Having Harvin hurt his rapport with Richardson. I noticed a play this Sunday where Russell threaded the ball right between two defenders. Perfect pass. And Richardson was right there too.

At the moment Wilson was throwing the ball.

By the time the ball threaded the two defenders, Richardson had already sped past the spot. In other words, Wilson has timing issues with Richardsons speed. He hasn't gotten them worked out yet because the team wasted preseason and a few weeks in working with Harvin instead. Now Wilson and Richardson are learning each other on the job.

Same thing with Helfert who cut the wrong way. Those are Golden Tate his first two years kind of mistakes.