Sports Hernia
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Russ, Pete, both, or none of the above.
I’m thinking it was/is both.
I’m thinking it was/is both.
Who was/is the problem
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Sgt. Largent
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It's like any relationship that doesn't work out, probably a little bit of both people's issues.
Russ and his camp think he should be used a certain way, and Pete's deep seeded protect the ball, run the ball and play great defense philosophies clashed after Wilson became powerful enough within the locker room and organization to demand change.
Obviously not enough change and internal power over scheme and playcalling for his liking, so voila. Traded.
Russ and his camp think he should be used a certain way, and Pete's deep seeded protect the ball, run the ball and play great defense philosophies clashed after Wilson became powerful enough within the locker room and organization to demand change.
Obviously not enough change and internal power over scheme and playcalling for his liking, so voila. Traded.
Maelstrom787
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The only reasonable answer is "both," even if some of us tend to lean one way or the other in terms of assigning the lions share of blame.
In a decade long "marriage" gone awry, both parties nearly always share blame on some level.
In a decade long "marriage" gone awry, both parties nearly always share blame on some level.
bigskydoc
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Irreconcilable differences. Russ wanted to win the modern way, with the QB taking the lion's share, of the cap. Carroll wanted to win the old-fashioned way, with the QB taking up a smaller share of the cap.
Until a season or two play out, we may not know. I tend to believe it is more on Russ, who has seems incapable of understanding his own limitations; incapable of being a true team first player.
That is not to say that Carroll shares no blame. When given cap space to build the team, he has proved incapable of understanding his inability to make good trade deals, and bring in the players that fit our system.
In balance, though, I think the fault scales tip toward Russ. Denver will give him the opportunity to answer the question. Their success or failure will tell us more about the truth than the Seahawks next few years. (Much like the Tampa experience has confirmed Brady as the GOAT, but left the jury out on Belichick)
Until a season or two play out, we may not know. I tend to believe it is more on Russ, who has seems incapable of understanding his own limitations; incapable of being a true team first player.
That is not to say that Carroll shares no blame. When given cap space to build the team, he has proved incapable of understanding his inability to make good trade deals, and bring in the players that fit our system.
In balance, though, I think the fault scales tip toward Russ. Denver will give him the opportunity to answer the question. Their success or failure will tell us more about the truth than the Seahawks next few years. (Much like the Tampa experience has confirmed Brady as the GOAT, but left the jury out on Belichick)
SoulfishHawk
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Yes
CalgaryFan05
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I'm gonna say Russ. The reason that I say Russ, is just my experience with employees in general.
Many employees think that they will 'change' an organization once they feel undervalued.
It rarely works. I would say from a 'blame' front - PC/JS have largely remained what they were at the start. Russ did not - he changed the goalposts, became disgruntled, and left. The hawks didn't 'go' anywhere.
So, just from that standpoint - I'd say Russ' fault. Not in a mean way - just the way I see it. Note that PC/JS are trying to rebuild pretty much the exact same team from 10 years ago - so they didn't change.
If that was the metric
Many employees think that they will 'change' an organization once they feel undervalued.
It rarely works. I would say from a 'blame' front - PC/JS have largely remained what they were at the start. Russ did not - he changed the goalposts, became disgruntled, and left. The hawks didn't 'go' anywhere.
So, just from that standpoint - I'd say Russ' fault. Not in a mean way - just the way I see it. Note that PC/JS are trying to rebuild pretty much the exact same team from 10 years ago - so they didn't change.
If that was the metric
sdog1981
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Both are to blame.
I still place more blame on Pete. After the Cowboys playoff game in 2019, I asked what was the point of paying for a QB if Pete only wanted to win without a QB centric offense? Seem like he should have attempted to get his Pete-Ball system in place then and not give Russ the extension.
I still place more blame on Pete. After the Cowboys playoff game in 2019, I asked what was the point of paying for a QB if Pete only wanted to win without a QB centric offense? Seem like he should have attempted to get his Pete-Ball system in place then and not give Russ the extension.
CalgaryFan05
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I'd agree with that. True, Russ changed - but they should also have realized that. Well, and on the 'wasted money' front - at base - if they didn't want 'that type' of a QB anymore - well, they are responsible for not wasting the money. So, from that point - they are 1/2 to blame. Russ for the 'tude, and PC/JS for the $.
Sgt. Largent
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I place more blame on Russ. IMO he refuses to see the deficiencies and weaknesses in his own game.
The proof is in the play. When Russ was given a good running game and 2-3 WR's that could make plays downfield and get open when plays broke down, he was a top 2-3 QB in the league. When we needed him to carry the offense when our RB's started getting hurt, he struggled.
Denver's about to find out the same thing some of us including Pete and John have known for a while. Russell Wilson is not a QB you can let rip the ball all over the field 40 times a game and not have him get hurt and turn the ball over. He needs a good defense and run game.
Chawker
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Its Russ, winning the superbowl wasn't enough for him, he wanted MVPs, this cost us a second superbowl title. Then came "let Russ cook" campaign, trading him is a good thing.
Russ wants to be the greatest of all times,he'll fall "short" of this mark, because hes not that great of a leader.
Russ wants to be the greatest of all times,he'll fall "short" of this mark, because hes not that great of a leader.
toffee
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It is Pete Carroll's fault, and here is why:
He allowed himself to be sucked into placing Russell Wilson above the rest, from never drafting any qualified QB as back up, to preventing teammates from criticizing Russ, to getting rid of LOB to appease Russ. Pete didn't realize the only thing unlimited about Russell Wilson was his ambition, and he, Pete Carroll was nothing but a stepping stone. Pete Carroll basically lost the lock room with his appeasement.
Last season, after Russell rushed back from finger injury, why didn't Pete pull him after Russ was clearly not himself? hey let him start but pull him at half time? Pete couldn't, as he is so used to appeasing Russ, he wasn't carrying out his duty as head coach.
The fault is Pete's.
He allowed himself to be sucked into placing Russell Wilson above the rest, from never drafting any qualified QB as back up, to preventing teammates from criticizing Russ, to getting rid of LOB to appease Russ. Pete didn't realize the only thing unlimited about Russell Wilson was his ambition, and he, Pete Carroll was nothing but a stepping stone. Pete Carroll basically lost the lock room with his appeasement.
Last season, after Russell rushed back from finger injury, why didn't Pete pull him after Russ was clearly not himself? hey let him start but pull him at half time? Pete couldn't, as he is so used to appeasing Russ, he wasn't carrying out his duty as head coach.
The fault is Pete's.
All three of them seemed to try to balance wanting to move in different directions. And the result wasn't a productive compromise, like you'd ideally expect.
it resulted in this sort of directionless-ness and identity void. It was so weird, and painful to watch at a lot of moments.
it resulted in this sort of directionless-ness and identity void. It was so weird, and painful to watch at a lot of moments.
It depends on which potential problem we're talking about. If we're talking about why the Hawks haven't been as good as some feel they should then there's blame to go around between the FO and Russ.
However, if the 'problem' being discussed is that Russ is now on another team then my view is that no parties deserve blame. The Hawks paid Russ very well while he was here, and Russ thought he had a better opportunity on another team this year. The same people who fault Russ for seeing greener grass in Denver would likely have no problem changing jobs themselves for what they saw as a better opportunity.
The last two Super Bowls have been won by QBs switching teams. In a league where teams are always being pushed back to the mean it's an attractive proposition for a veteran expensive QB to move to a team that has been bad previously for a stretch and built up a ton of cheap talent as a result. It's like a cheat code for making a ton of money as a QB and still having a good team around you.
I think a better question is why wouldn't a veteran QB try to get themselves into a favorable situation these days? Rivers went from a 5-11 Chargers team to the Colts in his final season when he was 39 and pretty washed up and still led them to a 11-5 record. If he had forced a trade earlier in his 30s to a young talented team just missing a QB he would have had a much better chance of getting a Super Bowl or two on his resume.
However, if the 'problem' being discussed is that Russ is now on another team then my view is that no parties deserve blame. The Hawks paid Russ very well while he was here, and Russ thought he had a better opportunity on another team this year. The same people who fault Russ for seeing greener grass in Denver would likely have no problem changing jobs themselves for what they saw as a better opportunity.
The last two Super Bowls have been won by QBs switching teams. In a league where teams are always being pushed back to the mean it's an attractive proposition for a veteran expensive QB to move to a team that has been bad previously for a stretch and built up a ton of cheap talent as a result. It's like a cheat code for making a ton of money as a QB and still having a good team around you.
I think a better question is why wouldn't a veteran QB try to get themselves into a favorable situation these days? Rivers went from a 5-11 Chargers team to the Colts in his final season when he was 39 and pretty washed up and still led them to a 11-5 record. If he had forced a trade earlier in his 30s to a young talented team just missing a QB he would have had a much better chance of getting a Super Bowl or two on his resume.
rcaido
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The problem is the Rams or Jeff Fisher curse.
hawkfannj
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I personally think they both have shared blame P Carol shoulders an immense responsibility for letting that play happen in the Super Bowl that really lead to the slow bleed since then. Also Russell Wilson has become more of a brand than a football player it’s very obvious and understandable not everybody can keep focus like Tom Brady
GemCity
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Maybe we’ll find out this year. I would definitely use the upcoming season as a barometer for this question.
But, the excuses will be rampant. Expect nothing less.
But, the excuses will be rampant. Expect nothing less.
scutterhawk
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"Old School" Pete went out and got Marshawn Lynch = half of his dream Offense and then went out and found the other half in Russell Wilson.
I honestly don't think Russ liked sharing the limelight with 'Side Kick' Marshawn Lynch, but let's face it, that was when he and the Seahawks Offense had their most successful seasons.
Sadly though, there were folks touting that it was "Beastmode" and NOT Russell Wilson that gave the Seahawks Offense it's "IDENTITY"....How do some of y'all think that shook out in Wilson's mind? I'm thinking that it likely stuck in his craw some, so much so, that he felt he had to prove that he could win games WITHOUT having an RB stilling his thunder and yes, he proved in 2016 that he indeed could have as much success on his own... Well, he ALMOST proved he could, but come playoffs NOPE.
When you as the Head Coach have to budget/CAP for the success of an ENTIRE team you are hamstrung if your Quarterback is eating up a large portion of it.
Pete was riding the wave of his early successes, and believing he could old school his way through the pitfalls, Wilson benefitted from having a once in a generation RB & that LOB Defense locking down our opponents.
For me though? it'$ Wilson who take$ the bigge$t hit on thi$ ham$trining breakup.
I honestly don't think Russ liked sharing the limelight with 'Side Kick' Marshawn Lynch, but let's face it, that was when he and the Seahawks Offense had their most successful seasons.
Sadly though, there were folks touting that it was "Beastmode" and NOT Russell Wilson that gave the Seahawks Offense it's "IDENTITY"....How do some of y'all think that shook out in Wilson's mind? I'm thinking that it likely stuck in his craw some, so much so, that he felt he had to prove that he could win games WITHOUT having an RB stilling his thunder and yes, he proved in 2016 that he indeed could have as much success on his own... Well, he ALMOST proved he could, but come playoffs NOPE.
When you as the Head Coach have to budget/CAP for the success of an ENTIRE team you are hamstrung if your Quarterback is eating up a large portion of it.
Pete was riding the wave of his early successes, and believing he could old school his way through the pitfalls, Wilson benefitted from having a once in a generation RB & that LOB Defense locking down our opponents.
For me though? it'$ Wilson who take$ the bigge$t hit on thi$ ham$trining breakup.
bigskydoc
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If Russ goes on to kill it in Denver, then I will agree with this take. For now, I don't know if Pete didn't go to a QB centric offense because of stubborn desire to stick with Pete ball, or if he didn't have the QB to mount a QB centric offense, and was dialing up a game plan to protect Russ
Sgt. Largent
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I actually think Russ will do well in Denver, his first year.
Then he'll get paid again, and it'll be another bumpy ride for the Broncos as Russell blames them and their coaching staff for still not winning enough and not taking any of the responsibility himself like he did here.
chris98251
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Nah, Cover 2 and that division's pass rush, plus hey don't they also play the NFC West this year that all know Wilson as well. He will be lucky to make it through the season.
