Trevone Boykin

[rideaducati]

I think racial bias played a big role in Boykin going undrafted. GMs are going to look at off-field incidents differently if a person is black. It's unfortunate. .

I don't think there is any doubt that race is still a factor, not just in the NFL but in college as well..

Exactly. Which is why, for example, Winston and Mariota fell so far in the draft last year, and good guy Mariota got the nod ahead of bad boy Winston with all of his off-field issues.


-bsd

I think people find racial issues where racial issues don't exist. When a white QB sucks, it's okay to say he sucks, but when a black QB sucks and you say he sucks, you're a racist. Can't win.

By the way, Tarvaris sucks.

 

[JSeahawks]

I think racial bias played a big role in Boykin going undrafted. GMs are going to look at off-field incidents differently if a person is black. It's unfortunate. .

I don't think there is any doubt that race is still a factor, not just in the NFL but in college as well..

Exactly. Which is why, for example, Winston and Mariota fell so far in the draft last year, and good guy Mariota got the nod ahead of bad boy Winston with all of his off-field issues.


-bsd

Not very often I disagree with kearly but I seriously doubt race had anything to do with it. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist against black qbs, but not by nfl coaches and gm's. they want qb's who will win games do they can keep their own jobs, doesn't matter if they're white, black, green or blue.

 

[kearly]

I think racial bias played a big role in Boykin going undrafted. GMs are going to look at off-field incidents differently if a person is black. It's unfortunate. .

I don't think there is any doubt that race is still a factor, not just in the NFL but in college as well..

Exactly. Which is why, for example, Winston and Mariota fell so far in the draft last year, and good guy Mariota got the nod ahead of bad boy Winston with all of his off-field issues.


-bsd

Not very often I disagree with kearly but I seriously doubt race had anything to do with it. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist against black qbs, but not by nfl coaches and gm's. they want qb's who will win games do they can keep their own jobs, doesn't matter if they're white, black, green or blue.

I don't think "racism" has anything to do with it either. Don't confuse active racism with passive bias, which is often subconscious or involuntary. And I think it's pretty clear that biases played a role here. When was the last time a white QB with Boykins' stats and resume and tools went undrafted?

It's the same reason Jordy Nelson wasn't a 1st round pick. He absolutely had 1st round tape and ability. Doesn't mean GMs are racist against Whites. They just have biases.

There are non racial biases as well. For example, I don't think Adams has been an NFL pariah because he's black. He has a clean record, is a surgeon on the field, and is closer to being an average athlete than a great one. He doesn't fit into black stereotypes. Not all black QBs are going to be hurt by black QB bias. For Adams, it's a different set of equally stupid biases that are holding him back.

However, if a QB is an athlete first, needs a lot of seasoning, and got in trouble with the law, it's unfortunate but I do not think GMs would look at that player the same if he was black vs. if he was white. Talent evaluation in the NFL is basically professional profiling, so while it doesn't matter a lick to me, I think it's still a bad habit that GMs haven't rid themselves completely of just yet.

 

[rideaducati]

I don't think there is any doubt that race is still a factor, not just in the NFL but in college as well..

Exactly. Which is why, for example, Winston and Mariota fell so far in the draft last year, and good guy Mariota got the nod ahead of bad boy Winston with all of his off-field issues.


-bsd

Not very often I disagree with kearly but I seriously doubt race had anything to do with it. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist against black qbs, but not by nfl coaches and gm's. they want qb's who will win games do they can keep their own jobs, doesn't matter if they're white, black, green or blue.

When was the last time a white QB with Boykins' stats and resume went undrafted?

Jason White, 2005.

 

[kearly]

White didn't come close to having Boykins tools.

With regards to Winston, I don't think he fit the black QB stereotype very well. He was a field general with more size than speed. Everyone was comping him to white QBs like Big Ben. RG3 would be a better example of a black QB fitting the stereotype and being drafted high. Michael Vick too. Both of those guys were generational athletes with elite talent. Bias probably factored with them too, but they were so talented, and the talent dropoff to the next best QB was so immense that it ultimately didn't move the needle.

 

[rideaducati]

White didn't come close to having Boykins tools.

Name a white QB that has ever had the tools you're looking for. Those tools have been overlooked in EVERY QB forever because teams haven't wanted those tools in their QBs. QBs with those tools have rarely worked in the NFL, why would a front office want to risk their jobs on something that rarely works? This NFL doesn't allow for risks that don't work, so people play the percentages.

If teams had time to develop these guys, we would likely see more of them in the league. There is just too much difference in most teams starting QB and these athletic guys for teams to go with them as their backups or starters. Most teams would need two different offenses to go from one to the next.

With Boykins, the Seahawks could become the first team to have two athletic guys on their team. If they are successful, we could see a change coming. I think the Seahawks want to try this, but they are having difficulty with pulling the trigger themselves. They can't seem to find a way to move on from Tarvaris. I hope they finally do it this year because Boykins is the most similar guy to Russell that has come along.

 

[bigskydoc]

If anything, Boykin is the victim of being looked at through the same lens as the last WHITE QB who came into the league as a short, scrambling passer with a few off-field issues, instead of being seen entirely as his own man. This seems to be a fair, color-neutral, way to go about business to me.

Prior to the incident, he was a 4th round talent at best, and probably more likely 6th round. The incident probably is responsible for the drop from there, but certainly he didn't drop out of the top three rounds to go undrafted because of it.

- bsd

 

[kearly]

If anything, Boykin is the victim of being looked at through the same lens as the last WHITE QB who came into the league as a short, scrambling passer with a few off-field issues, instead of being seen entirely as his own man.

Who specifically are you referring to here? The last White QB who most closely matched the profile you described went in the 1st round to Cleveland.

I think there is evidence to suggest that not only do these types of petty biases still exist, but that the smarter teams are aware of them and even use them to their advantage. A couple years ago Seattle had 5 QBs in camp, and all five were African American. Clearly, this is an area that Seattle has identified as a market inefficiency, and they have reaped rewards from it. On the flip side, is it really a coincidence that Green Bay and New England draft a lot of white WRs? Is it because they love white people, or is it because they recognize that bias is creating a market inefficiency causing their market / draft value to be less than it should? It's not a coincidence either that the Seahawks, Packers, and Patriots are three of the best organizations in the NFL. Obviously, their QB play helps them, but generally speaking they tend to be a step ahead of everyone else in terms of identifying market inefficiencies and exploiting them to their advantage.

 

[rideaducati]

If anything, Boykin is the victim of being looked at through the same lens as the last WHITE QB who came into the league as a short, scrambling passer with a few off-field issues, instead of being seen entirely as his own man.

The last White QB who most closely matched Boykins profile... went in the 1st round to Cleveland.

I think there is evidence to suggest that not only do these types of petty biases still exist, but that the smarter teams are aware of them and even use them to their advantage. A couple years ago Seattle had 5 QBs in camp, and all five were African American. Clearly, this is an area that Seattle has identified as a market inefficiency, and they have reaped rewards from it. On the flip side, is it really a coincidence that Green Bay and New England draft a lot of white WRs? Is it because they love white people, or is it because they recognize that bias is creating a market inefficiency causing their market / draft value to be less than it should? It's not a coincidence either that the Seahawks, Packers, and Patriots are three of the best organizations in the NFL. Obviously, their QB play helps them, but generally speaking they tend to be a step ahead of everyone else in terms of identifying market inefficiencies and exploiting them to their advantage.

I think they might just like white people in Green Bay.

 

[Hawkpower]

According to Millen, Boykin looked colossally bad in his decision making over the weekend. He just couldn't get the hang of it and was playing "flyers up" for most of the weekend.

Millen also said that if RW ever "amounted to anything in the NFL" that he would "eat his microphone"

So, there's that.....

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

I'm rooting for Boykin to win the job because as bigskydoc said, his game is much closer to Russell's than T-Jack's and thus he'll give the team the best transition offensively and best chance to win if, God forbid, something happens to Wilson. Certainly if what Millen said is true, he's got a long way to go though.

 

[bigskydoc]

If anything, Boykin is the victim of being looked at through the same lens as the last WHITE QB who came into the league as a short, scrambling passer with a few off-field issues, instead of being seen entirely as his own man.

Who specifically are you referring to here? The last White QB who most closely matched the profile you described went in the 1st round to Cleveland.

And look what a huge success that turned out to be both on and off the field. That is exactly the situation I am referring to. I think Boykin is a victim of teams looking at the trainwreck that Manziel turned out to be, and not being willing to risk a possible repeat. If Manziel had experienced a measure of success on the field, I think Boykin would have been drafted in the 3rd round. As it was, he was a disaster both on and off the field. That hurt Boykin more than any race bias.


- bsd

 

[pmedic920]

Who specifically are you referring to here? The last White QB who most closely matched the profile you described went in the 1st round to Cleveland.

I think there is evidence to suggest that not only do these types of petty biases still exist, but that the smarter teams are aware of them and even use them to their advantage. A couple years ago Seattle had 5 QBs in camp, and all five were African American. Clearly, this is an area that Seattle has identified as a market inefficiency, and they have reaped rewards from it. On the flip side, is it really a coincidence that Green Bay and New England draft a lot of white WRs? Is it because they love white people, or is it because they recognize that bias is creating a market inefficiency causing their market / draft value to be less than it should? It's not a coincidence either that the Seahawks, Packers, and Patriots are three of the best organizations in the NFL. Obviously, their QB play helps them, but generally speaking they tend to be a step ahead of everyone else in terms of identifying market inefficiencies and exploiting them to their advantage.

IMO, this is great insight, never really looked at it that way but tend to agree whole heartedly.

 

[McGruff]

According to Millen, Boykin looked colossally bad in his decision making over the weekend. He just couldn't get the hang of it and was playing "flyers up" for most of the weekend.

Flies in the face of other reports, even from Pete, that the QB's were a direct contrast to previous year's where a lot of balls were thrown long or short. This year's passes were crisp and on target.

But of course, comparing to RJ Archer . . . .

 

[daveyoung52]

On the upside,Trevone is a Seahawk :thirishdrinkers:

 

[kearly]

I think Boykin wins the job.

I like that they got his college center in rookie camp, which gives him a bit of an edge.

Makes you wonder if Seattle had an eye on Boykin when they drafted Hunt.

 

[kearly]

I think Boykin wins the job.

I like that they got his college center in rookie camp, which gives him a bit of an edge.

Hunt looks like a short, chubby version of Moffitt. Am I wrong?

His height does not define his skillset!

Until he gets caught pissing in public, all Moffitt comps are a stretch.

I see him as fat Steve Vallos. I'm keeping my expectations very low, but I like the pick. If nothing else because it helped Seattle dump Nowak just a little faster.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I think Boykin wins the job.

I like that they got his college center in rookie camp, which gives him a bit of an edge.

Hunt looks like a short, chubby version of Moffitt. Am I wrong?

His height does not define his skillset!

Until he gets caught pissing in public, all Moffitt comps are a stretch.

I see him as fat Steve Vallos. I'm keeping my expectations very low, but I like the pick. If nothing else because it helped Seattle dump Nowak just a little faster.

Agree on the Hunt pick. He seems like a product that will be finished if he can just get a bit stronger. Other than that, dude plays pretty darn good. No expectations, but high hopes.

Also agree on the racial bias prevalent in the NFL. I don't see how anyone can seriously argue that remnants of "black quarterback" style stereotypes don't still exist in the NFL.

Anyone got any more reports on Boykin's performance thus far? I would guess that he doesn't make the cut for the roster. To me, he doesn't seem to have enough poise throwing to be able to make it. His improv work won't be quite as effective in the pros, either.

 

[hawk45]

I don't know that I'm arguing that zero remnants of a "black quarterback" stereotype remain in the NFL, but I think rideaducati is closer to the mark in that NFL teams value success above all else.

The NFL is down the supply-chain from college. Athletic quarterbacks can have, and have had great success in college offenses, to the point where college QBs are selected for those attributes. So, a great many of black college QBs are athletic, and have more athletic instincts than a slower, less-agile white quarterback would.

The NFL, on the other hand, has seen far, far less success with QBs of any color who run frequently than it has seen with pocket statues. An NFL franchise MUST play the percentages or fall behind franchises that do, hence the trends at RB or WR away from white athletes. Further, the NFL has seen several extremely high profile cases of athletic black (and white in the case of Manziel) quarterbacks who were supposed to be the franchise-making exceptions but instead doomed their franchises to failure over a decade. Vick, RGIII, Manziel. Even Kaepernick could be considered as a QB who wasn't viable once the threat of rushing is removed. Russell Wilson is the only QB I can think of of any color who possesses enough athleticism to be a game changer but who can turn off those running instincts like a switch when the game plan calls for it and operate from the pocket exclusively.

There is, therefore, a strong and appropriate bias against QBs with anything approaching significant athletic instincts, and that is what would be at play with Boykin. If that is what the majority of college black QBs possess, then the NFL isn't biased from some nefarious belief, it is just reacting to the pool of candidates which are available. I would argue that college isn't biased either, like the NFL it is selecting for the attributes which make a successful team at its own level.

Jamarcus Russell, Daunte Culpepper, and Donovan McNabb were all highly-selected black QBs, and although McNabb could scoot, all three had pocket-passer instincts and that is why they were selected highly. The NFL didn't care about their color, it cared about whether they could pass from the pocket.

Now, if someone more familiar with college ball than I am knows of numerous examples of lights-out black college passers, who were successful without heavy reliance on athleticism, who were ignored by the NFL, then THAT would be evidence of a bias based on something other than NFL critical success factors. For all I know those examples are out there. But the arguments in this thread for racial bias ignore that a bias against running QBs would look precisely the same and have nothing to do with racism in the NFL.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I don't want to get into this too deep because it always turns political, but the idea that "nfl coaches don't care about race is wishful thinking"

Family friends do a lot of coaching, mainly in baseball all the way up to the pro level. There is absolutely both racism and classism on every step of the ladder. It sometimes astounds some of them, and it admittedly is worse in the EC than the West but it is there.

Is it rational? No. But human beings are not rational creatures, they are emotional ones.

Add to that a few people I know connected to NFL scouts (from this area but work for teams not in Seattle, mostly the our enemies frankly), and you hear the same stuff.

Now, there are stories about Pete during his time at USC going into the depths of the inner city to help kids that had no shot of making his team, or some that even did not play football. There is not a part of me that believes Pete has even a sliver of racism in him.

But even considering the sheer number of minorities in the NFL (to the point they are a majority), and even considering that close-minded views get you more losses - there are absolutely people on every level of the ladder that actively or passively screw over minorities because of their personal petty prejudices.

If Boykin was not a minority would he have gotten more praise for being an athletic QB? Ask Tim Tebow. But that team was night and day better with him vs. without him. And I have seen some much worse QBs that accomplished less get plenty of accolades because they looked the part.

One of those guys played QB for Missouri, as a for instance.