Things the front office has done very badly

[Maelstrom787]

I want to make it clear that I'm not a blind sycophant for the current front office by acknowledging the following criticisms of the staff over the years:

• They catered to Russ for too long near the end, and they should've just forced him to run what he was good at instead of acquiescing to Let Russ Cook to appease him. He threatened not to re-sign. Should've just let him and traded him anyway afterwards rather than catering to that.
• The Jamal Adams trade was... not good. I don't necessarily agree that it was terrible in terms of philosophy - they wanted another run with Russ and Jamal Adams was universally regarded as a fantastic talent at safety. Extremely versatile, and fairly healthy at the time. But you can never give up that much capital for... really anyone, outside of incredible defensive linemen (like, Myles Garrett type stuff) or quarterback. Maybe a top-5 receiver like Hill, Jefferson, or Chase.
• The draft criteria got outside of the realm of reason for a while. It led to a continual gulf of talent that they relied on the existing roster and coaching to compensate for, which took the ceiling of the team and crushed it for a while in the late 2010s.
• Hurtt should've been fired in 2022. I don't mind taking a chance on homegrown coaches who happen to be excellent positional coaches, but 2022 was beyond the pale. 2023 is middling, but not good enough to inspire confidence going forward.
• Cable should've been fired... earlier. Jesus.
• I'd like to see a much heavier emphasis on experience when going for coordinators. We need some competent, steady hands.

Those are my current thoughts. I understand there are more criticisms, but I make this post to highlight something important - nuance. There are bad things, and there are good things, and I want to acknowledge them in a balanced way.

 

[Ozzy]

It’s possible they completely failed with the Jones and Williams acquisitions too. The drafting has been terrible even when factoring in draft positioning.

I disagree on Wilson and think he carried a horrible roster (almost no high end talent outside of Russ yet they kept winning 10 games) but that’s an argument for a different thread.

The front office has hit on some stuff and missed terribly. My theory is it was at up to fail by essentially having two gms. John does a lot of stuff but Pete has the ultimate power and injects at times too. Both great dudes who get along but maybe not the best business model. I could be wrong.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I want to make it clear that I'm not a blind sycophant for the current front office by acknowledging the following criticisms of the staff over the years:

• They catered to Russ for too long near the end, and they should've just forced him to run what he was good at instead of acquiescing to Let Russ Cook to appease him. He threatened not to re-sign. Should've just let him and traded him anyway afterwards rather than catering to that.
• The Jamal Adams trade was... not good. I don't necessarily agree that it was terrible in terms of philosophy - they wanted another run with Russ and Jamal Adams was universally regarded as a fantastic talent at safety. Extremely versatile, and fairly healthy at the time. But you can never give up that much capital for... really anyone, outside of incredible defensive linemen (like, Myles Garrett type stuff) or quarterback. Maybe a top-5 receiver like Hill, Jefferson, or Chase.
• The draft criteria got outside of the realm of reason for a while. It led to a continual gulf of talent that they relied on the existing roster and coaching to compensate for, which took the ceiling of the team and crushed it for a while in the late 2010s.
• Hurtt should've been fired in 2022. I don't mind taking a chance on homegrown coaches who happen to be excellent positional coaches, but 2022 was beyond the pale. 2023 is middling, but not good enough to inspire confidence going forward.
• Cable should've been fired... earlier. Jesus.
• I'd like to see a much heavier emphasis on experience when going for coordinators. We need some competent, steady hands.

Those are my current thoughts. I understand there are more criticisms, but I make this post to highlight something important - nuance. There are bad things, and there are good things, and I want to acknowledge them in a balanced way.

I don't believe the Adams trade was good in philosophy either. At the time, the team needed pass rushers terribly and I think Pete thought Adams would solve that issue while being a good safety too. The problem was that he couldn't be both at the same time and opposing teams feasted on that. Pete should have just gotten what was needed in the first place as evident when Dunlap was brought in.

Bevell needed let go the minute after the Super Bowl loss to set an example and appease the players. It was dire to do so and a huge mistake not being done. It was all over when he was kept.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I don't believe the Adams trade was good in philosophy either. At the time, the team needed pass rushers terribly and I think Pete thought Adams would solve that issue while being a good safety too. The problem was that he couldn't be both at the same time and opposing teams feasted on that. Pete should have just gotten what was needed in the first place as evident when Dunlap was brought in.

Bevell needed let go the minute after the Super Bowl loss to set an example and appease the players. It was dire to do so and a huge mistake not being done. It was all over when he was kept.

At the time, it really felt like they needed some versatile back-end talent to up the speed and disguise ability on D. They did have a lot of issues up front as well, though. Absolutely true.

I identified a similar need myself earlier in that offseason. I advocated for trading up big for Isaiah Simmons to fulfill largely the same role, a take of mine which has aged like diarrhea on hot pavement. But it felt like they needed a field-tilter on D to abate predictability. A one-man wrecking crew. Adams, initially, was the prince that was promised. He was blitzed a lot, but not all the time - something like 12-14% of his snaps if I recall correctly in his first year when he got the derisive "blitz boy" moniker. Could serve as a sub LB, big nickel, insane blitzer, and deep safety (he did this a lot with the Jets, and well) with some prowess in each role.

Two firsts was always going to age poorly, though. I think that decision was probably a combo of John wanting to go in big on a stud, and Pete salivating at the several ways in which Adams could be deployed. It fits both of their MOs.

As for Bevell, yeah. It's.. much easier to say in hindsight for me, though. At the time, that coordinator had contributed to bringing you to two straight Super Bowls. Even in the face of the Biggest Nutkick In Football History, that's gotta be hard to fire. Then, in 2015, they found a big groove on offense when Rawls went off and Russell got possessed.

2016 would've made the most sense to me at the time for firing Bevell, if I'm honest with myself and putting myself in their shoes (without knowing the full organizational dynamics). Keeping him through 2017 was peak "what are we even doing here??" though. Cable too. Dear god, especially Cable. Looking back, though? Man. Wonder how it'd be if they simply hit 'em with the "mutual parting, philosophical differences" a few weeks after the Big L.

 

[DJ_CJ]

The very first point with Russ being catered to doesn’t get highlighted enough in regards to how much it tilted things from onset to which only became more and more. Love Russ for everything he did but each year he just became less and less of the person he was. He would keep saying cliche team things when interviewed all while seeing himself as more and his brand. The last couple years of 3 and out drives constantly, 3rd and 1 ope better throw a 30 yard double coverage sideline route. Trying to prove he’s a pocket passer yet never looking to extend chains or move the pocket. Biggest tell on that was his last year in Seattle. Last 2 games of the year, team eliminated from playoffs yet all of a sudden now he’s taking off and running. He was simply auditioning for suitors the next year.

 

[Jac]

This team is terrible at trading for talent for appropriate draft compensation value. Coincidentally (or not), the one trade that did work out (Lynch) was for a 4th rounder.

 

[Maelstrom787]

This team is terrible at trading for talent for appropriate draft compensation value. Coincidentally (or not), the one trade that did work out (Lynch) was for a 4th rounder.

I guess this is a better overall point than looking at just the Adams trade.

All of their big trades have been absolutely reprehensible. I don't mind Clowney or Leonard Williams type stuff, but Harvin/Graham/Adams is just... Jesus. That's 4 first rounders and more. Big contracts as well. For outright disappointments.

I don't think we can explain that away just as a Pete thing, either. John is definitely signing off on and negotiating these trades. Pete seems to listen to John when it comes to the direction of the franchise. Pete didn't want to lose Russ at the time, yet he still let John negotiate potential trades, scout Mahomes, very publicly scout Josh Allen right before Russ extension time was coming... Hell, watching the war room in 2019, Pete didn't even know they were trading up for DK Metcalf until John sealed the deal and he said something like "wait, we got Metcalf?"

It's a systemic issue that I think they learned from, based on their statements. The big swings seem like they'll be capped at roughly the Leonard Williams trade in terms of expenditure going forward unless something insane drops into their lap like.. I dunno, Pat Surtain II for a single first rounder.

 

[FloridaSeahawk18]

1. Team Identity. Wanting to be a run-first physical powerhouse team but spending our cap-space on nonchalant or deranged Safeties and Wide Receivers.
2. Agree on all terrible trades and free-agent acquisitions. One of these would get a coach or GM fired and we've had way more to count. Most were anti-identity or team culture ruining as well (ie Unger for Graham, Cary Williams, Percy Harvin, Sheldon Richardson)
3. Blind loyalty to consistent injured players or nepotistic coordinators. Prosise, Rashard Penny, Bevell/Cable after the Superbowl, Norton, Hurtt.

 

[James in PA]

Building from outside in.

Drafting Eskridge over Humphrey should be a fireable offense alone. What a moronic move that was. Everyone and their mother was screaming for Humphrey. Classic "we're smarter than everyone else" move.

This FO does not value the trenches and it really pisses me off.

 

[cymatica]

I think the first red flag started with acquiring Harvin and paying him a bunch of money and snubbing Tate who brought some attitude to the offense. After that, Pete and John were constantly looking for flash players while striking out in the trenches. Players like Graham didn't fit with this team culturally, and it was made worse by ditching Unger to aquire him.

And who the hell pays safeties that much money in such a vanilla defense? If you want to just line up and show your hand, spend that money on the front 7 or at least the dline.

 

[TwistedHusky]

This FO is good at finding field tilters and home run hitters.
It isn't great at filling holes. It might be terrible at that.

We can find raw talent, and even coach it up to develop it into an exceptional player.
We aren't great at adjusting our tactics and strategy to take advantage of that player's strengths though. So we tend to get guys that flash great potential but teams with too many holes
What we love to do instead, is use a player almost like we used another star player earlier. Which rarely works, because every star player is unique and players are NOT interchangeable cogs.

So we get this seemingly endless stream of star or near star players, that always seem to be used wrong. Because we force players into the system/plan instead of adapt the plan to the players. It never quite seems to work.

In the end, that means we usually are still struggling to fill holes (that we pile player after player into attempting to fix or even draft our way out of). And we usually struggle to get the kind of production, from the great talent we find/grow, that you would expect.
It often gives us the fans a weird combination of hope/apprehension followed by disappointment (Riq, Woolen, Metcalf, are good examples of this).

Somehow we later underachieve with a roster that few initially expected much from, because some amazing players surface seemingly change the equation - but rarely the result. (Meanwhile, everyone forgets about the endless procession of nobodies that we slam at holes in the roster or overpaid FAs we shove at them).

 

[Mad Dog]

Building from outside in.

Drafting Eskridge over Humphrey should be a fireable offense alone. What a moronic move that was. Everyone and their mother was screaming for Humphrey. Classic "we're smarter than everyone else" move.

This FO does not value the trenches and it really pisses me off.

We needed a solid off ball LB at that spot more than we needed Humphrey. Any smart guard can play center. Bolton would have been the better pick that both Creed and Dee.

 

[renofox]

We needed a solid off ball LB at that spot more than we needed Humphrey. Any smart guard can play center. Bolton would have been the better pick that both Creed and Dee.

Honest Q: If it's so easy to find a good center, why have the Seahawks failed utterly?

Is it just their general scouting incompetence when it comes to building the lines? Do their line coaches consistently suck at actually coaching up players? Are there schemes so horrible the players are at a huge disadvantage?

I think it's the perfect sh!tstorm of all 3.

 

[Optimus25]

Building from outside in.

Drafting Eskridge over Humphrey should be a fireable offense alone. What a moronic move that was. Everyone and their mother was screaming for Humphrey. Classic "we're smarter than everyone else" move.

This FO does not value the trenches and it really pisses me off.

Or knowing the situation with Bobby (aging) and KJ (moving on) passing on Nick Bolton, who is quietly one of the better LBs in the league.

 

[knownone]

I don't have any issues with the Adams trade unless we're evaluating the trade with the benefit of hindsight. Same with drafting, I did a breakdown of their relative draft value a few years back, and they were around 30th during their bad stretch of drafts. It's not surprising that they started drafting better with higher-value picks. So what's made the difference? The shift in philosophy or having significantly more value?

That said, the FO is a trainwreck from a philosophical standpoint. Their public comments indicate they are too obsessed with cultural fit and tend to overcorrect when things aren't going their way. They also tend to look backward when determining how to construct their roster. So when almost every data point indicates that building your O/D lines is the best way to construct a title contender, Seattle went backward and built their team from the outside in.

 

[morgulon1]

Honest Q: If it's so easy to find a good center, why have the Seahawks failed utterly?

Is it just their general scouting incompetence when it comes to building the lines? Do their line coaches consistently suck at actually coaching up players? Are there schemes so horrible the players are at a huge disadvantage?

I think it's the perfect sh!tstorm of all 3.

It's starts with the lines. This doesn't seem to be important to these guys. Injury prone players seems to be important though.

There's no real juice from anyone. Just dudes cashing checks. I mistakenly thought this team was actually good . Heck, maybe they are better but we'll never know as long as Grandpa is running things. Poor coaching .

They had a great team that deteriorated then rather than hitting the reset button and take their licks for a few seasons, they thought they could piece together a contender through poor trades and FA and questionable drafts. in the meantime our NFC west brethren brought in Petey's kryptonite in the form of offensive minded coaches who
Know how to carve Pete's weak ass up.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Honest Q: If it's so easy to find a good center, why have the Seahawks failed utterly?

Is it just their general scouting incompetence when it comes to building the lines? Do their line coaches consistently suck at actually coaching up players? Are there schemes so horrible the players are at a huge disadvantage?

I think it's the perfect sh!tstorm of all 3.

I think it's partly fan perception, honestly. A lot of people I trust were singing Pocic's praises during his last years here, but everyone thought replacing him was the biggest need on the team. Obviously, turns out he is quite good. Britt was also decent. Hell, Britt was a Pro Bowl alt year 1 at center (2016). We never remember that dude, but he held it down.

I think we attribute line failures to the center more than we should due to the sting of losing Unger in a bad trade. But that mess really only persisted until Britt settled at center. Unger->Massive Failures->Britt reclamation->Pocic finally playing his natural spot->Bad Stopgap Blythe->Better Stopgap Brown.

Lot of coaching woes leading to less than optimal paths, but not that much utter failure in the actual play department.

And, yes. Creed obviously would've been nice, but the rest of the league passed on him a bunch too, and WR3 was a big need. Can't have Freddie Swain as your WR3 in an 11 personnel league. Pocic was a better center than Swain was a WR3. Would've been nice had Dee not ended up sucking ass, which disappoints me because he seemed like a promising option as a versatile Parris Campbell type. He was money on slants especially at WKU.

And yes, I was also saying "oh, hey, take Creed" when they were on the clock. I just get their perspective of going for WR3 from a team building perspective, even if it didn't work out. Lot of other good teams passed on Creed as well, he almost got to the third. In a league where the best centers go 17-32 overall usually, and given Creed's outstanding athletic testing, I have to wonder if there's something we just didn't know. Might've been bombing interviews.

 

[Ozzy]

I guess this is a better overall point than looking at just the Adams trade.

All of their big trades have been absolutely reprehensible. I don't mind Clowney or Leonard Williams type stuff, but Harvin/Graham/Adams is just... Jesus. That's 4 first rounders and more. Big contracts as well. For outright disappointments.

I don't think we can explain that away just as a Pete thing, either. John is definitely signing off on and negotiating these trades. Pete seems to listen to John when it comes to the direction of the franchise. Pete didn't want to lose Russ at the time, yet he still let John negotiate potential trades, scout Mahomes, very publicly scout Josh Allen right before Russ extension time was coming... Hell, watching the war room in 2019, Pete didn't even know they were trading up for DK Metcalf until John sealed the deal and he said something like "wait, we got Metcalf?"

It's a systemic issue that I think they learned from, based on their statements. The big swings seem like they'll be capped at roughly the Leonard Williams trade in terms of expenditure going forward unless something insane drops into their lap like.. I dunno, Pat Surtain II for a single first rounder.

We’ve also had leaks saying the opposite though that Pete at times during the horrific draft years was overriding the scouting department and forcing a couple of well known terrible picks. I know everyone hates Cowherd but he talked about it. I think at times it’s likely Pete did exactly that. I’d still argue the system of a gm being under a coach is never a good idea and Pete does have that ultimate authority

 

[Maelstrom787]

We’ve also had leaks saying the opposite though that Pete at times during the horrific draft years was overriding the scouting department and forcing a couple of well known terrible picks. I know everyone hates Cowherd but he talked about it. I think at times it’s likely Pete did exactly that. I’d still argue the system of a gm being under a coach is never a good idea and Pete does have that ultimate authority

I don't think I agree that it's never a good idea. It did lead to the best stretches of drafts perhaps any team has ever had in the history of the NFL.

Of course, it led to a maddening drought of effective drafting afterwards. But these guys seem like they're fairly lock-stepped and they've had a great working relationship for nearly 15 years. I'm not saying the leak is incorrect, as I have no insider knowledge at all, of course. But I don't know if Pete is pulling rank on JS very often when JS could simply leave for a bevy of other GM jobs.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

I want to make it clear that I'm not a blind sycophant for the current front office by acknowledging the following criticisms of the staff over the years:

• They catered to Russ for too long near the end, and they should've just forced him to run what he was good at instead of acquiescing to Let Russ Cook to appease him. He threatened not to re-sign. Should've just let him and traded him anyway afterwards rather than catering to that.
• The Jamal Adams trade was... not good. I don't necessarily agree that it was terrible in terms of philosophy - they wanted another run with Russ and Jamal Adams was universally regarded as a fantastic talent at safety. Extremely versatile, and fairly healthy at the time. But you can never give up that much capital for... really anyone, outside of incredible defensive linemen (like, Myles Garrett type stuff) or quarterback. Maybe a top-5 receiver like Hill, Jefferson, or Chase.
• The draft criteria got outside of the realm of reason for a while. It led to a continual gulf of talent that they relied on the existing roster and coaching to compensate for, which took the ceiling of the team and crushed it for a while in the late 2010s.
• Hurtt should've been fired in 2022. I don't mind taking a chance on homegrown coaches who happen to be excellent positional coaches, but 2022 was beyond the pale. 2023 is middling, but not good enough to inspire confidence going forward.
• Cable should've been fired... earlier. Jesus.
• I'd like to see a much heavier emphasis on experience when going for coordinators. We need some competent, steady hands.

Those are my current thoughts. I understand there are more criticisms, but I make this post to highlight something important - nuance. There are bad things, and there are good things, and I want to acknowledge them in a balanced way.

Thanks for this post. I also want a new defensive coordinator. Do you think it might finally happen?