Seahawks acquire Kelcie McCray from the Chiefs (S)

[BullHawk33]

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today!

Last year showed we needed depth at safety and our backups did not play well. Thursday showed our backup Safeties (and cornerbacks) had a difficult time with 3rd and 4th string wide receivers and couldn't take advantage of the pressure that Clark and the others were putting on the QB. For all the talk of how awesome our front 7 looked, how stacked we are, the back end showed their receivers could get open in a pretty short amount of time.

I'm all for this, as long as the player is worth a darn.

 

[hawkfan68]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Yeah JS is a horrible GM, right? Give your head a shake.

Remember when he acquired Marshawn Lynch for a 4th round pick?

That's not at all what I was saying. Schneider can simultaneously be one of the top 3 GMs in the game while tending to pay top dollar in terms of trade compensation.

Of course the Lynch trade (which was actually for two picks) was a great deal, but if you objectively look at Schneider's trade history, he often overpays. The most obvious example was giving up a 1st, 3rd, and 7th for Percy. Irrespective of how he turned out as a player, at the time that was too much to give up for someone who immediately got a top-of-the market extension. It would have been much more reasonable if he had a couple cheap years of team control left on his deal.

Like DavidSeven mentioned, if you look at Schneider's record of draft day pick swaps he often ends up giving up more than the other team. My guess is that he's just not a hard line negotiator, which may be his one weakness as a GM. In comparison, Trent Baalke is not nearly the talent evaluator that Schneider is, but he tends to get plus-value when trading draft picks and negotiates very team-friendly extensions with low base salaries and lots of roster and performance bonuses.

Now I've seen and read it all. Comparing JS to Trent Baalke, seriously? Baalke isn't even in the same ballpark as Schnieder.

 

[BullHawk33]

Like DavidSeven mentioned, if you look at Schneider's record of draft day pick swaps he often ends up giving up more than the other team. My guess is that he's just not a hard line negotiator, which may be his one weakness as a GM. In comparison, Trent Baalke is not nearly the talent evaluator that Schneider is, but he tends to get plus-value when trading draft picks and negotiates very team-friendly extensions with low base salaries and lots of roster and performance bonuses.

It could also be that if Schneider is interested, the rest of the league raises the price since he is so successful. We have a pay a premium because our picks are late in each round and everyone wants to see us drop.

 

[titan3131]

yes thats him slammin megatron.

and heres is some tape.

[youtube]sf4UiFVK3rE[/youtube]

and college tape

[youtube]TZholHL9V4[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TZholHL9V4

 

[bigwrm]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Yeah JS is a horrible GM, right? Give your head a shake.

Remember when he acquired Marshawn Lynch for a 4th round pick?

That's not at all what I was saying. Schneider can simultaneously be one of the top 3 GMs in the game while tending to pay top dollar in terms of trade compensation.

Of course the Lynch trade (which was actually for two picks) was a great deal, but if you objectively look at Schneider's trade history, he often overpays. The most obvious example was giving up a 1st, 3rd, and 7th for Percy. Irrespective of how he turned out as a player, at the time that was too much to give up for someone who immediately got a top-of-the market extension. It would have been much more reasonable if he had a couple cheap years of team control left on his deal.

Like DavidSeven mentioned, if you look at Schneider's record of draft day pick swaps he often ends up giving up more than the other team. My guess is that he's just not a hard line negotiator, which may be his one weakness as a GM. In comparison, Trent Baalke is not nearly the talent evaluator that Schneider is, but he tends to get plus-value when trading draft picks and negotiates very team-friendly extensions with low base salaries and lots of roster and performance bonuses.

Now I've seen and read it all. Comparing JS to Trent Baalke, seriously? Baalke isn't even in the same ballpark as Schnieder.

I called Schneider a top 3 GM in the game and a much better talent evaluator. Is it really that treasonous to believe that Baalke is a better contract/trade negotiator?

 

[bigwrm]

We're getting a little off-topic, but this discussion got me thinking about the qualities that make up a good GM and I came up with four general categories:

• 
  -Scouting
  -Roster/Salary Cap Management
  -Negotiation
  -Leadership/Staff

JS is one of the best when it comes to scouting and roster/cap management. The leadership and staff in the organization are clearly very strong, although it's unclear how much of that is Pete's influence and how much comes from Schneider. Negotiation is really the only area where I would say JS isn't well above average.

 

[lukerguy]

If Schneider didn't know how to draw a hard line, Kam would be in the locker room right now, and Russ wouldn't have taken until the last hour to accept his new deal.

 

[hawkfan68]

I called Schneider a top 3 GM in the game and a much better talent evaluator. Is it really that treasonous to believe that Baalke is a better contract/trade negotiator?

Not at all. What trades and negotiations has Baalke made to warrant this honor you bestow on him? Wasn't he the one to negotiate a $2M contract with Darnell Dockett only to see him get waived and SF to lose $2M. Just one example. Didn't he sign Stevie Johnson to a deal and now he's on the Chargers. Really about the only decent signing he made that has panned out is Anquan Boldin. JS has done pretty well in acquiring guys to fit the Seahawks. He got Kevin Williams last year. Kevin played a critical role. I believe he was had for a reasonable contract. So was Tony McDaniel the year prior. While McCrary isn't a prolific safety, he's not needed to be. He may be a decent candidate to replace Jeron Johnson. Which what the Seahawks need.

 

[marymoorhawk]

Saw this article posted in the comments section on Field Gulls. http://kckingdom.com/2015/03/14/kc-chiefs-sign-jason-avant-kelcie-mccray-and-richard-gordon/

Meanwhile, the 6’1″ 202 lb. Kelcie McCray is a special teams ace. McCray made Pro Football Focus’ All-Pro special team squad as the best “vice” in the NFL: one of the players whose job it is to slow down gunners on punt returns.

Lockett is gonna love this guy ...

 

[McG]

To everyone worried about us sending a 5th for this guy and that we now don't have a 5th and a 6th, here's the easy fix. Move back with the 1st, 2nd or 3rd picks. Example, move out of the 2nd (64th OVR ) and get back 3rd, 5th and 6th. Or, move out of the 1st and get a 2nd, 3rd and 5th. It can be done easily and I know our team knows how to scout other teams players. They probably have a high grade for this guy to be worth of the 5th rounder (which is basically a high 6th) that we just gave them. Everyone relax.

 

[bigwrm]

I called Schneider a top 3 GM in the game and a much better talent evaluator. Is it really that treasonous to believe that Baalke is a better contract/trade negotiator?

Not at all. What trades and negotiations has Baalke made to warrant this honor you bestow on him? Wasn't he the one to negotiate a $2M contract with Darnell Dockett only to see him get waived and SF to lose $2M. Just one example. Didn't he sign Stevie Johnson to a deal and now he's on the Chargers. Really about the only decent signing he made that has panned out is Anquan Boldin. JS has done pretty well in acquiring guys to fit the Seahawks. He got Kevin Williams last year. Kevin played a critical role. I believe he was had for a reasonable contract. So was Tony McDaniel the year prior. While McCrary isn't a prolific safety, he's not needed to be. He may be a decent candidate to replace Jeron Johnson. Which what the Seahawks need.

Ugh, somehow I got in the position of defending Baalke? Anyhow, I wasn't talking about scouting or talent evaluation in any way. I'm just referring to extracting maximum value out of the deals you decide to make based on what the market dictates at the time. In that respect, Baalke does very well.

For example, in last year's draft the 49ers traded pick no. 15 and received pick no. 17, no. 117, and a 2016 5th rounder. In 2014, they traded pick no. 56 and 242 for pick no. 63, 171, and a 2015 4th rounder. Those trades were both steals in terms of draft compensation. Say what you will about Baalke as a talent evaluator, but there is no question that does a good job of accumulating draft capital.

When it comes to contract negotiation, I was mainly referring to extensions of their own players. They extended Joe Staley and Navarro Bowman at bargain rates. Yes, even Kaepernick (whatever you may think of him) was signed to a very team-friendly deal.

 

[scutterhawk]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Yeah JS is a horrible GM, right? Give your head a shake.

Remember when he acquired Marshawn Lynch for a 4th round pick?

But you have to admit while he's made a ton of great moves, there have been some head scratchers.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of folks just want to narrow their focus on the bad trades, and use them to degrade the positives that JS has accomplished though.
With John Schneider?, I'll gladly take the good with the bad.

 

[DavidSeven]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Yeah JS is a horrible GM, right? Give your head a shake.

Remember when he acquired Marshawn Lynch for a 4th round pick?

That's not at all what I was saying. Schneider can simultaneously be one of the top 3 GMs in the game while tending to pay top dollar in terms of trade compensation.

Of course the Lynch trade (which was actually for two picks) was a great deal, but if you objectively look at Schneider's trade history, he often overpays. The most obvious example was giving up a 1st, 3rd, and 7th for Percy. Irrespective of how he turned out as a player, at the time that was too much to give up for someone who immediately got a top-of-the market extension. It would have been much more reasonable if he had a couple cheap years of team control left on his deal.

Like DavidSeven mentioned, if you look at Schneider's record of draft day pick swaps he often ends up giving up more than the other team. My guess is that he's just not a hard line negotiator, which may be his one weakness as a GM. In comparison, Trent Baalke is not nearly the talent evaluator that Schneider is, but he tends to get plus-value when trading draft picks and negotiates very team-friendly extensions with low base salaries and lots of roster and performance bonuses.

Well put. Of course, Schneider being a rockstar evaluator trumps everything, but that's not the point being debated.

Sometimes the overspend works (Lockett?); sometimes it doesn't (Harvin, Whitehurst, Seisay?). Based on Schneider's success as an evaluator, McCray could very well be a key addition and well-worth the compensation. Irregardless of that, trading a Fifth Rounder for a Special Teams specialist (non-returner) is a lot in today's NFL.

And I agree, Baalke seems to outshine him in terms of negotiating draft capital in trades. He got free looks at Boldin and Stevie Johnson for almost nothing (Johnson didn't work out, but still worthwhile IMO), got a king's ransom for Alex Smith, always seems to be on the plus-side of draft-day swaps. Of course, he is like bizarro-John Schneider in that his evaluations/scouting sucks and has been proven to be terrible ever since McCloughan left SF.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Yeah JS is a horrible GM, right? Give your head a shake.

Remember when he acquired Marshawn Lynch for a 4th round pick?

That's not at all what I was saying. Schneider can simultaneously be one of the top 3 GMs in the game while tending to pay top dollar in terms of trade compensation.

Of course the Lynch trade (which was actually for two picks) was a great deal, but if you objectively look at Schneider's trade history, he often overpays. The most obvious example was giving up a 1st, 3rd, and 7th for Percy. Irrespective of how he turned out as a player, at the time that was too much to give up for someone who immediately got a top-of-the market extension. It would have been much more reasonable if he had a couple cheap years of team control left on his deal.

Like DavidSeven mentioned, if you look at Schneider's record of draft day pick swaps he often ends up giving up more than the other team. My guess is that he's just not a hard line negotiator, which may be his one weakness as a GM. In comparison, Trent Baalke is not nearly the talent evaluator that Schneider is, but he tends to get plus-value when trading draft picks and negotiates very team-friendly extensions with low base salaries and lots of roster and performance bonuses.

Well put. Of course, Schneider being a rockstar evaluator trumps everything, but that's not the point being debated.

Sometimes the overspend works (Lockett?); sometimes it doesn't (Harvin, Whitehurst, Seisay?). Based on Schneider's success as an evaluator, McCray could very well be a key addition and well-worth the compensation. Irregardless of that, trading a Fifth Rounder for a Special Teams specialist (non-returner) is a lot in today's NFL.

Is he not a Safety depth as well?

 

[ImTheScientist]

Yikes, 5th? Schneider always seems to overpay when trading.

Marshawn Lynch disagrees

 

[DavidSeven]

Is he not a Safety depth as well?

He is, but either way. Most teams aren't giving up a 5th for a backup safety or a returns blocker. That being said, if he springs Lockett for multiple TDs and ends up starting for an injured Earl Thomas, then I'm really not going to care about the draft pick. It just seems like maybe we could've argued them down to a 2016 7th/2017 6th, as that is generally the going rate for players that teams are willing to give up on unless they have some kind of "name" value and can generate bidding. Heck, most teams wouldn't give up more than a conditional pick for a player who's now been on four teams since 2012.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Is he not a Safety depth as well?

He is, but either way. Most teams aren't giving up a 5th for a backup safety or a returns blocker. That being said, if he springs Lockett from multiple TDs and ends up starting for an injured Earl Thomas, then I'm really not going to care anymore. It seems like maybe we could've argued them down to a 6/7, as that is generally the going rate for players that teams are willing to give up on. Could be that a backup safety was a hot commodity around the league, but that seems unlikely.

What if it was one of the players they had liked on their draft board in 2013 when he was drafted?

His draft profile: Not saying he's like Kam, but looks like someone we need to cover Tight-ends especially if Kam isn't playing this year.

"McCray is a big, physical safety from Arkansas State who could develop into a future starter in the NFL if put in the right scheme. A former high school quarterback, it is evident that McCray is able to key in on plays as a safety and make the pre-snap reads to put himself in a good position. He has the size to cover tight ends and the physicality to be a presence on the back end."

 

[hawkfan68]

Here's a scouting report on McCray. It's from April 2012 - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...phins-highlights-analysis-and-scouting-report

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Terrell made the roster as the backup FS, and he had some awful looking plays this preseason. I think this trade might have happened even if Kam were here, assuming that McCray can handle FS duties.

For as good as Seattle has been at finding Earl and Kam in 2010, their track record with safeties has been mediocre at best since then. We've dodged a bullet on a account of Earl and Kam staying healthy and almost never missing games.

I REALLY don't understand whey they kept Terrell over Ronald Martin. Seems like Pete is white knuckles on anyone who can play on special teams. I understand to an extent, but this is other-worldly obsessive. Same thing applies to Lockette over Kevin Smith.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Terrell made the roster as the backup FS, and he had some awful looking plays this preseason. I think this trade might have happened even if Kam were here, assuming that McCray can handle FS duties.

For as good as Seattle has been at finding Earl and Kam in 2010, their track record with safeties has been mediocre at best since then. We've dodged a bullet on a account of Earl and Kam staying healthy and almost never missing games.

I REALLY don't understand whey they kept Terrell over Ronald Martin. Seems like Pete is white knuckles on anyone who can play on special teams. I understand to an extent, but this is other-worldly obsessive. Same thing applies to Lockette over Kevin Smith.

I'm wondering though if it has to do with Tyler Lockett proving enough that he can be a WR and Returner all in one, and Ricardo can still be the gunner and our 5th-6th WR option. With that said they had to think do we keep one of our best gunner or do you keep another WR and take some snaps away from a very good one in Tyler Lockett? Remember Lane was our other best gunner and he's going to gone for a bit, so they probably felt we needed to keep Ricardo.