"Holdout" news of Earl Thomas

[Sun Tzu]

How is Cover 3 not a single high safety? Earl's role is to be an eraser in our system, it's hard to judge by production because his value is about the plays he takes away.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... arl-thomas

Most of the work Thomas does goes unseen because he lines up off the screen on regular broadcasts. When he executes his job as designed, the ball is unlikely to be thrown in his direction. Therefore, unlike a pass rusher or literally any offensive skill position player, Thomas' best plays don't become highlights. His best plays prevent the offense from getting their own highlights.

The article explains Thomas' value in our system and why he's arguably the best in the game at his position. I don't think you can judge what he does fully by interceptions, PBUs, and tackles. Shoot, one of the relatively few times he was in cover 2 this year, he pick sixed Watson. Different system.

Great article. Anyone who thinks Earl can be adequately replaced by a guy like McDougald should read it. Hell, anyone who has an opinion on Earl one way or another should read it.

Pete Carroll anchors his coverages off of Thomas the way an NBA team would off of a shot-blocking 7-foot center. Thomas is not only expected to dominate in his assignments, he is expected to dominate while executing the toughest assignments on the field. With Sherman shutting down the receiver to one side and Thomas covering more ground than anyone else on the field, the assignments for every other player on the defense become easier. The field is tightened and defenders can afford to be more aggressive because they know Thomas will clean up for them if they are beaten. "That's a big emphasis. That's what we ask him to take care of – seams and posts," assistant coach Rocky Seto told Kapadia about the importance of Thomas' range. "And any underneath routes or runs that get out, to make those tackles. He's a critical player to eliminating explosive plays. If a slant route or a little dive play gets out, he has to get the guy down."

This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here.

There's nothing special that the Seahawks do with coverages 1 through 3. I remember this board trying to "decipher" this "new" Seahawks defense once upon a time and it was hilarious. These coverages are as old as Pete.

The lone really "new" thing we use is the bear front from time to time. It's not new because Buddy Ryan started doing it in the 80s aka Da Bears, but that front doesn't really have any bearing on coverages.

I'm sorry, but this stuff is like someone learning math or some school subject. These are well established standards with a little bit of history.

I don't think the highlighted is accurate. The new thing that Pete used was a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel, and the step-kick technique. In addition, due to the personnel involved, Pete's bear front was/is much different from the original Buddy Ryan bear front.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

What would Belichick do?

Trade him for multiple draft picks and draft his replacement.

His replacement isn't coming in the 2018 draft. That I can tell you.

Does this statement come from the belief that you can predict the future? Or, the equally misguided belief that stating an opinion as fact in some way lends strength or credibility to the opinion?
I could respect, and perhaps even agree with, the above post if it were stated as an opinion with at least an attempt to support the opinion with some evidence, but, in my opinion, emphatically stating opinion as fact does nothing more than undermine all credibility of the post and poster.

It comes from general opinion on the upcoming draft class at that position.

I've made that statement often enough that most posters have probably already seen it from me recently. Ergo, I felt no overriding need to expound.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Nobody here wants Earl gone. No safety available out there can replace what Earl is doing for the Seahawks. The question is that if Earl is asking too high of a price and we can’t give it to him one reason or another, then maybe it’s time to trade him for a high draft pick or two if somebody want him. Keeping him but not signing him and let him walk in free agency without getting anything in return would not be a very good biz deciding, would it?

Have you read this thread at all, lots of folks here want him gone.
A lot of peeps in here acting like jilted lovers. Lots of over-reaction.

Lock him up for a few more years. Make your cap cute elsewhere.

 

[vin.couve12]

How is Cover 3 not a single high safety? Earl's role is to be an eraser in our system, it's hard to judge by production because his value is about the plays he takes away.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... arl-thomas



The article explains Thomas' value in our system and why he's arguably the best in the game at his position. I don't think you can judge what he does fully by interceptions, PBUs, and tackles. Shoot, one of the relatively few times he was in cover 2 this year, he pick sixed Watson. Different system.

Great article. Anyone who thinks Earl can be adequately replaced by a guy like McDougald should read it. Hell, anyone who has an opinion on Earl one way or another should read it.

Pete Carroll anchors his coverages off of Thomas the way an NBA team would off of a shot-blocking 7-foot center. Thomas is not only expected to dominate in his assignments, he is expected to dominate while executing the toughest assignments on the field. With Sherman shutting down the receiver to one side and Thomas covering more ground than anyone else on the field, the assignments for every other player on the defense become easier. The field is tightened and defenders can afford to be more aggressive because they know Thomas will clean up for them if they are beaten. "That's a big emphasis. That's what we ask him to take care of – seams and posts," assistant coach Rocky Seto told Kapadia about the importance of Thomas' range. "And any underneath routes or runs that get out, to make those tackles. He's a critical player to eliminating explosive plays. If a slant route or a little dive play gets out, he has to get the guy down."

This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here.

There's nothing special that the Seahawks do with coverages 1 through 3. I remember this board trying to "decipher" this "new" Seahawks defense once upon a time and it was hilarious. These coverages are as old as Pete.

The lone really "new" thing we use is the bear front from time to time. It's not new because Buddy Ryan started doing it in the 80s aka Da Bears, but that front doesn't really have any bearing on coverages.

I'm sorry, but this stuff is like someone learning math or some school subject. These are well established standards with a little bit of history.

I don't think the highlighted is accurate. The new thing that Pete used was a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel, and the step-kick technique. In addition, due to the personnel involved, Pete's bear front was/is much different from the original Buddy Ryan bear front. Perhaps you should not be insulting the football IQ of other posters or implying that other posters need to educate themselves, you know...because of that whole glass house thing.

Not new either. It's just a 4-3 under front. A good example would be to go back and watch early 90s Cowboys with Charles Haley. 4-3 has a few variations and Under is one of them. Step kick isn't new either.

 

[vin.couve12]

That "bear front" is a 46, btw. Don't know who started calling it the bear front, but that's not really what it is.

I think this statement is a little misleading. Although the bear front was referred to as 46, it was not due to the personal (i.e. 4 linemen and 6 linebackers), it was due to the jersey number of one player (I can't remember who it was). The original "bear front" was basically a 4-3 with 2 of the linebackers up on the line of scrimmage, creating a 6 man line, and a safety in the box. Formation wise, it was a 6-2 with 4-3 personnel.
The Seahawks bear front was/is much different. The Seahawks, under Pete, run it with Pete's patented 3-4/4-3 hybrid personnel and the result was 3-4/4-3 personnel in a 5-3 or 5-2 front. They bumped the strong-side end (Red Bryant) inside and brought the SAM up to the line to create a 5 man front, rather than the traditional 6 man front of the original bear front. Therefore, calling the Seahawks bear front a 46 is not technically accurate, in my opinion.

Check out what a 4-3 Under is. Your SLB is already lined up tight off the hip of. Your strong side end.

Where the Hawks would sometimes varry is bringing Kam up to the line as the edge player and they do that in both under and over fronts. The result is till the same though whether you have Wright swing over or have Kam do it. Kam is the more forceful edge pkayer so he often did it and KJ would stay in that 46 spot, which is funcrionally a WLB anyway so it fits.

You did get the 46 naming right.

I see where you're going with this, as a root of where you're going though, start with the 4-3 Under. That's what you're talking about when you say 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. Basically you take 3-4 "even" two gap system and shift your line strong side slightly to "odd" one gap system. 46 or bear is really just a shift from an under with your 1 tech and 5 tech since your 3 tech is already lined up where he would be at the 3. Kam is the oddity because he's a more powerful pkayer than KJ so he would often play that extra edge LB. Swap two roles and it's still the same thing.

We started running more over fronts in 2014 as well so you might want to check that out too.

 

[rcaido]

Earl is a core player pay him. He hasn't shown any decline. Let this drama end now.

 

[chris98251]

You mean the drama that Earl is using in the media two days in a row now to promote himself?

 

[ImTheScientist]

Nobody here wants Earl gone. No safety available out there can replace what Earl is doing for the Seahawks. The question is that if Earl is asking too high of a price and we can’t give it to him one reason or another, then maybe it’s time to trade him for a high draft pick or two if somebody want him. Keeping him but not signing him and let him walk in free agency without getting anything in return would not be a very good biz deciding, would it?

If he isn’t willing to play under his contract I want him gone.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Nobody here wants Earl gone. No safety available out there can replace what Earl is doing for the Seahawks. The question is that if Earl is asking too high of a price and we can’t give it to him one reason or another, then maybe it’s time to trade him for a high draft pick or two if somebody want him. Keeping him but not signing him and let him walk in free agency without getting anything in return would not be a very good biz deciding, would it?

If he isn’t willing to play under his contract I want him gone.

:ditto:

 

[vin.couve12]

Wait, was that 2014 or 2015 when we got Ruben? Anyway, thats when we started mixing in more Over fronts with the Under.

This is all off topic though. The Seahawks aren't inventing anything here and the defense isn't hinged on any one player. Wagner is the best player on the team and even he doesn't dictate that we go away from cover 3, cover 1, under and over fronts or whatever.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Great article. Anyone who thinks Earl can be adequately replaced by a guy like McDougald should read it. Hell, anyone who has an opinion on Earl one way or another should read it.

This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here.

There's nothing special that the Seahawks do with coverages 1 through 3. I remember this board trying to "decipher" this "new" Seahawks defense once upon a time and it was hilarious. These coverages are as old as Pete.

The lone really "new" thing we use is the bear front from time to time. It's not new because Buddy Ryan started doing it in the 80s aka Da Bears, but that front doesn't really have any bearing on coverages.

I'm sorry, but this stuff is like someone learning math or some school subject. These are well established standards with a little bit of history.

I don't think the highlighted is accurate. The new thing that Pete used was a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel, and the step-kick technique. In addition, due to the personnel involved, Pete's bear front was/is much different from the original Buddy Ryan bear front. Perhaps you should not be insulting the football IQ of other posters or implying that other posters need to educate themselves, you know...because of that whole glass house thing.

Not new either. It's just a 4-3 under front. A good example would be to go back and watch early 90s Cowboys with Charles Haley. 4-3 has a few variations and Under is one of them. Step kick isn't new either.

Actually, Jimmy Johnson brought his 4-3 over with him from the University Miami to the cowboys (I believe the Johnson version was refered to as a 4-3 slide by some), not a 4-3 under (the team may have played a 4-3 under from time to time just as the Hawks have played both an under and an over front, but the over was the base defense of those Cowboys teams). In addition, Johnson and the Cowboys ran the 4-3 using a 1-gap technique for all down linemen. The emphasis was on speed and getting up-field quickly. The biggest difference between the Pete Carroll 4-3 under and the standard 4-3 under, is that Pete prefers to use hybrid personnel and a combination of 1-gap and 2-gap techniques with his down linemen. In general the 4-3 (under and over) is a 1-gap scheme. The Johnson scheme, the one you are referring to with your Cowboys comment, was night and day to what the Seahawks want to run under Pete.
You are not going deep enough with your assessment. There is much more to a defensive front than simply is it a 4-3 under, a 4-3 over, a 3-4, a bear, etc? There is also much more to coverage schemes than is it cover 3, cover 2, etc?There are subtle nuances to each and a variety of hybrids or variations. I thought your comment to the posts from A-dog and adeltaY, "This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here.", was dismissive of valid points and came off as an attempt at superiority. How about you lay off that sort of thing?

 

[Sun Tzu]

That "bear front" is a 46, btw. Don't know who started calling it the bear front, but that's not really what it is.

I think this statement is a little misleading. Although the bear front was referred to as 46, it was not due to the personal (i.e. 4 linemen and 6 linebackers), it was due to the jersey number of one player (I can't remember who it was). The original "bear front" was basically a 4-3 with 2 of the linebackers up on the line of scrimmage, creating a 6 man line, and a safety in the box. Formation wise, it was a 6-2 with 4-3 personnel.
The Seahawks bear front was/is much different. The Seahawks, under Pete, run it with Pete's patented 3-4/4-3 hybrid personnel and the result was 3-4/4-3 personnel in a 5-3 or 5-2 front. They bumped the strong-side end (Red Bryant) inside and brought the SAM up to the line to create a 5 man front, rather than the traditional 6 man front of the original bear front. Therefore, calling the Seahawks bear front a 46 is not technically accurate, in my opinion.

Check out what a 4-3 Under is. Your SLB is already lined up tight off the hip of. Your strong side end.

Where the Hawks would sometimes varry is bringing Kam up to the line as the edge player and they do that in both under and over fronts. The result is till the same though whether you have Wright swing over or have Kam do it. Kam is the more forceful edge pkayer so he often did it and KJ would stay in that 46 spot, which is funcrionally a WLB anyway so it fits.

You did get the 46 naming right.

I see where you're going with this, as a root of where you're going though, start with the 4-3 Under. That's what you're talking about when you say 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. Basically you take 3-4 "even" two gap system and shift your line strong side slightly to "odd" one gap system. 46 or bear is really just a shift from an under with your 1 tech and 5 tech since your 3 tech is already lined up where he would be at the 3. Kam is the oddity because he's a more powerful pkayer than KJ so he would often play that extra edge LB. Swap two roles and it's still the same thing.

We started running more over fronts in 2014 as well so you might want to check that out too.

I am fairly certain that most on here know what a 4-3 under and over is, or as you would say, "This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here."
As to your novice description, I see google in full force. You must have read an article about the Seahawks 4-3 under and assumed all 4-3 unders are just like that. Not the case. Just because the Pete Carroll 4-3 under uses 3-4 personnel doesn't mean they all do. Just because Pete's 4-3 under uses a combination of 1 and 2 gap doesn't mean they all do. As I said in my previous post, you are only going surface level here.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

That "bear front" is a 46, btw. Don't know who started calling it the bear front, but that's not really what it is.

I think this statement is a little misleading. Although the bear front was referred to as 46, it was not due to the personal (i.e. 4 linemen and 6 linebackers), it was due to the jersey number of one player (I can't remember who it was). The original "bear front" was basically a 4-3 with 2 of the linebackers up on the line of scrimmage, creating a 6 man line, and a safety in the box. Formation wise, it was a 6-2 with 4-3 personnel.
The Seahawks bear front was/is much different. The Seahawks, under Pete, run it with Pete's patented 3-4/4-3 hybrid personnel and the result was 3-4/4-3 personnel in a 5-3 or 5-2 front. They bumped the strong-side end (Red Bryant) inside and brought the SAM up to the line to create a 5 man front, rather than the traditional 6 man front of the original bear front. Therefore, calling the Seahawks bear front a 46 is not technically accurate, in my opinion.

Check out what a 4-3 Under is. Your SLB is already lined up tight off the hip of. Your strong side end.

Where the Hawks would sometimes varry is bringing Kam up to the line as the edge player and they do that in both under and over fronts. The result is till the same though whether you have Wright swing over or have Kam do it. Kam is the more forceful edge pkayer so he often did it and KJ would stay in that 46 spot, which is funcrionally a WLB anyway so it fits.

You did get the 46 naming right.

I see where you're going with this, as a root of where you're going though, start with the 4-3 Under. That's what you're talking about when you say 4-3 with 3-4 personnel. Basically you take 3-4 "even" two gap system and shift your line strong side slightly to "odd" one gap system. 46 or bear is really just a shift from an under with your 1 tech and 5 tech since your 3 tech is already lined up where he would be at the 3. Kam is the oddity because he's a more powerful pkayer than KJ so he would often play that extra edge LB. Swap two roles and it's still the same thing.

We started running more over fronts in 2014 as well so you might want to check that out too.

I am fairly certain that most on here know what a 4-3 under and over is, or as you would say, "This might be some sort of revelation for some, but this is very standard stuff here."
As to your novice description, I see google in full force. You must have read an article about the Seahawks 4-3 under and assumed all 4-3 unders are just like that. Not the case. Just because the Pete Carroll 4-3 under uses 3-4 personnel doesn't mean they all do. Just because Pete's 4-3 under uses a combination of 1 and 2 gap doesn't mean they all do. As I said in my previous post, you are not going deep enough.

Sioux? Is that you? Are you back?

 

[rcaido]

Its his final season contract, he should get an extension if not at least trade him to a team that can give him that. If a player has been balling out since he's been in the organization give him that at least. Im sure that's what they would do for Wilson next season.

 

[misfit]

Its his final season contract, he should get an extension if not at least trade him to a team that can give him that. If a player has been balling out since he's been in the organization give him that at least. Im sure that's what they would do for Wilson next season.

they would not trade Russell

 

[adeltaY]

Wait, was that 2014 or 2015 when we got Ruben? Anyway, thats when we started mixing in more Over fronts with the Under.

This is all off topic though. The Seahawks aren't inventing anything here and the defense isn't hinged on any one player. Wagner is the best player on the team and even he doesn't dictate that we go away from cover 3, cover 1, under and over fronts or whatever.

To be clear you're disagreeing with the article and the film analysis in it that says Earl is very important to the defence Pete Carroll runs? Also the numbers that showed we were giving up much more production through the deep middle when he got hurt.

Whether it's new, old, tweaked is all irrelevant to the discussion about Earl Thomas' worth to the defense. By the way, Earl can be crucial to the defense and Bobby Wagner can still be the best player. It's not mutually exclusive.

 

[vin.couve12]

Wait, was that 2014 or 2015 when we got Ruben? Anyway, thats when we started mixing in more Over fronts with the Under.

This is all off topic though. The Seahawks aren't inventing anything here and the defense isn't hinged on any one player. Wagner is the best player on the team and even he doesn't dictate that we go away from cover 3, cover 1, under and over fronts or whatever.

To be clear you're disagreeing with the article and the film analysis in it that says Earl is very important to the defence Pete Carroll runs? Also the numbers that showed we were giving up much more production through the deep middle when he got hurt.

Whether it's new, old, tweaked is all irrelevant to the discussion about Earl Thomas' worth to the defense. By the way, Earl can be crucial to the defense and Bobby Wagner can still be the best player. It's not mutually exclusive.

Earl Thomas doesn't "allow" things in this defense outside of just doing his job. He himself is on record a month ago after the Rams game stating that all they need to do is have everyone do their jobs.

Every DC we've ever had since Pete got here has preached everyone doing their jobs. Screamed it all of them in some cases.

Earl is not some magical variance. It's a lie.

 

[vin.couve12]

Sun tsu, if you know what an under is then call it that instead of make beleive names to make peoplr think Pete invented it.

I know our variances and you are rhe one who broke the 46 down to something static. YOU did that, not me. I elaborated.

 

[A-Dog]

Earl Thomas doesn't "allow" things in this defense outside of just doing his job. He himself is on record a month ago after the Rams game stating that all they need to do is have everyone do their jobs.

Every DC we've ever had since Pete got here has preached everyone doing their jobs. Screamed it all of them in some cases.

Earl is not some magical variance. It's a lie.

Again you are trying to distract from the point.

Of course "all Earl has to do is do his job." No one's arguing that.

The point is, and yes I'm going to yell it,

EARL'S JOB IS HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE'S BECAUSE OF WHAT PETE AND THE DC ASK OF HIM, AND HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DO IT. HE HAS A UNIQUE SKILLSET THAT ALLOWS THE TEAM TO USE HIM DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY WOULD WITH OTHER FREE SAFETIES. IF THEY PUT MCDOUGALD IN THERE THEY WOULD HAVE TO SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER THE DEFENSE AND THEY WOULDN'T ASK MCDOUGALD TO DO WHAT THEY ASK OF EARL.

 

[vin.couve12]

Earl Thomas doesn't "allow" things in this defense outside of just doing his job. He himself is on record a month ago after the Rams game stating that all they need to do is have everyone do their jobs.

Every DC we've ever had since Pete got here has preached everyone doing their jobs. Screamed it all of them in some cases.

Earl is not some magical variance. It's a lie.

Again you are trying to distract from the point.

Of course "all Earl has to do is do his job." No one's arguing that.

The point is, and yes I'm going to yell it,

EARL'S JOB IS HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE'S BECAUSE OF WHAT PETE AND THE DC ASK OF HIM, AND HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DO IT. HE HAS A UNIQUE SKILLSET THAT ALLOWS THE TEAM TO USE HIM DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY WOULD WITH OTHER FREE SAFETIES. IF THEY PUT MCDOUGALD IN THERE THEY WOULD HAVE TO SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER THE DEFENSE AND THEY WOULDN'T ASK MCDOUGALD TO DO WHAT THEY ASK OF EARL.

No. Earl is not a unicorn...or even a HoF player.