Fire Bevell

[mrt144]

Fire Bevell threads are common on .NET but Tom Cable is also a problem. I am tired of his DL projects and his approach to find guys that would fight for/with him in the back alleys instead of finding/coaching actual linemen that can play in the NFL. A mobile QB & one of the best RB in the league make Cable look better than what he is.

This is essentially true for all offensive lines though - a great QB or RB can hide the deficiencies of the O line so long as they keep performing.

Cable's lines have always been average to bad at pass blocking. He is known for running the ball and his best years (statistically) were in Atlanta & Seattle with Vick & Wilson.

But your point is a truism to the sport of football. Winning is a derivative of several factors performing together and people tend not to look at how the sausage is made if it tastes good. Do you think JS is so in love with Cable's abilities that he doesn't even attempt to rectify the situation with personnel moves? Either Cable is doing what he can with what he has (and that's not very good) or JS is delusional about Cable's ability to turn trash into diamonds.

 

[400WattHPSHawk]

Fire Bevell threads are common on .NET but Tom Cable is also a problem. I am tired of his DL projects and his approach to find guys that would fight for/with him in the back alleys instead of finding/coaching actual linemen that can play in the NFL. A mobile QB & one of the best RB in the league make Cable look better than what he is.

I agree completely. Kinda sucks in a country with 300+ million people in it, when it comes our turn to pick all the offensive linemen are gone and we have to convert a Dlineman.

 

[TwistedHusky]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

What plays, exactly, would be immediately successful behind this o-line?

Plays with designed hot routes, checkdowns, dumpoffs. That sort of thing.

Far too many plays are without those. Instead the play design sends four or five guys downfield and expects the line to block for three seconds when Bevell knows they can't. He's exacerbating the problem.

And defenses know it. They're blitzing all day. They're not afraid of Wilson beating the blitz because they know Bevell isn't giving him the options to do it. And after today, nobody will be afraid of the running game either.

Next week vs. Cincy, pay special attention to how often they send a fifth guy. Usually our OL holds up just fine when they send only four. Send in a fifth and I can almost guarantee what the play will look like.

THIS......listen, the offensive line IS A PROBLEM....but an adequate Offensive Coordinator is going to adjust to the line problems and put their offense in a position to succeed with the tools that are available. And Bevell doesn't seem make those adjustments

So if i look at the all-22, i will never see a hot route, checkdown or dumpoff available on any of Detroits blitzes?

Perhaps not all. But far too few of them.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I think Bevell actually called a good game last night all things considered. He ran bubbles to Lockett. I loved the fake screen to Lockett and throw back to Jackson.

This offensive line is a mess though. It's hard to call plays when you have no run blocking, no pass blocking, etc.

And :lol: at calling the Lions the worst team in the league. They're 0-4 and could just as easily be 3-1.

 

[minormillikin]

I think Cable should start calling and designing the plays, since he's the only one who could possibly dream up an offense to go with his offensive line.

 

[Basis4day]

Perhaps not all. But far too few of them.

It's an important distinction. If they're available in the play, then that isn't on Bevell. It's on execution.

 

[Basis4day]

I think Cable should start calling and designing the plays, since he's the only one who could possibly dream up an offense to go with his offensive line.

Cable is the architect of the offense as has been mentioned by the beat writers.

 

[Basis4day]

So, Wilson fumbling is Bevell's fault. It was the play call, and he probably instructed Russell to fumble it on the sideline. Or maybe he didn't coach Wilson on ball security before that play. Whatever works for you.

I can't even call out one guy for getting blown up in pass protection. Everyone either whiffed or got blown up at least once. There were DLmen getting IMMEDIATE pressure right up the A gap without even stunting. You should NEVER have that. Obviously, that's a Bevell thing because the OL is his baby, right ?

Seriously, this is getting patently ridiculous.

No one is blaming RW's fumbles on Bevell, no one. Tired of these strawmen arguements being thrown up the DB fans.

No, but they are blaming the playcall for allowing Wilson to get hit, which led to the fumble.

 

[justafan]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

The trash from diamonds argument might hold water except he is choosing the trash to start over players he and JS liked in the draft.

Why cant he turn a second round tackle into a decent guard,why not turn his 4th round players like Poole and Glow into serviceable starters instead of using college TEs or DL.

It isnt solving problems he is creating the problems.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

I was at work so this is a serious question......how many screens to Rawls or Fred Jack (not bubble screens) did Seattle run last night? As Montana mentioned there are nowhere near enough hot routes, etc. to counteract the blitz. Another way to slow down a blitz is screen passes. I've long maintained the Hawks don't run enough of those either.

 

[mrt144]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

The trash from diamonds argument might hold water except he is choosing the trash to start over players he and JS liked in the draft.

Why cant he turn a second round tackle into a decent guard,why not turn his 4th round players like Poole and Glow into serviceable starters instead of using college TEs or DL.

It isnt solving problems he is creating the problems.

If the entire management structure is giving Cable so much leeway, that needs to change, much less Cable himself.

Good saying:

If you owe the bank a million dollars it's your problem, if you owe the bank a billion dollars it's their problem. The size of the problem and Cable's 'ability' to pick his projects speaks more about organizational dysfunction than just his own inability to deliver on the projects.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I was at work so this is a serious question......how many screens to Rawls or Fred Jack (not bubble screens) did Seattle run last night? As Montana mentioned there are nowhere near enough hot routes, etc. to counteract the blitz. Another way to slow down a blitz is screen passes. I've long maintained the Hawks don't run enough of those either.

They ran a few screens, one of them was beautiful .. was a fake screen to Lockett then throw back to Jackson.. but even then Russ nearly was decapitated on it.

At this point I want to see what Lewis and Glowinski offer on this OL over Nowak and Britt. Britt's play has been embarrassing since the preseason ended. I was excited he'd blossom into our answer at LG but he's steadily regressed as the season has gone on.

 

[kf3339]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

This is the truest comment about our whole offensive system I have seen to date. And I put this all not on Cable or even Bevell. The man who brought them in and kept them this long has to take the blame, and that man in PC. If he can't see it by now then he is as much if not more to blame than them.

 

[justafan]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

The trash from diamonds argument might hold water except he is choosing the trash to start over players he and JS liked in the draft.

Why cant he turn a second round tackle into a decent guard,why not turn his 4th round players like Poole and Glow into serviceable starters instead of using college TEs or DL.

It isnt solving problems he is creating the problems.

If the entire management structure is giving Cable so much leeway, that needs to change, much less Cable himself.

Good saying:

If you owe the bank a million dollars it's your problem, if you owe the bank a billion dollars it's their problem. The size of the problem and Cable's 'ability' to pick his projects speaks more about organizational dysfunction than just his own inability to deliver on the projects.

Agreed.
JS and Pete arent going anywhere.You cant fire the whole line.The buck stops at Cable for not getting it to work.
As much as I complained about Carp and Breno,what I wouldnt give to have those two back.

 

[Optimus25]

What plays, exactly, would be immediately successful behind this o-line?

Plays with designed hot routes, checkdowns, dumpoffs. That sort of thing.

Far too many plays are without those. Instead the play design sends four or five guys downfield and expects the line to block for three seconds when Bevell knows they can't. He's exacerbating the problem.

And defenses know it. They're blitzing all day. They're not afraid of Wilson beating the blitz because they know Bevell isn't giving him the options to do it. And after today, nobody will be afraid of the running game either.

Next week vs. Cincy, pay special attention to how often they send a fifth guy. Usually our OL holds up just fine when they send only four. Send in a fifth and I can almost guarantee what the play will look like.

THIS......listen, the offensive line IS A PROBLEM....but an adequate Offensive Coordinator is going to adjust to the line problems and put their offense in a position to succeed with the tools that are available. And Bevell doesn't seem make those adjustments

So if i look at the all-22, i will never see a hot route, checkdown or dumpoff available on any of Detroits blitzes?

Well. What you certainly won't see is a three step drop. Which could completely counter heavy blitzing and protect Russ. It's either bubble or play action drop with bevell, or shotgun drop. Jeesh. I swear the only people left actually defending bevell have to be relatives.

 

[mrt144]

"Turning trash into diamonds" is possible.

The problem is the process has costs.

And the upside requires patience, which is a problem if you have contracts that expire.

Look at Sweezy. Sweezy can be a very good if not dominant guard because of his athletic ability, aggression and physicality. But being green, he is going to make mistakes. That isn't a problem when you have other decent OL around you because they compensate for that and the gains offset the mistakes. Eventually you make less and then you start producing net positive benefits.

But what happens when 1/2 the line is reclamation? Assume you make 6-8 big mistakes in a game, that probably translates into 2-3 negative plays. You can live with that. But with 4 players doing the same thing? Suddenly we are at 30+ mistakes and because of the snowball effect, the negative plays turn from 2-3 for every 6-8 mistakes to 3-4 (or 4-5!). Now we are looking at 15+ bad plays, which is enough to account for drive killing plays (since by % that means at least 30% of those are 3rd downs right?) So you lose at least 4 drives to this.

Worse, because the players start worrying about the mistakes, they start dialing back - which removes the very aggression + physicality you have them there for in the first place.

Clearly Bevell is stuck with what he has, but then trying to make a bunch of lefts to make a right isn't helping. Use your best players to win games, throw to the good receivers instead of making them decoys (or worse), like another poster pointed out : call drag routes, hots and dumpoffs ). orl quick developing plays like slants.

But anything other than a 3 step drop is going to get Wilson hit, since he gets pressured in at least half the snaps he takes.

All of this is well known by everyone but our 32 point IQ OC, who I honestly consider the stupidest person in the stadium. Not even sure how he made it this far in his career but clearly a Peter Principle exhibit if ever there was one. At some point, this team needs the OC to do more than just be another obstacle our QB, RB and Defense have to overcome to win.

The trash from diamonds argument might hold water except he is choosing the trash to start over players he and JS liked in the draft.

Why cant he turn a second round tackle into a decent guard,why not turn his 4th round players like Poole and Glow into serviceable starters instead of using college TEs or DL.

It isnt solving problems he is creating the problems.

If the entire management structure is giving Cable so much leeway, that needs to change, much less Cable himself.

Good saying:

If you owe the bank a million dollars it's your problem, if you owe the bank a billion dollars it's their problem. The size of the problem and Cable's 'ability' to pick his projects speaks more about organizational dysfunction than just his own inability to deliver on the projects.

Agreed.
JS and Pete arent going anywhere.You cant fire the whole line.The buck stops at Cable for not getting it to work.
As much as I complained about Carp and Breno,what I wouldnt give to have those two back.

And the thing that sucks is that I don't think replacing Cable is going to solve the issue if there isn't a commitment to OL picks and free agents. A positional coach can only do so much despite how much desire or talent he has to make it work.

 

[justafan]

I have never been one to yell fire the coach,even in the Mora days but in this case i think its time.
I cant think of a position coach in Hawks history I have wanted gone more than Cable.

 

[gowazzu02]

So if i look at the all-22, i will never see a hot route, checkdown or dumpoff available on any of Detroits blitzes?[/quote]

Well. What you certainly won't see is a three step drop. Which could completely counter heavy blitzing and protect Russ. It's either bubble or play action drop with bevell, or shotgun drop. Jeesh. I swear the only people left actually defending bevell have to be relatives.[/quote]


The 3 step drop would be nice,,,, BUT our qb is so damn short he can't see the middle of the field on said 3 step drop.

So he needs to start out in the gun and then drop......

 

[lobohawk]

What plays, exactly, would be immediately successful behind this o-line?

Plays with designed hot routes, checkdowns, dumpoffs. That sort of thing.

Far too many plays are without those. Instead the play design sends four or five guys downfield and expects the line to block for three seconds when Bevell knows they can't. He's exacerbating the problem.

And defenses know it. They're blitzing all day. They're not afraid of Wilson beating the blitz because they know Bevell isn't giving him the options to do it. And after today, nobody will be afraid of the running game either.

Next week vs. Cincy, pay special attention to how often they send a fifth guy. Usually our OL holds up just fine when they send only four. Send in a fifth and I can almost guarantee what the play will look like.

THIS......listen, the offensive line IS A PROBLEM....but an adequate Offensive Coordinator is going to adjust to the line problems and put their offense in a position to succeed with the tools that are available. And Bevell doesn't seem make those adjustments

This x100. Everyone knows the OL is an issue. By now, Pete and Bevell should know Wilson's strength, etc. We know what the WRs are. And so on......

It's up to the coaching staff to find a way to maximize the strengths and hide the weaknesses. Unfortunately, the Offense doesn't seem to do this very well. Keeps calling plays that the OL can't handle.