Can Russel Wilson become an Elite pocket passer?

[Anthony!]

You named 3 games and 8 comebacks if you can go on and on, please name them, and all those comebacks are not solely on him and I'm not saying it has to be, but how much was he a factor in all of them? You also have to take things into context, were we possibly losing early possibly because of his play and our D kept us in the game and then Wilson made a final drive that was well but played poorly through out the game or was it the D that kept giving up points and Wilson was dueling it out scoring a ton? I can't say for certain one thing or another. Also like I said, he is incredibly efficient (high rating) and he is definitely a good pocket passer, but at times he's been a bit off his game this year (both STL,2nd NO game,both SF,HOU,NYG,2nd ARZ game). You can blame it on the OLine or give credit to their defenses, but it's the same thing when you judge another QB playing our defense. Passing yards =/= elite, but it gives a little bit of an indication how the offensive is rolling and it's not a sole way to judge someone, but that along with the eye test seems like Wilson is just leaving a little bit more to be desired. I'm not saying we're winning in spite of him and he definitely contributes to wins obviously, but I'm just not sure we could consistently rely on him if our defense wasn't so good AS OF RIGHT NOW. I hope he does that next step and it definitely looks like he will, but I just don't know if he is that good right now. Some of you guys take it as such a slight to Wilson if we don't call him elite even though I said he was a tier right under elite. Dude is in his second year and almost as good as some of the GOAT which is amazing in itself. I just want to see him be able to do it little longer and see him do it after his big pay day when he pretty much has to always take over.

You see I do not have to name more I named enough, and you still have nothing to support you other than yards, I showed how Rw has outplayed Brady, played as well as Brees and those are 2 of your so called elite. As to we are possible loosing early because of his play, really even you cannot be that much of a hater. Basically you have nothing but what you want and think while the rest of us have facts. So tell you what believe what you want, don't let the facts get in the way. The rest of us in the real world will know he is already Elite and will get better.

i don't understand how people can use stats as if it proves everything there is to know, no questions asked. your using stats to make an A+B=C argument which is never the case. Example Eli has more rings than Peyton therefore Eli>peyton...

I could look at stats on paper and consider Denvers offensive line to be best in the league. Stats make very average running backs like Knowshown Moreno seem like hes as good as a running back as marshawn lynch. I laugh everytime i hear him reffered to as a "weapon". Even Eric decker who i consider a very midtier receiver benefits from stat inflation.

a lot of Peyton TD's and yards this season look so good on paper. If you see him play a good chunk of those yards are from screens and short throws turned into 40 yard gains from DT. One might conclude from stats that he has the best and most accurate arm in the NFL.

Now by no means am i saying russell is feasting on stat inflation, but he still has not proven anything being a 2nd year quarterback and that is where we don't see eye to eye. You can say he has a ring which is a phenomenal accomplishment, but flacco has a ring and hes not a great QB. Kapernick almost had a ring and hes awful. Your making a case that some of us are just simply choosing to ignore stats and knock all his accomplishments because he plays for a better team. you can only judge how good someone is from actually watching them and then analyzing stats. I've seen Joe montana's stats on paper, but i could never make an argument of him being the greatest QB of all time like some can, because i didn't grow up in that era and have little knowledge of how he played. For all i know hes success was probably tied to Jerry rice but hey i dont know.

I guess we are in a way arguing semantics here because from my point of view ii haven't seen "elitness" from russell yet. To me he has not been tested like a lot of other QB's have (Even some of the younger crowd QBs like Cam have been tested more than Russel has). At the end of the day he is a great QB, but he has still proven nothing for me to consider him elite. He has proven everything that he is capable of being seattle's franchise QB.

Take Sherman and Peterson for example, the two best CBs in the league. Sherman is asked to shut down one side of the field and plays with the best secondary ever assembled in NFL history. He is not asked to do as much as Peterson ie shadow the number one. Its unfair to Peterson to call Sherman the best until sherman is asked to do as much as peterson, so we can judge them on a level playing field. But regardless of that, i would still consider sherman a MUCH better CB than peterson, and not because of Gawdy Pick V pass thrown stats. At the end of the day Sherman plays with sheer intelligence while Peterson plays with raw athleticism. This league has shown that intelligent player dominate for the most part. It shows on the field when each of them play and if i was a betting man i would always put my money on sherman having the longest most productive career out of these new era of CBs. I could not confidently do this with russell YET.

I do not think it is semantics at all, I think it is very simple if you look at what Rw has done so far you see an elite QB, but if you look for reasons not to want to see him as elite you can find reasons. The funny part is you can say that about every QBW in the league, but some of you only want to see it with RW. I also believe his height still plays in the back of some of the people minds, etc. You attempt to ignore the facts and stats is a normal argument for someone who is looking for an excuse to not believe or buy into a stance, That is fine but all it leaves you with is your opinion which means little, with out facts and stats to support it. According to facts, stats, and performance and the eye test Rw is as Elite as any QB in the league now.

 

[Tical21]

Russell isn't an elite pocket passer. You watch Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning and those guys when they are "on", and it is dissecting, in large chunks. Russell doesn't quite make his progressions fast enough to do that yet. That isn't a knock. I'm sure he is going to get there. Right now, he does enough other things so well that it doesn't matter. But he isn't the same type of surgeon those guys are. There were far too many times where Russell was at the line, and the defense comes forward, showing obvious blitz. Russell backs away, resets, clearly sees everything that is coming, knows the coverage, and still doesn't get rid of the ball and takes the sack. He still doesn't pull the trigger over the middle. This is all nitpicking, the kid is great, and is trending upward quickly, but there are just way too many holes, flaws, and stretches of subpar play for him to be considered a surgeon.

 

[blazen2392]

You named 3 games and 8 comebacks if you can go on and on, please name them, and all those comebacks are not solely on him and I'm not saying it has to be, but how much was he a factor in all of them? You also have to take things into context, were we possibly losing early possibly because of his play and our D kept us in the game and then Wilson made a final drive that was well but played poorly through out the game or was it the D that kept giving up points and Wilson was dueling it out scoring a ton? I can't say for certain one thing or another. Also like I said, he is incredibly efficient (high rating) and he is definitely a good pocket passer, but at times he's been a bit off his game this year (both STL,2nd NO game,both SF,HOU,NYG,2nd ARZ game). You can blame it on the OLine or give credit to their defenses, but it's the same thing when you judge another QB playing our defense. Passing yards =/= elite, but it gives a little bit of an indication how the offensive is rolling and it's not a sole way to judge someone, but that along with the eye test seems like Wilson is just leaving a little bit more to be desired. I'm not saying we're winning in spite of him and he definitely contributes to wins obviously, but I'm just not sure we could consistently rely on him if our defense wasn't so good AS OF RIGHT NOW. I hope he does that next step and it definitely looks like he will, but I just don't know if he is that good right now. Some of you guys take it as such a slight to Wilson if we don't call him elite even though I said he was a tier right under elite. Dude is in his second year and almost as good as some of the GOAT which is amazing in itself. I just want to see him be able to do it little longer and see him do it after his big pay day when he pretty much has to always take over.

You see I do not have to name more I named enough, and you still have nothing to support you other than yards, I showed how Rw has outplayed Brady, played as well as Brees and those are 2 of your so called elite. As to we are possible loosing early because of his play, really even you cannot be that much of a hater. Basically you have nothing but what you want and think while the rest of us have facts. So tell you what believe what you want, don't let the facts get in the way. The rest of us in the real world will know he is already Elite and will get better.

i don't understand how people can use stats as if it proves everything there is to know, no questions asked. your using stats to make an A+B=C argument which is never the case. Example Eli has more rings than Peyton therefore Eli>peyton...

I could look at stats on paper and consider Denvers offensive line to be best in the league. Stats make very average running backs like Knowshown Moreno seem like hes as good as a running back as marshawn lynch. I laugh everytime i hear him reffered to as a "weapon". Even Eric decker who i consider a very midtier receiver benefits from stat inflation.

a lot of Peyton TD's and yards this season look so good on paper. If you see him play a good chunk of those yards are from screens and short throws turned into 40 yard gains from DT. One might conclude from stats that he has the best and most accurate arm in the NFL.

Now by no means am i saying russell is feasting on stat inflation, but he still has not proven anything being a 2nd year quarterback and that is where we don't see eye to eye. You can say he has a ring which is a phenomenal accomplishment, but flacco has a ring and hes not a great QB. Kapernick almost had a ring and hes awful. Your making a case that some of us are just simply choosing to ignore stats and knock all his accomplishments because he plays for a better team. you can only judge how good someone is from actually watching them and then analyzing stats. I've seen Joe montana's stats on paper, but i could never make an argument of him being the greatest QB of all time like some can, because i didn't grow up in that era and have little knowledge of how he played. For all i know hes success was probably tied to Jerry rice but hey i dont know.

I guess we are in a way arguing semantics here because from my point of view ii haven't seen "elitness" from russell yet. To me he has not been tested like a lot of other QB's have (Even some of the younger crowd QBs like Cam have been tested more than Russel has). At the end of the day he is a great QB, but he has still proven nothing for me to consider him elite. He has proven everything that he is capable of being seattle's franchise QB.

Take Sherman and Peterson for example, the two best CBs in the league. Sherman is asked to shut down one side of the field and plays with the best secondary ever assembled in NFL history. He is not asked to do as much as Peterson ie shadow the number one. Its unfair to Peterson to call Sherman the best until sherman is asked to do as much as peterson, so we can judge them on a level playing field. But regardless of that, i would still consider sherman a MUCH better CB than peterson, and not because of Gawdy Pick V pass thrown stats. At the end of the day Sherman plays with sheer intelligence while Peterson plays with raw athleticism. This league has shown that intelligent player dominate for the most part. It shows on the field when each of them play and if i was a betting man i would always put my money on sherman having the longest most productive career out of these new era of CBs. I could not confidently do this with russell YET.

I do not think it is semantics at all, I think it is very simple if you look at what Rw has done so far you see an elite QB, but if you look for reasons not to want to see him as elite you can find reasons. The funny part is you can say that about every QBW in the league, but some of you only want to see it with RW. I also believe his height still plays in the back of some of the people minds, etc. You attempt to ignore the facts and stats is a normal argument for someone who is looking for an excuse to not believe or buy into a stance, That is fine but all it leaves you with is your opinion which means little, with out facts and stats to support it. According to facts, stats, and performance and the eye test Rw is as Elite as any QB in the league now.

Your kind suggesting that i'm trying to find faults in RW just to troll him. It's like saying because peyton manning threw 55 TD's you can't have any concerns for the fact that he throws ducks. like i said stats don't tell the whole story. Nnamdi Asumgha was looking like the best CB in the league at one point just by looking at stats on paper. When he went to a different team and was asked to do more he came up short and he was exposed.

 

[Anthony!]

Russell isn't an elite pocket passer. You watch Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning and those guys when they are "on", and it is dissecting, in large chunks. Russell doesn't quite make his progressions fast enough to do that yet. That isn't a knock. I'm sure he is going to get there. Right now, he does enough other things so well that it doesn't matter. But he isn't the same type of surgeon those guys are. There were far too many times where Russell was at the line, and the defense comes forward, showing obvious blitz. Russell backs away, resets, clearly sees everything that is coming, knows the coverage, and still doesn't get rid of the ball and takes the sack. He still doesn't pull the trigger over the middle. This is all nitpicking, the kid is great, and is trending upward quickly, but there are just way too many holes, flaws, and stretches of subpar play for him to be considered a surgeon.

And if you paid attention when Rw is on he dissects teams as well. As to your way to many this or that, unfortunately there is no truth to that, as I said showed all the supposed elite have had stretches of less than great play. So you premise at best is flawed.

 

[Anthony!]

Your kind suggesting that i'm trying to find faults in RW just to troll him. It's like saying because peyton manning threw 55 TD's you can't have any concerns for the fact that he throws ducks. like i said stats don't tell the whole story. Nnamdi Asumgha was looking like the best CB in the league at one point just by looking at stats on paper. When he went to a different team and was asked to do more he came up short and he was exposed.

While it is true facts and stats do not tell the whole story, it tells way more than your opinion and add that to the eye test that anyone with an open mind uses and you have an Elite QB

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Okay, so I FINALLY bother to read this thread because, well, it's NINE FREAKING PAGES LONG and I'm wondering wtf? So I read the OP and see he just joined and I'm thinking, "wonder if he's just a troll who posted this so he could get into a fight?" read a few comments, blah blah blah, boring like I thought this thread should be so now I'm really wondering wtf is this nine pages long for?

Skip to page 9. Oh lookie! It's the OP TROLLING just like I had the suspicion he'd do.

And you guys fed the troll for NINE FREAKING PAGES? Which still leaves me wondering: wtf?

 

[Natethegreat]

Agreed, to me its an obvious troll here.

 

[Sac]

Did somebody say troll?

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I did 2-3 pages back.

 

[Tical21]

Russell isn't an elite pocket passer. You watch Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning and those guys when they are "on", and it is dissecting, in large chunks. Russell doesn't quite make his progressions fast enough to do that yet. That isn't a knock. I'm sure he is going to get there. Right now, he does enough other things so well that it doesn't matter. But he isn't the same type of surgeon those guys are. There were far too many times where Russell was at the line, and the defense comes forward, showing obvious blitz. Russell backs away, resets, clearly sees everything that is coming, knows the coverage, and still doesn't get rid of the ball and takes the sack. He still doesn't pull the trigger over the middle. This is all nitpicking, the kid is great, and is trending upward quickly, but there are just way too many holes, flaws, and stretches of subpar play for him to be considered a surgeon.

And if you paid attention when Rw is on he dissects teams as well. As to your way to many this or that, unfortunately there is no truth to that, as I said showed all the supposed elite have had stretches of less than great play. So you premise at best is flawed.

My premise is flawed? What was my premise?

I'm still waiting for your stats on the passing game, since you boasted you've charted the whole season, boss.

Dissecting a defense means you look at the defense, realize it is a rolled cover 3, get your team into a play to beat a rolled cover 3, and throw a bullet to a receiver that is open in a hole where cover 3 holes exists. Until we can do this with proper timing and some kind of regularity, it is impossible to say that our passing game from the pocket has evolved to elite status, boss. Premise solid enough for ya?

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Dissecting a defense means you look at the defense, realize it is a rolled cover 3, get your team into a play to beat a rolled cover 3, and throw a bullet to a receiver that is open in a hole where cover 3 holes exists. Until we can do this with proper timing and some kind of regularity, it is impossible to say that our passing game from the pocket has evolved to elite status, boss. Premise solid enough for ya?

Nope, our passing game wasn't as good as Denver's this year, but considering that Wilson threw more touchdown passes in his first two years than all but one quarterback in the history of the NFL, and did it with mostly backup guys, undrafted free agents, and rookies, I'd say it's worth considering the possibility that he made his receivers look far better than they would have with all but the very elite quarterbacks.

The fact that this discussion even exists, while Wilson has not had a full year yet with any sort of top receivers, and has to work within the constraints of a run-first offense, speaks volumes to how elite he is. If we're in discussion about whether or not Manning (one of the greatest quarterbacks ever to suit up) would have done any better on our team or not, I think it's safe to say that also speaks volumes to how elite Wilson is.

Saying Wilson isn't one of the elite quarterbacks in the game today because he doesn't have the "necessary" amount of years in the league is like saying Percy Harvin had an "adequate" Super Bowl performance because he only touched the ball a few times.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Russell isn't an elite pocket passer. You watch Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning and those guys when they are "on", and it is dissecting, in large chunks. Russell doesn't quite make his progressions fast enough to do that yet. That isn't a knock. I'm sure he is going to get there. Right now, he does enough other things so well that it doesn't matter. But he isn't the same type of surgeon those guys are. There were far too many times where Russell was at the line, and the defense comes forward, showing obvious blitz. Russell backs away, resets, clearly sees everything that is coming, knows the coverage, and still doesn't get rid of the ball and takes the sack. He still doesn't pull the trigger over the middle. This is all nitpicking, the kid is great, and is trending upward quickly, but there are just way too many holes, flaws, and stretches of subpar play for him to be considered a surgeon.

And if you paid attention when Rw is on he dissects teams as well. As to your way to many this or that, unfortunately there is no truth to that, as I said showed all the supposed elite have had stretches of less than great play. So you premise at best is flawed.

My premise is flawed? What was my premise?

I'm still waiting for your stats on the passing game, since you boasted you've charted the whole season, boss.

Dissecting a defense means you look at the defense, realize it is a rolled cover 3, get your team into a play to beat a rolled cover 3, and throw a bullet to a receiver that is open in a hole where cover 3 holes exists. Until we can do this with proper timing and some kind of regularity, it is impossible to say that our passing game from the pocket has evolved to elite status, boss. Premise solid enough for ya?

You win dumbest post in this ridiculous thread congratulations.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Wilson is putting up record breaking numbers while chained to an offense that gives him 20-25 chances a game with 2nd/3rd/4th tier guys plus UFDA's? Seriously now even you have to admit you overreached.

 

[edogg23]

Who cares if he is an elite pocket passer or not, he's a fricking superbowl champion in his second year. He had a hell of a game when it mattered most.

 

[Anthony!]

Russell isn't an elite pocket passer. You watch Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Manning and those guys when they are "on", and it is dissecting, in large chunks. Russell doesn't quite make his progressions fast enough to do that yet. That isn't a knock. I'm sure he is going to get there. Right now, he does enough other things so well that it doesn't matter. But he isn't the same type of surgeon those guys are. There were far too many times where Russell was at the line, and the defense comes forward, showing obvious blitz. Russell backs away, resets, clearly sees everything that is coming, knows the coverage, and still doesn't get rid of the ball and takes the sack. He still doesn't pull the trigger over the middle. This is all nitpicking, the kid is great, and is trending upward quickly, but there are just way too many holes, flaws, and stretches of subpar play for him to be considered a surgeon.

And if you paid attention when Rw is on he dissects teams as well. As to your way to many this or that, unfortunately there is no truth to that, as I said showed all the supposed elite have had stretches of less than great play. So you premise at best is flawed.

My premise is flawed? What was my premise?

I'm still waiting for your stats on the passing game, since you boasted you've charted the whole season, boss.

Dissecting a defense means you look at the defense, realize it is a rolled cover 3, get your team into a play to beat a rolled cover 3, and throw a bullet to a receiver that is open in a hole where cover 3 holes exists. Until we can do this with proper timing and some kind of regularity, it is impossible to say that our passing game from the pocket has evolved to elite status, boss. Premise solid enough for ya?

well all you need to do is look at other posts I have made and find them since I posted some of the analysis here in the forum already. As to your definition of dissecting, so basically unless you do it that specific coverage you are not dissecting. Lets try a real dissecting definition shale we, Dissecting a defense is when you see what they are playing and you dissect it apart, like what Rw did in the SB. You premise is still not solid, and know you can say our passing from the pocket is elite very easily, when given time, Rw has show time and time again he can dissect a defense. Hence 2 years over 100 QB rating. and over 60% completion %. Now are the other QBs who can dissect a defense better, maybe. But our Passing game or specifically our QB is elite

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Well he did have a quarterback rating of 123 and a ridiculous 3rd down conversion rate.. in the Superbowl with NO run game. So I guess he was just league average?

 

[jlwaters1]

Wilson was better than Brady this year, I am not sure what some of these people were seeing. Wilson had a higher passer rating in the playoffs than Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.

It is really disturbing how some of the Seattle fans view Wilson. Maybe they just can't break free from the height propaganda. Or maybe it is something else. But this guy has had one of the best first two years at the quarterback position of all time.
Just a few weeks ago, during the Conference Championship game, the poster falcongoogles started a thread in the game day forum asking if Seattle needed to look at addressing the quarterback position in the offseason.

Sadly that sort of insane and idiotic thinking seems to be a bit commonplace here.

I don't think it's debatable. He had the best 2 years of any QB in the history of the game.
A) Has more regular season wins than any other QB
B) Has more TOTAL wins than any QB in NFL history (surpassing Big Ben in both).
C) Highest rated QB in NFL history after 2 seasons. (first with 2 100+ QB rated seasons).
D) One of only 3 QB's with 50+ Td's in first 2 seasons.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Wilson was better than Brady this year, I am not sure what some of these people were seeing. Wilson had a higher passer rating in the playoffs than Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.

It is really disturbing how some of the Seattle fans view Wilson. Maybe they just can't break free from the height propaganda. Or maybe it is something else. But this guy has had one of the best first two years at the quarterback position of all time.
Just a few weeks ago, during the Conference Championship game, the poster falcongoogles started a thread in the game day forum asking if Seattle needed to look at addressing the quarterback position in the offseason.

Sadly that sort of insane and idiotic thinking seems to be a bit commonplace here.

I don't think it's debatable. He had the best 2 years of any QB in the history of the game.
A) Has more regular season wins than any other QB
B) Has more TOTAL wins than any QB in NFL history (surpassing Big Ben in both).
C) Highest rated QB in NFL history after 2 seasons. (first with 2 100+ QB rated seasons).
D) One of only 3 QB's with 50+ Td's in first 2 seasons.[/quot
One of only three with 50+ TD:s in his first two years? I didn't know that. It just makes this premise and thread even more ridiculous, I like it.

 

[PowellHawk]

Wilson is putting up record breaking numbers while chained to an offense that gives him 20-25 chances a game with 2nd/3rd/4th tier guys plus UFDA's? Seriously now even you have to admit you overreached.

During his post-SB NFLN interview Coach Carroll was clearly happy to hear that the Hawks had stayed below 25 pass attempts. It was yet another example of how well the team had executed his game plan. RW does exactly what is asked of him: no more, no less. And with a sore left shoulder too, if the infamous Gatorade switch is being properly interpreted.

 

[Lady Talon]

I swear this topic arises because the media is mad that Wilson didn't have enough of a sophomore slump despite the WR and OL injuries for their taste. After all, he made them look foolish for overlooking and height biasing him.

Of course the media looks even more foolish dragging this up ad nauseum. Luck declined harshly after Reggie Wayne and intercepted his way out of the playoffs, Kaepernick looked mediocre without 3 top receiving options, Tannehill is still mediocre, RG barely got 3 wins, while Russell endured his slump and his team took out the most anointed of elite holy grails in football and won the Super Bowl.

He made us look like fools again, so we'll keep up with the "is he elite?" garbage. No, RW isn't elite enough in the field of petty, moronic, buffoonism to get there blessing. GOOD.