Bevell Haters Unite!

[chris98251]

Pehawks play by play analysis of this thread is beginning to sound like John Madden, just need the teleprompter and yellow pen and a BOOM here and there.

 

[Hawks46]

Kubiak and Shannahan are also traditional WCO guys.

We all need to step back and admit that because of a combination of QB skill set, bad pass blocking, and lack of immediate separation by the receivers, Pete, Darrell and Tom have crafted a unique offense built around tough running and boom or bust passing. Its different, and is a result of circumstance as much as forethought. They have adjusted to what they have, and it has worked, and I think that needs to be recognized.

I'm with Pehawk in liking Kubiak. Not sure we could ever get him as a OC unless he knows it's a stepping stone to a HC gigi when Pete steps down, as he's getting legitmate HC consideration for how he turned the Ravens around.

The Ravens are similar to what we do this year: they run the ball and take shots downfield off of PA. Forsett is just killing it this year, he had 117 yards last game, and he was a fringe guy with us. They prioritize establishing the run and don't sling it around the yard nearly as much as they used to with Flacco. Kubiak would fit in here, and he's bright enough to tailor an offense to our personnel.

We're seeing more and more OC's do this. I think guys are finally starting to realize that it's really hard to come into a place and try to take existing personnel and make them fit a certain scheme, especially if it's radically different from the last scheme. OC's are making immediate impacts when they show up, and I theorize that the old adage that you kind of threw away the first year due to growing pains with a new OC are gone. Everyone wants to win now, and there's plenty of teams out there that have figured out how.

 

[chris98251]

Kubiak and Shannahan are also traditional WCO guys.

We all need to step back and admit that because of a combination of QB skill set, bad pass blocking, and lack of immediate separation by the receivers, Pete, Darrell and Tom have crafted a unique offense built around tough running and boom or bust passing. Its different, and is a result of circumstance as much as forethought. They have adjusted to what they have, and it has worked, and I think that needs to be recognized.

I'm with Pehawk in liking Kubiak. Not sure we could ever get him as a OC unless he knows it's a stepping stone to a HC gigi when Pete steps down, as he's getting legitmate HC consideration for how he turned the Ravens around.

The Ravens are similar to what we do this year: they run the ball and take shots downfield off of PA. Forsett is just killing it this year, he had 117 yards last game, and he was a fringe guy with us. They prioritize establishing the run and don't sling it around the yard nearly as much as they used to with Flacco. Kubiak would fit in here, and he's bright enough to tailor an offense to our personnel.

We're seeing more and more OC's do this. I think guys are finally starting to realize that it's really hard to come into a place and try to take existing personnel and make them fit a certain scheme, especially if it's radically different from the last scheme. OC's are making immediate impacts when they show up, and I theorize that the old adage that you kind of threw away the first year due to growing pains with a new OC are gone. Everyone wants to win now, and there's plenty of teams out there that have figured out how.

Our next head coach is already here I am thinking. Someone that has been groomed in our philosophy and has a working relationship with the F.O. and Pete. No it's not Tom Cable in my mind, could be but I think it's another.

 

[pehawk]

Pehawks play by play analysis of this thread is beginning to sound like John Madden, just need the teleprompter and yellow pen and a BOOM here and there.

Who's to say I'm not already doing that?

 

[Sarlacc83]

Pehawks play by play analysis of this thread is beginning to sound like John Madden, just need the teleprompter and yellow pen and a BOOM here and there.

Who's to say I'm not already doing that?

Do you picture Absolut' foot when you yell, "Boom, tough actin' Tinactin!"?

XOXO
Rex Ryan

 

[kearly]

For example, Percy Harvin has been on three NFL teams now, and the Seahawks were basically the only ones who had no idea of how they were supposed to use him. Bevell worked with Harvin in 2009 and 2010 in Minnesota and used him well those seasons. I think the difficulties scheming Harvin were evidence of how Seattle's offense is not run by Bevell, but by a Carroll/Cable/Bevell triumvirate. It is likely that the difficulties in using Harvin did not come from Bevell's end.

No, they probably came from Harvin's end. That guy is about I. There is no I in Carroll's team. Did Seattle "have no idea how they were supposed to use him" or was he not willing to be used the way they intended? Guy milked an injury for most of his first year with us. He MILKED it. Guy was a cancer and a big mistake. Blame Carroll for wanting him, but it's not an example of incompetence by the offensive coaches.

It seems you missed my point. I said that Bevell managed Harvin just fine in Minnesota, therefore it's probably safe to assume that the Hawks offensive staff's inability to utilize Harvin is NOT on Bevell. I was making an argument in Bevell's defense there.

 

[kearly]

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

That is a shame. The Hawks had a terrific game plan in that game. It's not easy to make Bowles look like an idiot, but that's what they did.

Be careful what you wish for, Greg Knapp may be available

Thanks for the handy segue. I was just going to mention that Greg Knapp had a top 10 offense when he had Jeff Garcia and Garrison Hearst (to all the people using the 'Bevell must be good because of the stats' argument).

I like our offense, but it has been almost completely built on the ability to run the ball. They didn't want this kind of offense early in the year, they wanted something more explosive, but it failed and they were forced to go back to the tried and true formula with limited upside. And that would be just fine, if it can be maintained into 2015 and beyond.

But can it? Will Wilson rush for 849 yards next year after every DC in the league sets their 2015 Hawks game plan during the offseason? Can Seattle maintain these rushing totals if Lynch retires or breaks down? At some point, Seattle will need to evolve on offense to survive, unless they find the next Marshawn Lynch somehow.

Maybe this current group can. We've seen attempts to evolve this season. The Harvin experiment in the first five weeks. We've seen some promising progress in the quick passing game this season. I think this is something they want badly, but getting there has been a bumpy road.

I would like to see Russell challenged by a more nuanced offensive gameplan. I'm sure he could handle it. Whether that's Bevell or not, I'd love to see Wilson used more like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees. BSD brings up the disguised blitzing. My first thought was, with the intense study that Wilson does, why is he still subpar at detecting them?

 

[pehawk]

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

Actually, alot of us discussed the blitz beaters and gave props. I created an OP, IIRC.

 

[Cartire]

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

That is a shame. The Hawks had a terrific game plan in that game. It's not easy to make Bowles look like an idiot, but that's what they did.

Be careful what you wish for, Greg Knapp may be available

Thanks for the handy segue. I was just going to mention that Greg Knapp had a top 10 offense when he had Jeff Garcia and Garrison Hearst (to all the people using the 'Bevell must be good because of the stats' argument).

I like our offense, but it has been almost completely built on the ability to run the ball. They didn't want this kind of offense early in the year, they wanted something more explosive, but it failed and they were forced to go back to the tried and true formula with limited upside. And that would be just fine, if it can be maintained into 2015 and beyond.

But can it? Will Wilson rush for 849 yards next year after every DC in the league sets their 2015 Hawks game plan during the offseason? Can Seattle maintain these rushing totals if Lynch retires or breaks down? At some point, Seattle will need to evolve on offense to survive, unless they find the next Marshawn Lynch somehow.

Maybe this current group can. We've seen attempts to evolve this season. The Harvin experiment in the first five weeks. We've seen some promising progress in the quick passing game this season. I think this is something they want badly, but getting there has been a bumpy road.

I would like to see Russell challenged by a more nuanced offensive gameplan. I'm sure he could handle it. Whether that's Bevell or not, I'd love to see Wilson used more like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees. BSD brings up the disguised blitzing. My first thought was, with the intense study that Wilson does, why is he still subpar at detecting them?

Let's be honest then. It sounds like you just want to see an air it offense. And while the fantasy geek in me would have it with that, I can find solice in realizing that that doesn't mean more wins or trophies. Could mean that, sure, but Pete and Bevells philosphy seems to be translating to wins, with the stats to back it up.
I agree with you that we wanted a different type of offense at the start of the year with Percy. But honestly, the offense was really, how can we get Percy the ball? We were extremely explosive afterwards. And the stats showed we were the most explosive in the league.

I really really feel like our lack of a dominate #1 WR has limited our ability to be the same type of air it offense as the teams you mentioned. Brees had a Graham and a Colston. Peyton and Rodgers has a plethora as well. And it would be hard to argue that at least 2 receiving options on all three teams aren't superior to any pass catcher we have.

Bevell has done what Pete wants and made this a run first team with one of the best backs in the league. At the same time he game plans for a unique QB and a good, but not great, wr corp.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

Actually, alot of us discussed the blitz beaters and gave props. I created an OP, IIRC.

You did

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

How many Bevell threads were in the main forum the week following the Seahawks breaking their single-game record for total offense? I can tell you: zero, nada, zilch. That was 3+ hours of an offensive clinic that Bevell put on Todd Bowles (the league's hottest DC), and there was complete silence. No props, nothing. But I guarantee you, the next time Russell audibles to empty on a 3rd-and-2, we'll see 5-page thread pop up where Bevell is given all the blame.

That is a shame. The Hawks had a terrific game plan in that game. It's not easy to make Bowles look like an idiot, but that's what they did.

Be careful what you wish for, Greg Knapp may be available

Thanks for the handy segue. I was just going to mention that Greg Knapp had a top 10 offense when he had Jeff Garcia and Garrison Hearst (to all the people using the 'Bevell must be good because of the stats' argument).

I like our offense, but it has been almost completely built on the ability to run the ball. They didn't want this kind of offense early in the year, they wanted something more explosive, but it failed and they were forced to go back to the tried and true formula with limited upside. And that would be just fine, if it can be maintained into 2015 and beyond.

But can it? Will Wilson rush for 849 yards next year after every DC in the league sets their 2015 Hawks game plan during the offseason? Can Seattle maintain these rushing totals if Lynch retires or breaks down? At some point, Seattle will need to evolve on offense to survive, unless they find the next Marshawn Lynch somehow.

Maybe this current group can. We've seen attempts to evolve this season. The Harvin experiment in the first five weeks. We've seen some promising progress in the quick passing game this season. I think this is something they want badly, but getting there has been a bumpy road.

I would like to see Russell challenged by a more nuanced offensive gameplan. I'm sure he could handle it. Whether that's Bevell or not, I'd love to see Wilson used more like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees. BSD brings up the disguised blitzing. My first thought was, with the intense study that Wilson does, why is he still subpar at detecting them?

Let's be honest then. It sounds like you just want to see an air it offense. And while the fantasy geek in me would have it with that, I can find solice in realizing that that doesn't mean more wins or trophies. Could mean that, sure, but Pete and Bevells philosphy seems to be translating to wins, with the stats to back it up.
I agree with you that we wanted a different type of offense at the start of the year with Percy. But honestly, the offense was really, how can we get Percy the ball? We were extremely explosive afterwards. And the stats showed we were the most explosive in the league.

I really really feel like our lack of a dominate #1 WR has limited our ability to be the same type of air it offense as the teams you mentioned. Brees had a Graham and a Colston. Peyton and Rodgers has a plethora as well. And it would be hard to argue that at least 2 receiving options on all three teams aren't superior to any pass catcher we have.

Bevell has done what Pete wants and made this a run first team with one of the best backs in the league. At the same time he game plans for a unique QB and a good, but not great, wr corp.

That's what you got out of Kearly's post? Wow, cuz that's not at all what I got. I saw a post that basically acknowledged that it may be difficult to maintain an offense that's as heavily run oriented as we've seen last year and after the early season Harvin offense of this season. Within his post was the inference that in the coming seasons Russ will be this franchise's main offensive weapon and that he will have to shoulder more of the offense with his arm. But I sure didn't get that Kearly wants an 'air it out' offense.

Yes, to me finding another Lynch will be exceedingly difficult as will Russ running for 850 again. Moving forward and moving the ball will very likely require more of Russell Wilson throwing the football IMO and I think that was the point being made (that I've likely oversimplified). On the other hand, maybe they go all in for a guy like Gurley and stay very similar to what they are now. But as Kearly said, they tried to get more air-oriented and more explosive with Pussy and I'm guessing that'll be the direction again. But I just don't ever see a Pete team being 'air it out' in its approach offensively.

 

[-The Glove-]

Wilson beat the blitz on his own and Bevell is holding him back? Pete installed the RO on his own while Bevell and Cable were doing something else? Wilson had to beg to use the RO? Really trying to force history to fit a specific narrative there. You can't untangle these pieces from the outside and reading the tea leaves to suit a pet theory will always be an obstacle to knowledge.

I'd be fine with Bevell as Pete's OC whomever our personnel is. Our offensive philosophy is dictated by Pete and Bevell has been creative enough to make things work at either end of the spectrum with the 40 year old stationary gunslinger and the rookie 5'10" mobile QB. There are probably a few better coordinators out there but most of them are currently head coaches or have equivalent OC gigs, and a championship window is the wrong time to be churning through coordinators looking for a hidden gem.

Do the people who feel that Bevell is a below average OC watch his press conferences? It seems to me like he explains his thought processes pretty well, never throws anybody under the bus, and comes off pretty well.

Don't just take my word for it...that Chicago game was won with the RO. RW was telling the coaches all game that it was wide open. And it was. And I guess it was all Wilson

Earlier in the game, Wilson was acting well beyond a rookie's years when he told coaches the Bears would be vulnerable to the read-option run. Chicago had no problem stopping this against Carolina and Cam Newton, but this time chasing Wilson around as he rolled and bootleg appeared to take a toll.

"I think that as the game went on, I continued to tell the coaches and they saw it, too," he said. "Especially in that last quarter and in the end of the game. The read option was wide open pretty much."

 

[RolandDeschain]

Regardless of whether Bevell screwed the pooch in losses this year, I believe that he has done well with what he has had to work with. I'm not defending him.... however, you can't just say the defense is the reason we were 13-3 last year and 12-4 this year with the #1 seed in both of those years.

When there's one primary reason for something that counts for more than 50% of the total list of reasons why something was accomplished, then yes, you can. Our defense is by far the biggest reason we've gotten the #1 seed two years running. The offense doesn't get zero credit, but it sure as hell doesn't come within 20 miles of the credit our defense does for our overall record.

 

[hawkfan68]

Probably hard to name 12 OC's better than Bevell/Cable duo. However I can name a few that stand out - Hue Jackson, Kyle Shanahan, and Gary Kubiak have already been mentioned. Add Todd Haley, Scott Linehan, Norv Turner, and Pep Hamilton to the list.

 

[pehawk]

Probably hard to name 12 OC's better than Bevell/Cable duo. However I can name a few that stand out - Hue Jackson, Kyle Shanahan, and Gary Kubiak have already been mentioned. Add Todd Haley, Scott Linehan, Norv Turner, and Pep Hamilton to the list.

Seriously, I'd make love to AND have Bevell at HC before I'd let Linehan anywhere near Kirkland. Dude looks like Homer Simpson with AIDS and makes Rex Ryan look like Mouse Davis.

 

[AgentDib]

Don't just take my word for it...that Chicago game was won with the RO. RW was telling the coaches all game that it was wide open. And it was. And I guess it was all Wilson

Are you being serious? That's RW being his confident self, not installing the RO into the offense and composing a game plan around it in the coaching staff's place.

 

[Tical21]

There is a thread like this on every NFL board in the country. Most weeks, the very best coordinators are ripped apart by the fanbase. So I won't pile on.

There are so many moving parts in the Bevel situation that you would have to be in the meetings with Bevell, Russell and Pete to be able to properly assess the shortcomings. Also, don't forget that Bevell didn't call plays in Minnesota. In that sense, he is still a very young coordinator. He is continuing to improve. So is our young qb, who didn't have a diverse college playbook.

Our offense isn't complex, which we all can see. But would we benefit from one that was? Do we call deep routes so often to hit deep plays, or to help clear some running lanes for Russell? How much does Pete want us to be vanilla? To what degree is Bevell hamstrung by a young QB? Or is it the other way around?

We are taking way too long to become effective against the blitz. My guess is that this is on Russell, but I could be wrong. Does Russ have a slow trigger finger, or has our staff left the safety on?

What are the chances we can land somebody better? That is the scary part to me. We seem to be in between eras. The brightest coordinators seem to be running the spread now. How many great coordinators are there really? The west coast offense is dead. Things could be a lot worse.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Probably hard to name 12 OC's better than Bevell/Cable duo. However I can name a few that stand out - Hue Jackson, Kyle Shanahan, and Gary Kubiak have already been mentioned. Add Todd Haley, Scott Linehan, Norv Turner, and Pep Hamilton to the list.

Seriously, I'd make love to AND have Bevell at HC before I'd let Linehan anywhere near Kirkland. Dude looks like Homer Simpson with AIDS and makes Rex Ryan look like Mouse Davis.

Linehan's been the play caller for Dullass this year and is the first one in forever to actually run the damned ball instead of trying to ride Romo which has always ended up in yet another 8-8 season. Don't know if he'd be a good OC for Seattle, but he's been smart enough to help Dullass go from 8-8 to 12-4.

 

[hawk45]

We are taking way too long to become effective against the blitz. My guess is that this is on Russell, but I could be wrong. Does Russ have a slow trigger finger, or has our staff left the safety on?
.

- last year during the MASH era of the OL felt like it took Bevell 10 games to call a slant. Heard the argument that RW wasn't good at them, and maybe not, but lo and behold this year he's throwing more and getting better at them. So WTF.
- Some too-cute-by-half playcalling in the red zone
- Too much empty set in downs and distances where the threat of Lynch actually might make PA work, seemingly triggering auto-blitzes (Mojo's term) that kill us
- PA in downs and distances that don't figure, causing more auto-blitzes that kill us
- Under-utilizing Marshawn at times although that has gone away.

Those are my main gripes. And there have been games where the OL has struggled with penalties (and pass pro) in situations and I've said okay Bevell you had zero chance there.

Our ineffectiveness with blitzes...other than the above-mentioned situations where a WTF empty set or PA triggers insta-blitz, I don't know enough to pin it all on Bevell. A pass to the vacated area is the most deadly weapon, but that requires both QB and WR recognizing. And in some cases it's a false positive and the LB will back right into the hot area, so it's sort of a throw of the dice. As long as Bevell keeps an outlet RB or sends a TE up the seam against a blitzing team, I'm happy.

I don't hate empty sets all the time, as Dib so ably points out, they have a time and a place.

My overall feeling is that Lynch and scramble-magician Wilson would exist as weapons for any coordinator, and that we'd be just fine with a different OC. I agree you don't just replace a guy without having something just as good on tap, so perhaps Bevell is here to stay, but I wouldn't douse myself with lighter fluid if Bevell were hired away.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

My sense generally is that if there's something that a poster here doesn't understand about this offense (i.e. why we don't implement more of this, why we don't use more of that, etc.), it is more often than not the case that there is some level of reasoning/strategizing that they just aren't seeing or considering. I guarantee you that things like "quick passing game" or "blitz beaters" or "pros/cons of empty backfield" are not concepts that are novel to this championship coaching staff. I guess I'll just leave it at this: there are generally reasons why this staff does things the way it does. If you find yourself saying, well, that doesn't make sense, there is likely some factor you aren't considering. For example: there are reasons to keep route concepts simple -- both from an overall philosophical point that extends from Carroll (scheme simple; play fast) and from a strategic standpoint depending on the play/situation. Another point: player limitations/skills will often dictate what you are and aren't willing to call on a regular basis. IMO, this staff has done a very good job of scheming around the players' limitations and abilities, especially at the QB position.

That is not too say this staff is infallible. But too often I see people here jump to the conclusion that certain coach's decisions are completely illogical and implemented without thought. That just isn't the case. It doesn't mean that a coach's reasoning is always sound, but at the end of the day, this staff has to be judged on the results, not on a micro-analysis of every single play-call (though those exercises can be fun). This offense led the NFL in fewest turnovers per drive and yet led the NFL in explosive plays and was top-10 in every stat that matters. You don't accomplish that by doing things that don't make sense.

Great overall post. Most everything makes sense.

That said, it wouldn't be me if I didn't pick out the one head slapper in this post. When I think of 'shortcomings' on offense, Russell Wilson doesn't immediately come to mind, so I strongly disagree that Bevell is covering for that 'shortcoming' in 'particular.'
How about the 'shortcomings' that jump off of the screen like 2-3 pass rushers having a party in our backfield on a consistent basis?

Not saying Russell doesn't have flaws (like holding the ball too long at times), but to distinguish him as a major shortcoming is considerably and 'particularly' off base, IMO.

Bevell does a good job MAXIMIZING all of the threats he brings, rather than covering them up [emoji6]

Your welcome, Anthony. [emoji102]