Why is defensive holding an automatic first down?
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Sports Hernia
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Another way for the zebras to control the outcome of the game. There should be no automatic first down, if they make it a 10 yard penalty with no automatic first down it would be better. The automatic first down on a 3rd and long play (11+ yards) is a game changer when its called and there is a lot of ticky tack defensive holdings called. I dont recall it ever costing a "legacy team" a game, but I can remember it costing other teams that play against legacy teams games.drrew":24u6iymz said:
SeaToTheHawks
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Yep. Exactly. It's absolutely bogus. Let's say you stuff a run. 2&11. Then get a sack. 3&16. You just made two great plays and a simple 5 yard penalty hold on a 7 yard out negates that and gives the offense 4 new downs? Pathetic.
Same with illegal hands to the face. Automatic firsts are just a crutch for the offense so that there's more points so that there's higher ratings so that there's more money. It's always greed, always. Where's the defensive equivalent that makes it automatic 4th down?
seahawkfreak
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I'm guessing these are penalties that the NFL does not want players try to get away with. Refs not catching it. So basically it's not worth it if you only get caught once or twice when you get away with it ten times.
They really need to get rid of spot foul pass interference calls and the 5 yard jam rule. Ball not thrown, no foul.
They really need to get rid of spot foul pass interference calls and the 5 yard jam rule. Ball not thrown, no foul.
Sports Hernia
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I think 253 in the post above yours nailed it. The NFL also has "desired results". The better a "legacy" team does the more gear they sell. This is especially true when it comes to playoff and Super Bowl merch. It's all driven by $$$.seahawkfreak":o5tce47x said:
That's why winning XLVIII was so awesome. A QB legend and storied franchise was denied a championship, and It was such complete domination there was nothing the NFL could do about it. It was a middle finger to the NFL and there was nothing they could do about it but sit there and "eat it"!
The question for me is why is it an automatic first down and not 10 yard penalty and replay down (i.e. same penalty as offensive holding).
Nothing I hate more than watching a first down go incomplete and a penalty called, so while it's now 20 yards they've still got 3 goes to go. Incomplete, incomplete, incomplete (but penalty, defensive holding, 10 yards and first down).
If you're going to penalise defensive holding with an automatic first down, make offensive holding lose a down too (as so often it prevents a sack which would have been 5-10 yard loss and a loss of down).
Nothing I hate more than watching a first down go incomplete and a penalty called, so while it's now 20 yards they've still got 3 goes to go. Incomplete, incomplete, incomplete (but penalty, defensive holding, 10 yards and first down).
If you're going to penalise defensive holding with an automatic first down, make offensive holding lose a down too (as so often it prevents a sack which would have been 5-10 yard loss and a loss of down).
Uncle Si
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Sports Hernia":bgqeix8k said:
jesus...
uh...isn't the obvious answer here to prevent a beaten defender from tacking the receiver to prevent a big play?
If a DB is one on one with no safety help and he bites on a double move, he can tackle the guy and prevent the big play and just allow penalty yardage. If it's yardage PLUS a 1st down, he's less likely to do it...or at least that's what I'd assume.
Personally I have a much bigger problem with Pass Interference being a spot foul than defensive holding carrying a 1st down.
If a DB is one on one with no safety help and he bites on a double move, he can tackle the guy and prevent the big play and just allow penalty yardage. If it's yardage PLUS a 1st down, he's less likely to do it...or at least that's what I'd assume.
Personally I have a much bigger problem with Pass Interference being a spot foul than defensive holding carrying a 1st down.
It should just be 15 yards like college, it seems to work fine for them. Rewarding an offense with a huge chunk of free yardage even if both players are hand-checking is ridiculous, especially when it's overthrown or just out of bounds an uncatchable anyway.
You can stop a shot on an open net in soccer with your hand to save a sure goal. Sure, the other team gets a penalty kick against the goalie, but the odds are suddenly a lot better than zero.
You can stop a shot on an open net in soccer with your hand to save a sure goal. Sure, the other team gets a penalty kick against the goalie, but the odds are suddenly a lot better than zero.
Bigbadhawk
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Or better yet, don't get caught or just don't commit the penalty so said penalty cant be called. Problem solved then.
ivotuk
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"The ball sailed high and deep toward the post, where Washington Redskins receiver Rashad Ross and Atlanta Falcons cornerback Robert Alford were running and jostling for position.
Ross had a step to the inside. Alford was close behind, eyes on the ball. His right hand touched Ross' back. His left hand brushed the right shoulder as he reached for an interception. Ross used his right arm to ward him off.
Then: Ross fell, the ball hit the ground and the flags flew. Referee Bill Vinovich's crew tagged Alford with defensive pass interference (DPI), a 42-yard penalty that put the Redskins in position to take a fourth-quarter lead Sunday at the Georgia Dome. It was a borderline call but an explosive, potentially game-changing play for which the Falcons had no recourse -- a reminder that DPI is the most damaging penalty in football."
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... terference
Ross had a step to the inside. Alford was close behind, eyes on the ball. His right hand touched Ross' back. His left hand brushed the right shoulder as he reached for an interception. Ross used his right arm to ward him off.
Then: Ross fell, the ball hit the ground and the flags flew. Referee Bill Vinovich's crew tagged Alford with defensive pass interference (DPI), a 42-yard penalty that put the Redskins in position to take a fourth-quarter lead Sunday at the Georgia Dome. It was a borderline call but an explosive, potentially game-changing play for which the Falcons had no recourse -- a reminder that DPI is the most damaging penalty in football."
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... terference
I don't buy the legacy team thing.
I have been wanting DPI to be a 15 yard penalty for years now. That's a change that must happen. It'd make bad DPI calls so much easier to swallow.
I had never thought about defensive holding, but now that you say it, I think it should be a 10 yard penalty but no automatic first down....just like offensive holding. If the yardage results in a first down, so be it, but that way a ticky tacky holding call on 3rd and 20 wont change the game.
I have been wanting DPI to be a 15 yard penalty for years now. That's a change that must happen. It'd make bad DPI calls so much easier to swallow.
I had never thought about defensive holding, but now that you say it, I think it should be a 10 yard penalty but no automatic first down....just like offensive holding. If the yardage results in a first down, so be it, but that way a ticky tacky holding call on 3rd and 20 wont change the game.
rideaducati
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SeaToTheHawks":16tqbghs said:
Well in this sitation, there would be nothing stopping the defensive backs from holding onto the receivers for the next play if there was no fear of giving up a first down due to a holding penalty. Referees miss holding calls all the time, and do you think Belichick would find a way to exploit that rule too. Hell, it's that way of thinking that brought the automatic first down with the holding.
SeaToTheHawks
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rideaducati":1gvvqb51 said:
Except that it would be a replay of down...3&11. I figured that went without saying. Or ideally to offset removing the automatic first down, it becomes a 10 yard penalty so 3&6.
rideaducati
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SeaToTheHawks":31pzz17g said:
I got that part. Refs miss calls all the time, so players would be taught to hold it they were beaten on third and long if there was no automatic first down and live to play the down over again. I think we would see A LOT more holding and holding penalties if there wasn't an automatic first down associated with it too. We don't want or need more penalties.
mikeak
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Marvin49":30nj72ph said:
Amazing - one post of all the posts nails it and it is a 49er fan
Of course this is why and I agree with that rule 100% and have more of an issue with the spot foul on PI especially ticky-tacky PI calls
I almost wish they would have two level of PI calls. The blatant "you ran him down and held both his arms / ran through him" Spot foul and the "yeah there was a bit of contact we don't like it 15 yards penalty"
But holding on defense on passing plays needs to be a first down
Sgt. Largent
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Well if the intent of the rule is to stop DB's from manhandling WR's in order to make the product a more enjoyable experience for fans..........then making it as harsh as possible is the way to do it right?
If defensive holding was only a five yard penalty, no first down, then DB's would do it all the time when they're getting beat. Obviously a small 5 yard penalty is way better than giving up a big play.
It is harsh, and I hate it when our DB's or LB's get called for it, especially when the other team had a 3rd and 15 or something like that. But I understand what the league is doing, trying to stop all the grabbing and holding.
If defensive holding was only a five yard penalty, no first down, then DB's would do it all the time when they're getting beat. Obviously a small 5 yard penalty is way better than giving up a big play.
It is harsh, and I hate it when our DB's or LB's get called for it, especially when the other team had a 3rd and 15 or something like that. But I understand what the league is doing, trying to stop all the grabbing and holding.
