Time to protest Bevell/Cable!!!!!

[chris98251]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

 

[hawk45]

It's not bargain bin shopping, see the other thread about us having spent the most draft capital of any team from 2010 on OL. It's poor drafting..

There are other ways to "bargain bin."

We never trade up to grab a lineman, we constantly trade down to get reaches that are "Cable guys." Ifedi, Carp, etc.

That to me is Schneider doing his trade down to get more picks thing, which is fine when we're drafting ANY other position other than O-line.

Just not a good philosophy when it comes to a very low hit rate in the NFL for good lineman. If you need em, which we ALWAYS do, you don't trade down and grab some reach that's a project.

So either quit doing this, cause it obviously doesn't work. Or carve out more cap space for the O-line so you can overpay for TJ Lang or any of the other O-lineman we lost out on.

Point taken, and 100% agree. They need to get "dumber" when drafting OL, i.e. forget about finding the guy that no one else found, and just take the most can't-miss prospect you can get your hands on, and trade up to get him if you have to. Or, back up the Brinks truck in FA.

I know the money has to come from somewhere for the FA approach but the 10M they are paying Graham would be a good start IMO. I would trade all of their homerun attempts at FA offensive easy-buttons like Harvin and Graham for a splashy OL signing and the team would be better for it, I have no doubt.

(Lynch doesn't count as a homerun attempt IMO because he was on the outs in Buffalo. Lynch counts as a smartest-guy-in-the-room bargain trade that was maybe the best in franchise history).

 

[Siouxhawk]

I guess that old saying about not being able to argue with success doesn't apply on here. That's why the knee-jerk reactionists are outside noise to the organization. The real decision makers have a plan that continues to make this team elite and I'll stand by them.

But we haven't been successful since the 2013 season. And since we let our two best linemen walk (Unger in 2014, Okung in 2015), sunk $10M into a move tight end that we use inline to block, and have a franchise QB that makes more than the entire OL that's supposed to protect him; I think it's entirely appropriate to question whether that side of the ball is being managed appropriately.

I think the roster moves we've made on O, coupled with the drop to the middle of the pack offensively -- even when bolstered by blowouts of weaker teams -- indicate that this team is no longer a superbowl contender. The defense, though elite, can not win us a superbowl when they are on the field 35-40 minutes a game.

And *of course* the offense supports their coaches! Wouldn't you support your boss if he continually gave you opportunities, but never held you accountable? The defense holds each other accountable, and they produce because of it. The offense, not so much. They're giggling and having fun on the sidelines during a loss. When's the last time you saw someone on the offense get mad or in somebody's face? They have no bar. They have no standard to meet. Every time they screw up, it's an "oops, maybe next time" reaction. And that attitude starts with the coaches.

Maybe Pete's 'disappointing' remark signals they are on notice, but if the offense struggles again like it did last year someone needs to be held accountable.

Enjoy your writing style, but I don't think basing the performance of last year's offense, when Russ, the lifeblood of the team dealt with 3 hampering injuries, indicates a regression in offense when it was top 10 DVOA the 4 years prior.

And it's hard to take your points seriously when you don't consider making it to the Super Bowl just 3 years ago a successful season. Gives me everything I need to know about your mindset.

And the whole sideline business is lacking any context for either you or me to make any verifiable judgements.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

No names?

Terrell Davis ran behind future HOF'ers and Pro Bowlers for most of his career when the ZBS was at it's height in Denver.

Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman (HOF), Tom Nalen (I don't even know how many Pro Bowls, a LOT), etc.

I don't care what schemes you're running on either side of the ball, talent matters. Our JV line can't even keep guys off Russell for half a second, not sure how we're expecting them to successfully zone block, which takes communication and being synchronized.

 

[hawk45]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

No names?

Terrell Davis ran behind future HOF'ers and Pro Bowlers for most of his career when the ZBS was at it's height in Denver.

Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman (HOF), Tom Nalen (I don't even know how many Pro Bowls, a LOT), etc.

I don't care what schemes you're running on either side of the ball, talent matters. Our JV line can't even keep guys off Russell for half a second, not sure how we're expecting them to successfully zone block, which takes communication and being synchronized.

I will say that I can see the OL being "good enough" at run-blocking at some point later in the season, especially if Carson is the back. That 30-yard run he had screamed Terrell Davis at me, one decisive cut-back where McEvoy and Willson both chopped down defenders to seal the cutback lane and Carson was off to the races. He made another nifty cutback on the run downfield, but that initial cutback is what I'm looking for in a zone blocking scheme.

By Lacy's 2nd carry I was screaming at the TV and completely off the "what harm in starting Lacy" fence. I want Carson out there with Prosise as 3rd down back and Rawls as the guy who comes in to give Carson a blow after he rips off a 30 yarder and is gassed.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

By Lacy's 2nd carry I was screaming at the TV and completely off the "what harm in starting Lacy" fence. I want Carson out there with Prosise as 3rd down back and Rawls as the guy who comes in to give Carson a blow after he rips off a 30 yarder and is gassed.

You don't have to convince me, I yelled for Carson to start two weeks ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=137958

Not Lacy's fault, but he's not the type of back that can have success running behind this line. He needs space to point north and get to the 2nd level so he can run over DB's.

Carson's the perfect back for zone blocking, find a cut back lane quickly and hit it hard........saw it last week. Best run of the day.

But Pete's gonna keep giving Lacy his carriers to fail and frustrate us and put the offense in 2nd and 12 situations.

 

[hawk45]

But Pete's gonna keep giving Lacy his carriers to fail and frustrate us and put the offense in 2nd and 12 situations.

I'm not so sure about that. Pete has shown a little flexibility with the run game i.e. last year when the run was clearly not working because the blocking wasn't there yet he would go away from it, which wasn't something I thought he had in him.

Plus I have to believe Cable is in his ear about Carson executing the zone blocking concepts better and Cable clearly holds a lot of influence over Pete for better or worse.

We'll see. I remember last year when we ran Collins 3 straight times leaving me bewildered on the couch. I do not know if that sort of inexplicable thing comes from Pete or Bevell. To me, running Lacy is approaching that level of inexplicable.

The good news is I no longer care about Lacy's weight since it's clear that even in-shape he isn't a fit.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But Pete's gonna keep giving Lacy his carriers to fail and frustrate us and put the offense in 2nd and 12 situations.

I'm not so sure about that. Pete has shown a little flexibility with the run game i.e. last year when the run was clearly not working because the blocking wasn't there yet he would go away from it, which wasn't something I thought he had in him.

Pete only shows flexibility when someone's hurt and he doesn't have any other choice but to go with next man up.

So I have no doubt we'll see too much of Lacy again this week, and far less of Carson now that Rawls is going to play.

I'm just not a fan of this many RB's. I'm old school give me a primary back and go with him for 80% of the snaps. Continuity and rhythm is not just for an offensive line in the run game, it's for the QB and RB's too.

How is Russell, the line and ANY RB suppose to get in rhythm and gain some confidence when we're constantly shuttling in Lacy, Prosise, Rawls and now Carson? That doesn't work for me.

Give Carson the damn ball and everyone else sit the hell down. You stink or you can't stay healthy.

 

[Sports Hernia]

The only way our 2 severely under performing offensive coaches get '86'ed is if it comes from the top, Mr. Allen.
He is a hands off owner which is generally a good thing, but in this case IMHO those terminations are more than warranted and I would love it to happen, but it won't unless something drastic happens as he lets his HC and GM call those shots.

Paul Allen isn't a meddling owner like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder.

He's a delegator, he trusts Pete and John to do the hiring and firing. So no, it's not going to come from Allen if either or Bevell/Cable are fired. If Bevell and Cable are gone from Allen? Then that means he fired Pete.

So outside of my performance comment, you agree with my post?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The only way our 2 severely under performing offensive coaches get '86'ed is if it comes from the top, Mr. Allen.
He is a hands off owner which is generally a good thing, but in this case IMHO those terminations are more than warranted and I would love it to happen, but it won't unless something drastic happens as he lets his HC and GM call those shots.

Paul Allen isn't a meddling owner like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder.

He's a delegator, he trusts Pete and John to do the hiring and firing. So no, it's not going to come from Allen if either or Bevell/Cable are fired. If Bevell and Cable are gone from Allen? Then that means he fired Pete.

So outside of my performance comment, you agree with my post?

Yeah we both pretty much said the same thing.

Allen is one of the most brilliant business minds of all time, and like most excellent business owners and leaders he knows the best way to succeed is not to micro-manage, but to hire the best, give them the resources.........and let them do their thing.

That's exactly what he's done.

Just disagreed with your first sentence, he'd never force Pete to make any coaching changes. Because he knows Pete knows more about football than he does, and trusts him implicitly. How could Allen not? Pete's one of the most successful coaches in the history of the sport.

 

[chris98251]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

No names?

Terrell Davis ran behind future HOF'ers and Pro Bowlers for most of his career when the ZBS was at it's height in Denver.

Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman (HOF), Tom Nalen (I don't even know how many Pro Bowls, a LOT), etc.

I don't care what schemes you're running on either side of the ball, talent matters. Our JV line can't even keep guys off Russell for half a second, not sure how we're expecting them to successfully zone block, which takes communication and being synchronized.

When they went and got them, sure after success they were recognized Alex Gibbs was who Pete wanted here also. Our model is a lot like those teams, Orange Crush defense, Donkey Man at QB costing a fortune, a stable of RB's till someone clicks. Pass Catching TE in Sharp. Very similar.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

No names?

Terrell Davis ran behind future HOF'ers and Pro Bowlers for most of his career when the ZBS was at it's height in Denver.

Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman (HOF), Tom Nalen (I don't even know how many Pro Bowls, a LOT), etc.

I don't care what schemes you're running on either side of the ball, talent matters. Our JV line can't even keep guys off Russell for half a second, not sure how we're expecting them to successfully zone block, which takes communication and being synchronized.

When they went and got them, sure after success they were recognized Alex Gibbs was who Pete wanted here also. Our model is a lot like those teams, Orange Crush defense, Donkey Man at QB costing a fortune, a stable of RB's till someone clicks. Pass Catching TE in Sharp. Very similar.

You know who was a Gibbs disciple?.........................One Mr. Tom Cable.

That's where Pete and Cable get their love of long athletic linemen from, Gibbs was the first to do that. Get lineman that can really move their feet quickly and get downfield to open up big cutback holes.

I just wish Pete, John and Cable did a better job of finding the right "athletic" linemen. Preferably ones that basketball isn't their first sport, or played defense last year.

 

[SonicHawk]

Hey, it's not like Bevell/Cable have brought us a Super Bowl or anything.

 

[chris98251]

Denver ran the ZBS for years using no names, guys quick and athletic, but the rules were different then, trying to use the same scheme with bigger and not as agile guys and different rules may be one of the issues.

No names?

Terrell Davis ran behind future HOF'ers and Pro Bowlers for most of his career when the ZBS was at it's height in Denver.

Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman (HOF), Tom Nalen (I don't even know how many Pro Bowls, a LOT), etc.

I don't care what schemes you're running on either side of the ball, talent matters. Our JV line can't even keep guys off Russell for half a second, not sure how we're expecting them to successfully zone block, which takes communication and being synchronized.

When they went and got them, sure after success they were recognized Alex Gibbs was who Pete wanted here also. Our model is a lot like those teams, Orange Crush defense, Donkey Man at QB costing a fortune, a stable of RB's till someone clicks. Pass Catching TE in Sharp. Very similar.

You know who was a Gibbs disciple?.........................One Mr. Tom Cable.

That's where Pete and Cable get their love of long athletic linemen from, Gibbs was the first to do that. Get lineman that can really move their feet quickly and get downfield to open up big cutback holes.

I just wish Pete, John and Cable did a better job of finding the right "athletic" linemen. Preferably ones that basketball isn't their first sport, or played defense last year.

Yes I know Gibbs was who was the guy Cable is attempting to emulate, again the rules are different and the Dirtiest Line in the game caused the rules to be changed and then again recently about crack back blocks, Cable said he didn't think it would matter, I think a lot of these changes do because it takes away a aspect of what your doing and homogenizing things across the board of what's allowed.

Also you have to look at the difference in Gibbs and Cable and what they see in evaluation, Belichek and Carroll evaluate as well but there is a big difference in what they bring into camp I would say Gibbs had a knack for seeing something he may not have put in words that Cable doesn't, much like great GM's versus other guys, put aside the common known information and the intangibles are what's left, some people have a feel for that stuff and hit homes runs more then others.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Also you have to look at the difference in Gibbs and Cable and what they see in evaluation, Belichek and Carroll evaluate as well but there is a big difference in what they bring into camp I would say Gibbs had a knack for seeing something he may not have put in words that Cable doesn't, much like great GM's versus other guys, put aside the common known information and the intangibles are what's left, some people have a feel for that stuff and hit homes runs more then others.

You're also comparing Cable to arguably the greatest O-line innovator in NFL history.

Also remember that with every football innovation, the first ones to do it have an advantage for a long period of time before everyone else catches up. Cable doesn't have that luxury, teams know how to defend the ZBS, so you have to execute, which IMO has been our problem.

Hell everyone thought Chip Kelly was a genius, and then everyone caught up and now he's on the unemployment line.

 

[GeekHawk]

So, I just looked up bevel's season records as OC since he started with the viqueens in 2006. The only really good seasons he's had were 2009 (12-4), and 2012 - 2014 (11-5, 13-3, and 12-4 respectively). In 2009 he got Favre for his first of 2 years in Minne. Since that was Favre's first year in bevel's system, you can bet he didn't know it well or follow it very closely. The next year the record (still with Favre, but with another year under bevel's offense) the record was 6-10. First year in Seattle, with T-Jack (who knew the system from being the starter in Minne in 2007 when he went 8-8), the record was 7-9. Then a miracle occurred and we got RW... But since he's come to know and fully understand bevel's system (per words from PC's mouth) the record has been going steadily downhill. 2015, 10-6. 2016, 10-5-1. This year? Who knows yet? I'm not expecting 12 wins, that's for sure!

Now who wants to tell me again about what a frickin' genius bevel is? I don't know how to play piano, but if I was watching somebody on stage randomly pounding keys I would certainly recognize that I was not watching a genius musician... No, bevel and cable didn't bring us a Lombardi trophy. That despite them, NOT because of them.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I know this may be a little crazy but does anyone think that fans (us) would ever consider doing some form of a protest of the ineptitude of Bevell/Cable etc... Whether it's banners at the game or as they did once in NY fly a plane over Jets practice with a banner saying "Fire Idzik". I don't know about anyone else here but I'm fed up with what has gone on with the offensive ineptness with Bevell/Cable and the line the last few years.

Anyone else in because....

I'm in!!!!

And Seahawk fans wonder why other fan bases hate them.

:34853_doh:

 

[mrt144]

I know this may be a little crazy but does anyone think that fans (us) would ever consider doing some form of a protest of the ineptitude of Bevell/Cable etc... Whether it's banners at the game or as they did once in NY fly a plane over Jets practice with a banner saying "Fire Idzik". I don't know about anyone else here but I'm fed up with what has gone on with the offensive ineptness with Bevell/Cable and the line the last few years.

Anyone else in because....

I'm in!!!!

And Seahawk fans wonder why other fan bases hate them.

:34853_doh:

They hate us because we aren't them? Because we're passive towards our FO when other fans aren't?

 

[Hasselbeck]

I know this may be a little crazy but does anyone think that fans (us) would ever consider doing some form of a protest of the ineptitude of Bevell/Cable etc... Whether it's banners at the game or as they did once in NY fly a plane over Jets practice with a banner saying "Fire Idzik". I don't know about anyone else here but I'm fed up with what has gone on with the offensive ineptness with Bevell/Cable and the line the last few years.

Anyone else in because....

I'm in!!!!

And Seahawk fans wonder why other fan bases hate them.

:34853_doh:

They hate us because we aren't them? Because we're passive towards our FO when other fans aren't?

Or because we contemplate protesting the OC/OL coach, days after boasting how we were going to go into Lambeau and handle them with ease.

Pro Tip: If Bevell survived the back lash post SB49.. a little protest won't do anything.

But have fun?

 

[sdog1981]

You know who was a Gibbs disciple?.........................One Mr. Tom Cable.

Incorrect. Tom Cabel only worked with Gibbs once in 2006. Then he was fired.