Sounders Season Thread ***YEDLIN SOLD***

[Uncle Si]

Come on Smurf...the condescending tone isn't necessary. Cooper isnt a wide player. Maybe he's not awful but you know the difference between a Zakuani type and a Altidore type

 

[Smurf]

Come on Smurf...the condescending tone isn't necessary. Cooper isnt a wide player. Maybe he's not awful but you know the difference between a Zakuani type and a Altidore type

Didn't intend to sound condescending at all. I actually agree with you that Cooper is best as a Striker. The perception of Kenny Cooper is that is where he is best. Not just you. Not just me. But just about any who have watched him play. That being said, thats not what's being asked of him in Sigi's current system, and he's playing pretty well out wide, as is Chad Barrett. I don't think we would see much difference in the team if he played up top vs out wide.


Our style of play is relying less and less on players like Zakuani to control the wings, and more on our outside backs. I don't have them up right now, but the Heat Maps for DeAndre Yedlin and Dylan Remick in the last two matches have been REDICULOUS. The Wingbacks are being asked to playing more aggressively that Johannson, Gonzalez, Wahl or Riley ever did. The width is coming from further back in the formation, allowing for more central outside midfielders...which is why we will see Evans deployed at RM and LM a lot this season.


tl:dr: Didn't mean to be an ass. Cooper is best at Striker, but is doing job out wide. Team play style keying on aggressive fullbacks.

 

[Uncle Si]

Understood... but if you're opening up space for wingbacks to get involved you need true wing play. You look at teams that implement a similar style now across Europe: Bayern (Robben, Ribery), Dortmund (Aubemayang, Reus), Liverpool (Sterling, Sturridge, Coutinho) Arsenal (Ox, Walcott, Podolski), Barca (Neymar), Real (Ronaldo) and who their wingers are (granted, they can afford them, but still they go after a certain player type)

The idea behind a wingback system (or the 4231/4123) is to allow yards of space to push your wing players into. this stretches the midfield and backline permitting more space for advanced players to run behind. It requires pacey players from back to front to push the pressure. it also requires cover from either the advanced winger or CM when the wingback barrels forward. It also requires a high pressing attitude to force teams to the middle and not allow them to utilize the gap between wingers and backs.

While Cooper may exist in that role, he's not good at it. I watched the Sporting game and he was non existent. yes the wing backs are getting forward, but they arent penetrating, theirs little space which makes their pushing forward . And given Defoe's demolition of the backline in the second game (which happens when the midfield is stretched and the wingbacks are caught up, perhaps caught in transition... i didnt watch it but it sounded like Defoe was left to run alot in the first half) it begs the question if Sigi brought in the right type of players to consistently play the way he wants.

No offense, but I have little faith in Sigi as a manager. Despite regular season successes, the Sounders set up lacks any innovation and teams seem to have little issue solving it by playoffs. Contrast that to Portland, whom I enjoy watching (as much as I enjoy watching the MLS). He's turned the roster over again, and I dont believe he brought in the right players. I was surprised to see them running the system they did against Sporting to be honest. I thought he'd run out a 4411 with Cooper there.

Oh well...

 

[SeatownJay]

Sigi Schmid it trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Color me shocked.

 

[Smurf]

Understood... but if you're opening up space for wingbacks to get involved you need true wing play. You look at teams that implement a similar style now across Europe: Bayern (Robben, Ribery), Dortmund (Aubemayang, Reus), Liverpool (Sterling, Sturridge, Coutinho) Arsenal (Ox, Walcott, Podolski), Barca (Neymar), Real (Ronaldo) and who their wingers are (granted, they can afford them, but still they go after a certain player type)

The idea behind a wingback system (or the 4231/4123) is to allow yards of space to push your wing players into. this stretches the midfield and backline permitting more space for advanced players to run behind. It requires pacey players from back to front to push the pressure. it also requires cover from either the advanced winger or CM when the wingback barrels forward. It also requires a high pressing attitude to force teams to the middle and not allow them to utilize the gap between wingers and backs.

While Cooper may exist in that role, he's not good at it. I watched the Sporting game and he was non existent. yes the wing backs are getting forward, but they arent penetrating, theirs little space which makes their pushing forward . And given Defoe's demolition of the backline in the second game (which happens when the midfield is stretched and the wingbacks are caught up, perhaps caught in transition... i didnt watch it but it sounded like Defoe was left to run alot in the first half) it begs the question if Sigi brought in the right type of players to consistently play the way he wants.

No offense, but I have little faith in Sigi as a manager. Despite regular season successes, the Sounders set up lacks any innovation and teams seem to have little issue solving it by playoffs. Contrast that to Portland, whom I enjoy watching (as much as I enjoy watching the MLS). He's turned the roster over again, and I dont believe he brought in the right players. I was surprised to see them running the system they did against Sporting to be honest. I thought he'd run out a 4411 with Cooper there.

Oh well...

How do you run a 4411 with Oba, Cooper and Dempsey on the same field? I don't see that happening.



I understand the Sigi hate. I do. There is a lot of pressure to perform in Seattle and when the job doesn't get done, its frustrating. The Sounders are very much a club like a big club in Europe. The expectation is trophies and anything less than that is unacceptable. Sigi got us 3 in our first three years, but has yet to make strides in the league competition. He has been given every tool we have available to get it done...and he's come up short...and then you look at how the team is being set up....It's easy to see where the Sigi hate stems from.


I think Sigi is a good coach. I really do. I do think he is too conservative, for my tastes. The average time for a Substitution with Sigi is about 75 minutes. I've always been a 60ish minute type of guy when it comes to subs. First half, make adjustments, give them 15 minutes to see how the players implement the changes, then make a change.

That being said...I don't think that Sigi makes good substitutions either. I agree with his sub choices about 40% of the time....but then again I am aggressive when it comes to tactics, and I don't have all the information regarding fitness.


IMO this team's build is ideal to run a form of a 4231.


Yedlin, Traore, Marshall, Remick along the back. Gonzalez, Anibaba, Scott and Lowe are your reserves for the backline.

Evans and Alonso holding mids. Pineda, Azira, Rose and Pereira are your reserves for the holding.

Pappa and Neagle at Outside mid. Kovar, Okoli, Estrada, Pereira, Evans are your reserves for those roles.

Dempsey is your CAM, and focal point of the attack. If he is unable to play you either play Neagle, Evans, Okoli, or Oba here....or change the system.

Oba is your Striker. Spelled by Cooper, Barrett, Weaver, Bowen and Estrada.



Their are a few reasons that our current tactics don't seem to be working.

1. The tactics for the player set SUCKS.
2. The players have not yet jelled.
3. Alonso is being asked to cover too much of the midfield.
4. Lack of creative off the ball movement.


All this being said.

I'm behind Sigi...cause I do think he can get us there.



Also RE: Defoe.

Both of his goals were off BLATANT Sounder errors. He didn't do anything special movement wise to get those goals. We gifted them on a silver platter. Both were horrible passes. His movement is not what prompted his goals. It was just the Sounders midfield being inept. Anyone who indicates otherwise was not paying attention.

 

[Uncle Si]

Cooper should be on the bench Smurf. Sigis trying to wedge him in.

I don't get the expectations for trophies. Seattle has barely competed in the playoffs. Outside the US open, which is losing credibility, they've accomplished nothing to suggest silverware is an expectation.

Add Sigis disjointed management over the last couple years and here we are.

 

[Smurf]

Cooper should be on the bench Smurf. Sigis trying to wedge him in.

I don't get the expectations for trophies. Seattle has barely competed in the playoffs. Outside the US open, which is losing credibility, they've accomplished nothing to suggest silverware is an expectation.

Add Sigis disjointed management over the last couple years and here we are.

I agree that Cooper should be a bench player.

I completely disagree with your assessment regarding trophies. 100% disagree. Every thing before each season, during each season, and after each season is pointed around winning trophies. It's everything with this club. The FO just disagree with you Si. They think Sigi is the guy who can get it done...and they've thought that since day 1.


I get it. I get why people don't like Sigi. I know why the fanbase is split 50/50 (and yes, its still very much 50/50) on him. I don't think their is anyone who understands it better than I do. After last season I weighed the options, retain Sigi or get someone else. The Pro's and Con's of having him, or bringing in someone else. I went retain Sigi. Thats where I landed. I didn't see an immediate upgrade available. I still don't. Infact I see even fewer options now.


I have faith in Sigi, and the team that they will become a more cohesive team on the pitch. Results will follow. Trophies after that.

 

[Uncle Si]

Arsenal say they want to win trophies too... Yet they keep a manager who is impervious to criticism and allergic to change.

Regardless of what the front office thinks, the dismantling by Portland last season (in nearly every match) shows the drastic difference in a coach who challenges the game and one who resists it. You can compare it to a Brendan Rodgers or Pep against a Moyes or Wenger (who does have a nice style of play but refused to adapt it situationally)

Sigi doesn't look a trophy winner. I don't know what the coaching class looks like in the MLS...but wouldn't a young squad coach from a top European club make a nice fit in a place like Seattle?

Something? Anything? I just feel line the club needs an infusion of new ideas and new young, exciting players. Build around yedlin not Dempsey

 

[knownone]

Sigi is a trophy winner...

One thing lost in all of this, the fact Toronto broke the week long record of most fouls against us in a game.

Remick wasn't great, he's a defensive liability.

Alonso dominated the second half.

Neagle is a giveaway machine.

Dempsey was easily MOTM.

Cooper should start in place of Neagle.

 

[Uncle Si]

Sigi is a trophy winner...

One thing lost in all of this, the fact Toronto broke the week long record of most fouls against us in a game.

Remick wasn't great, he's a defensive liability.

Alonso dominated the second half.

Neagle is a giveaway machine.

Dempsey was easily MOTM.

Cooper should start in place of Neagle.

Sigi is a trophy winner in the sense that he's won a trophy? sure.

He has also failed most miserably in the biggest of competitions this team plays in.

Sigi is a standard manager. He brings nothing new to the game. He will roll his team out, in basically the same system, game in, game out, with little adaptability or flexibility.

Other managers are bringing something to the match that he doesnt, and his teams are summarily punished.

Smurf and other Sounder fans can keep the faith. Until he shows even a hint of development i will assume this team is no better than a first round knockout again.

Every team wants to win at the beginning of the season. Only a handful know they can and truly make the effort.

Kenny Cooper... thats the Sounders effort

 

[knownone]

Sigi has 2 MLS CUP wins and 2 Supporters Shields.

SKC just won the cup and Vermes has been using the same 4-3-3 for the last 4 years.

What teams are adaptive and flexible in MLS? Seriously, i'm struggling with this one.

We're 2 games into the season, The teams been together what? 3 months? Dempsey has been with the team 2 weeks... Let's let the team jell a bit before we go off on Sigi.

 

[Uncle Si]

Its not this season but the last few...the Sounders have failed under Sigi to make any adjustments to their system and let teams punish them in the playoffs...

I'm aware of Sigis accomplishments. I know of other managers whose previous successes led to their failures later.

Adaptive teams like Portland, LA, Sporting, NYRB and now to be seen with Toronto are showing the necessary intelligence to win at this level. You dont see the same 433 high press with pacey eing play thats winning major trophies at Real, Barca, Bayern and Dortmund as adaptative? Sporting above all have adapted their entire club model. Its pre- K to the top team, a philosophy, a mission built on developing the next generation of player to play the game at a higher level than those doing it now. Its about winning, not just fielding a team that might win.

This isn't the MLS of even 5 years ago. We will see if Sigi finally adapts or rests on past glories with teams in a less dynamic league

 

[Smurf]

Reports are surfacing that Dempsey is looking at a 2 match ban for his crotch slap of a Toronto player.

I would not call Sporting a adaptive team...not in the slightest. They do what they do, and that's foul a lot.

 

[Uncle Si]

Reports are surfacing that Dempsey is looking at a 2 match ban for his crotch slap of a Toronto player.

I would not call Sporting a adaptive team...not in the slightest. They do what they do, and that's foul a lot.

Sure Smurf...

Must be blissful reveling in singing crowds and cup trophies no one really cares about anymore while the game begins to pass you by.

A. High press will result in fouls and opportunities in your opponents half. The better the players the better the press (and less fouls) But that's not adaptive to the basic simplistic forward play of most MLS teams? Portland? LA?Whatever...

2. The structure of the club is what is truly astonishing. Sounders FC are vastly behind these progressive MLS clubs in terms of system and structure. I brought it up in several other threads. Oh well...

I wont beleaguer this point anymore...you're welcome to keep your head in the sand. There's enough talent in Seattle to make fans believe they have a chance. I don't see it. Most people who watch the MLS I talk to feel similar about Seattle. Its a group relying on fan support. While progressive entities have already passed them by.

The league is changing fast and in ways most fans aren't aware of. Seattle has done little to stay on the cutting edge. Its frustrating. Sigi to me just encompasses that unwillingness to move forward... To move on

Sticky this and if I'm wrong...so be it. I'm disappointed in the mentality of management and the coach the last two full seasons and this offseason

 

[hawkfan68]

I completely agree with Si. Sigi is a good coach but his refusal to adapt is destroying the team. They haven't won the biggest trophy in MLS yet. Not even sniffed it once. After multiple years of the same thing and not fully succeeding, something needs to change.

 

[knownone]

This is silly.

Let's overact through 2 games.

Portland? Draw City? they are Sean Johnson away from having 1 point in 2 games.

Sporting? 2 games, 1 point.

LA? 1 game, 0 points.

NYRB? 2 games, 1 point.

Toronto? one game into the season and apparently they have already surpassed Sigi in terms of adaptability and flexibility. This is the same manager who managed a pretty solid 6 wins last year... innovation.

 

[Uncle Si]

Know one...

Silly is to look st the two games and ignore the immediate past. Silly is ignoring the direction of the club. This is an accumulation of the last two seasons plus this off season. Not the first two games.

Fairly certain that was clear in the numerous posts above. These are clubs that have invested in wholesale change and development from the grassroots. Something I've hoped Sounders FC to do. Something they haven't fully.

Take their rival to the south...investing in a young innovative coach, young exciting players, a reserve unit that is playing overseas and hosting youth academy players from across the world.

Its not about the first two matches but the directions of these clubs. Read up on Toronto FC sometime. The investment in player and staff this off season was a culmination of progressive developments.

Other clubs are taking a serious, innovative and European approach to their program.

Whatever...Sigi wears a scarf! We have Dempsey! We have coordinated songs and chants!

Go Sounders

 

[Smurf]

I'm curious what you are referring to when you indicate we are behind other MLS clubs...i get the feeling that opinion is NOT purely based on Tactics and infact I am inferring that you believe that is only a small portion of the issue you see. Could you care to clarify Si?


What do you believe RSL, San Jose and Houston are doing that are above us?



Don't take my differing opinion from yours as a Head in the Sand approach. I am not one to ignore rational arguments, and I do agree with some of what you're saying. I think you are making some very valid points, but are doing your argument an injustice due to the balance of importance you are placing on certain aspects.

Don't hold back, and give me the whole picture as you see it.

Tactics are Tactics. But your argument holds more than just tactics Si. What else ya got?

 

[Uncle Si]

Smurf...read up. Its all there... The progressive clubs who are taking an innovative approach to not just the first team but the layers are more in the Portland, Sporting, Colorado, NYRB, Toronto and the Cosmos

 

[knownone]

Know one...

Silly is to look st the two games and ignore the immediate past. Silly is ignoring the direction of the club. This is an accumulation of the last two seasons plus this off season. Not the first two games.

Fairly certain that was clear in the numerous posts above. These are clubs that have invested in wholesale change and development from the grassroots. Something I've hoped Sounders FC to do. Something they haven't fully.

Take their rival to the south...investing in a young innovative coach, young exciting players, a reserve unit that is playing overseas and hosting youth academy players from across the world.

Its not about the first two matches but the directions of these clubs. Read up on Toronto FC sometime. The investment in player and staff this off season was a culmination of progressive developments.

Other clubs are taking a serious, innovative and European approach to their program.

Whatever...Sigi wears a scarf! We have Dempsey! We have coordinated songs and chants!

Go Sounders

The past is 5 straight playoff trips, one bullshit hand-ball from an MLS cup appearance. 3 out of 4 open cup wins and the first team in modern MLS history to win a knock out round aggregate against a Liga MX team.

The wildly innovative Caleb Porter down south? He made the playoffs! and got blown out 5-2, ironically to the same guy famous for knocking the Sounders out.
Seattle also hosts youth academy players from around the world! They've also spent as much or more than any other team in youth development over the past 3 years.

Toronto hasn't made the playoffs in 8 years, maybe spending 100 million is progressive but it's far to early to crown them as a model for the Sounders to emulate.