SI MMQB on Kaepernick

[NinerBuff]

Most of what was said is true...

but I've seen improved presnap reads, huddle tempo, and getting through reads during the preseason (even if he's only had like 15 attempts). For instance, on his last drive against MIN, every throw after his first completion to Patton was a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th read.

But at this point, it doesn't really matter. Kaep wont be able to maintain his high level of play without these improvements, so if he does continue to be successful, then he will have improved in those areas, and if he struggles, his lack of improvement in those areas will be the reason. All indications are that he'll continue to play at a high level, and these details will work themselves out.

 

[SeaTown81]

Same old BS. It isn't just Seahawk propoganda...its the same BS Kaep has heard since college. Its not like you guys are "breaking new ground" here.

Its the same as people attacking Wilson on his height. Its BS...as if Wilson hadn't been that height all along and adjusted his game to counter the limitation.

Kaep hasn't always had to go through a progression because his first option was open....but there are MULTIPLE examples of him doing it just fine thank you. This is a run first team that sometimes runs 7 O'Linemen...so of course there would be only 2 read as there are only 2 guys capable of caching a pass out there. LOL. All the writer above did was rehash every argument that has ever been put forth about Kaep. Nothing new there at all. he doesn't have any new incite...just old stuff that I KNEW you guys would jump all over as soon as you saw it.

I've also read articles about people slowing down on the 'hawks because Wilson had the fewest yards of any 16 game starter. Its BS. Of course he did....most teams don't have Marshawn Lynch in the backfield.

Harp on this story all you want because the truth of the matter is that its all going to become crystal clear very soon that he may not always go through all of his progressions, but that is largely because he doesn't have to. When he HAS had to he's been able to do so just fine.

On the TD drive vs Minn he did so at LEAST three times including the TD.

Finally...I find it really amusing how one reporter out of like 100 says something like this and you guys take it as "proof" that you are correct. LOL.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Yeah, sure buddy. Whatever you say. A football analyst pointing out the simplicity of what the 49ers offense asked of CK is exactly like people doubting RW due to his height. How dare they hate on him so much by talking about actual plays! HATERS!!!

And Wilson had the fewest yards not because of Lynch (well yes, partly due to how much they run the ball), but because RW had training wheels on him the first 1/3 of the season due to the coaches being overly conservative. But after his big comeback win in Chicago, they realized they didn't need to be doing that. Had they realized that earlier, even with how much they run the ball, he'd have had a ton more yards. A writer not realizing this is simply someone that didn't follow the team earlier in the season not understanding the totality of RW's stats. A writer actually dissecting the way CK makes progressions compared to other qb's is not the same thing at all.

And finally, who here said this was "proof" we're correct? You guys do nothing but lose your minds when people point out that CK doesn't exactly play the position the way it's asked of most qb's. It's amusing to see you react to someone that doesn't hate your team saying the same thing. But no, go ahead. View everything through a cone of absolutism. "PROOF! I GOT PROOF! SUCK IT 49ers!!!"

 

[RolandDeschain]

Yardage really is a stupid measurement. It penalizes your team if you have a great special teams unit that gives you short fields regularly.

 

[SeaTown81]

Most of what was said is true...

but I've seen improved presnap reads, huddle tempo, and getting through reads during the preseason (even if he's only had like 15 attempts). For instance, on his last drive against MIN, every throw after his first completion to Patton was a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th read.

But at this point, it doesn't really matter. Kaep wont be able to maintain his high level of play without these improvements, so if he does continue to be successful, then he will have improved in those areas, and if he struggles, his lack of improvement in those areas will be the reason. All indications are that he'll continue to play at a high level, and these details will work themselves out.

Now this is a well reasoned take from an honest fan.

CK is a crazy dynamic player. I am not going to argue that in the slightest. And I am not arguing that he can't continue to improve and progress as an actual qb. Just that it remains to see just how well he will handle it. Nothing wrong with 49er fans feeling that he'll have no problems with this, or Hawks fans being skeptical. It's just a matter of certain 49er fans being honest with themselves about what took place last season. Dude balled out of control. But teams are not going to play him as foolishly as GB did in the playoffs. If they do, then he should have no problem being a 1 or 2 read qb who books down the sideline. But if teams adjust, more will be asked.

NinerBuff said it perfectly, CK's continued success and ability to become one of the best qb's in the game will come down to how well he's able to improve his game in things like pre-snap reads, huddle tempo, and making his progressions. IE the finer points of the position. The things that separate your Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Peyton Mannings from the Cam Newton, Phillip Rivers, and Jay Cutlers. Having crazy athleticism and working out like Hulk Hogan doesn't make one a perennial pro bowler. You gotta master the mental side of the game as well.

That's all Niner buddies. That's all we're saying. You guys are confident he's golden in this regard. Some of us are skeptical. Nobody on our side is saying he is gonna suck. Just that we need to see more. And he very well may do exactly that. Don't see anyone here saying there's no way he won't improve or grow. Only that he needs to. Just excuse us for pointing out these "hater" insights. You don't like hearing it, that's cool. Maybe you should stay in your cozy Harbaugh loving haven and continue your threads drooling over Instagram pics of CK working out.

 

[Marvin49]

Yardage really is a stupid measurement. It penalizes your team if you have a great special teams unit that gives you short fields regularly.

Agreed. I wasn't being critical...I was just pointing out how stpid people sound when they try and make these arguments.

 

[Marvin49]

Same old BS. It isn't just Seahawk propoganda...its the same BS Kaep has heard since college. Its not like you guys are "breaking new ground" here.

Its the same as people attacking Wilson on his height. Its BS...as if Wilson hadn't been that height all along and adjusted his game to counter the limitation.

Kaep hasn't always had to go through a progression because his first option was open....but there are MULTIPLE examples of him doing it just fine thank you. This is a run first team that sometimes runs 7 O'Linemen...so of course there would be only 2 read as there are only 2 guys capable of caching a pass out there. LOL. All the writer above did was rehash every argument that has ever been put forth about Kaep. Nothing new there at all. he doesn't have any new incite...just old stuff that I KNEW you guys would jump all over as soon as you saw it.

I've also read articles about people slowing down on the 'hawks because Wilson had the fewest yards of any 16 game starter. Its BS. Of course he did....most teams don't have Marshawn Lynch in the backfield.

Harp on this story all you want because the truth of the matter is that its all going to become crystal clear very soon that he may not always go through all of his progressions, but that is largely because he doesn't have to. When he HAS had to he's been able to do so just fine.

On the TD drive vs Minn he did so at LEAST three times including the TD.

Finally...I find it really amusing how one reporter out of like 100 says something like this and you guys take it as "proof" that you are correct. LOL.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Yeah, sure buddy. Whatever you say. A football analyst pointing out the simplicity of what the 49ers offense asked of CK is exactly like people doubting RW due to his height. How dare they hate on him so much by talking about actual plays! HATERS!!!

And Wilson had the fewest yards not because of Lynch (well yes, partly due to how much they run the ball), but because RW had training wheels on him the first 1/3 of the season due to the coaches being overly conservative. But after his big comeback win in Chicago, they realized they didn't need to be doing that. Had they realized that earlier, even with how much they run the ball, he'd have had a ton more yards. A writer not realizing this is simply someone that didn't follow the team earlier in the season not understanding the totality of RW's stats. A writer actually dissecting the way CK makes progressions compared to other qb's is not the same thing at all.

And finally, who here said this was "proof" we're correct? You guys do nothing but lose your minds when people point out that CK doesn't exactly play the position the way it's asked of most qb's. It's amusing to see you react to someone that doesn't hate your team saying the same thing. But no, go ahead. View everything through a cone of absolutism. "PROOF! I GOT PROOF! SUCK IT 49ers!!!"

Jeez.

Where do I start....

OK...my biggest issue with all of these arguments is the assumption that Kaep CAN'T go through his progressions. That is simply false. Does he very often throw to his first read? Yes. Is his first read usually open? Yes. Why is that? Excellent play design, correct pre-snap read, and a powerful run game that forces LBs and Safeties to hesitate or cheat up creating wide open windows. At no point have I said otherwise.

None of that however states that he is INCAPABLE of reading the D. There have been times when that first read wasn't open and he went through his progressions. Crabtree TD vs Bears, Walker TD vs Pats, a long reception by Walker vs the Cards in Week 16 are just a few of many examples. Those aren't all...just the ones I can think of right off the top of my head.

In this last game against the Vikings he did it at LEAST 3 times in 6 attempts including the TD. My point here has never been that he is a complete QB who is on par in the passing game with Brady, Manning, etc. He is still a YOUNG QB with only 10 starts and he is improving with every game. The problem I see with articles like this and the posts I see on this board are that they make the assumption somehow that his learning curve is static...he hasn't improved or that he isn't improving every day. Only 10 NFL starts. How much better was Wilson in start 16 compared to start 10? Even tho his offense was "simple", all D's had to be pretty stupid to allow such a simple O to rip them up the way they did.

RW Training wheels? Well duh!! LOL. What do you think that "simple" offense was early on in SF for Kaep? They gave him a little more every week. The Kaep that played in the playoffs wasn't the same guy that played during the regular season and that isn't the same guy who's under center now.

The points I was making about Wilson was that there are always people out there in the industry who want to say the oposite of what everyone else is saying in order to get attention. Lowell Cohn out here is a prime example. Skip Bayless is another. The "one read" thing is hardly a new issue. It was a "knock" on him in college too.

It doesn't matter that the yardage thing or height thing are BS (and they are)...people will write them because they are trying to distinguish themselves from the pack. THAT was the point of my first post.

 

[Trenchbroom]

Harbaugh was able to take "Mr. Shotgun" Alex Smith, who never looked comfortable under center, and coach him up to the point where he was actually a starting caliber NFL QB (!). I fully expect CK to be even better.

Hoping he doesn't of course. Not only for the benefit of my team, but to watch the Niner fans eat each other alive when the "We should have kept Alex Smith!" faction of the fans crawl back out of their holes and shake things up again.

 

[Marvin49]

Harbaugh was able to take "Mr. Shotgun" Alex Smith, who never looked comfortable under center, and coach him up to the point where he was actually a starting caliber NFL QB (!). I fully expect CK to be even better.

Hoping he doesn't of course. Not only for the benefit of my team, but to watch the Niner fans eat each other alive when the "We should have kept Alex Smith!" faction of the fans crawl back out of their holes and shake things up again.

Like it or not, Harbaugh knows how to coach QBs.

He has yet to fail.

Josh Johnson (great in college...not so much NFL), Andrew Luck, Alex Smith, Colin Kaepernick.

 

[kearly]

I think a point that is missed by some is that it's not a question of being capable of checking reads, it's about comfort and frequency. On a typical CK pass play, he check first read, looks at it a while, then runs. That doesn't happen every play but it is the most common scenario. When he does occasionally check a second read, it looks uncomfortable for him.

Kaepernick is the definition of a mechanical QB. But CK is also a living, breathing reminder that mechanical QBs aren't doomed to failure in the NFL. Alex Smith is a mechanical QB who posted good numbers the last two years (and he looks pretty good so far in KC). Andy Dalton is also a mechanical QB and he has posted semi-respectable results. Tarvaris Jackson is a mechanical QB and he's been a solid performer. Cam Newton is arguably a mechanical QB. RG3 is not limited to being a mechanical QB but is often used like one.

Thing about mechanical QBs is that they usually have a limited ceiling, and they tend to score fewer passing TDs, particularly in the red zone. The can fall back to earth quickly in some cases, though I think Kaepernick's tools will guarantee that he'll always be at least a league average QB. His arm alone (elite intermediate range zip) can make him get away with a lot of those WR stare downs.

 

[-The Glove-]

Which one of you did this? Marvin? Mre? Ninerlifer?

 

[Marvin49]

Which one of you did this? Marvin? Mre? Ninerlifer?

Wow. I would never put a tattoo of another man on my body...I don't care who he is.

 

[kearly]

Trent Baalke needs to pull his head out of his ass and get CK some decent receivers instead of waiting for 4th round bargains that hit the 4th round for a reason or going through Seattle's trash can. Failing to check a 2nd read isn't all that bad when your first read is a Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Brandon Marshall, etc. Just look at how AJ Green has elevated Dalton. I wonder if Seattle got involved for Harvin to keep him away from SF. Because swinging a trade for a true #1 WR is exactly what SF needs to be on the lookout for right now. I loved Crabtree in college and like him as a pro, but they need more than that.

 

[Marvin49]

Trent Baalke needs to pull his head out of his ass and get CK some decent receivers instead of waiting for 4th round bargains that hit the 4th round for a reason or going through Seattle's trash can. Failing to check a 2nd read isn't all that bad when your first read is a Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Brandon Marshall, etc. Just look at how AJ Green has elevated Dalton. I wonder if Seattle got involved for Harvin to keep him away from SF. Because swinging a trade for a #1 WR is exactly what SF needs to be on the lookout for right now.

Well if they could get Calvin Johnson or AJ Green, I'm sure they would have. Something tells me that they are tough "gets". They also assumed they'd still have Crabtree so were looking for a #2 WR, not a #1.

Additionally...they have to be careful with the $$$ they spend because Kaep, Aldon, Crabtree, and Iupati are all up for new deals in the very near future. That in part is why they traded Haralson...unused cap space can role over to the following year.

 

[mretrade]

Trent Baalke needs to pull his head out of his ass and get CK some decent receivers instead of waiting for 4th round bargains that hit the 4th round for a reason or going through Seattle's trash can. Failing to check a 2nd read isn't all that bad when your first read is a Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Brandon Marshall, etc. Just look at how AJ Green has elevated Dalton. I wonder if Seattle got involved for Harvin to keep him away from SF. Because swinging a trade for a true #1 WR is exactly what SF needs to be on the lookout for right now. I loved Crabtree in college and like him as a pro, but they need more than that.

The draft was before Crabtree got hurt and he acquired Anquan Boldin. We all don't live with the benefit of hindsight. Crabtree, Boldin, Manningham, Williams, Patton is pretty good. Crabtree/Boldin would of been lethal and are big targets for any QB.

 

[kearly]

I knew you guys would say that. For the record:

Crabtree... he's a solid WR, but not a #1. If he's a #1, Golden Tate's a #1 (Tate's rate numbers are actually quite a bit better than Crabtree's, he just has more competition for targets).

Boldin is old and has very little regular season production in recent seasons. First it was Braylon Edwards, then Randy Moss, now it's Boldin.

Further, both are possession WRs. SF needs playmakers there. Patton looks good, but he's just another possession WR. There's nothing wrong with stockpiling possession WRs if you have a good enough QB, but SF's WR crew was always average at best and non-elite QBs tend to benefit from #1 WRs more. I'm sure this is why SF drafted Jenkins last year. It was a swing on a high upside #1 type. It was a horrible pick, even at the time, but imagine if they had spent two 3rd rounders to bring in Brandon Marshall instead. That would be something.

 

[mretrade]

Since when is 1100 yards and 9 touchdowns not number one wide receiver material? Yes, he is a possession receiver but so are a lot of receivers in this league. You can't compare Golden Tate to Michael Crabtree in terms of production. Sure he has more competition for targets but we are talking a difference in 500+ in yardage. Golden Tate is a career 12.8 YPC receiver and Crabtree is 12.9 YPC receiver.

Not only that but since when do you need an ELITE number 1 receiver to have a very good offense. Give me a collection of strong possession receivers over 1 elite receiver any day. Seattle has 3 receivers that by your definition are all possession receivers.

"Boldin = is old and has very little regular season production in recent seasons."

What? Boldin had 900 yards last season and 3 touchdowns last year. That is not very little regular season production. That would make him Seattle's leading receiver by yards. That is solid production on a run first team. You can't call that very little.

 

[kearly]

Watched the 49ers / Vikings game today. CK looked really good. He was checking reads more than before and using his mobility to complete passes instead of just running. He's definitely showing signs of improvement.

Golden Tate is a career 12.8 YPC receiver and Crabtree is 12.9 YPC receiver.

Pretty much exactly my point: they are very similar WRs. If anything, Tate's better. His yards per target, catch rate, and yards after catch are all significantly better than Crabtree's. I think Tate is a fringe #1, I think the same of Crabtree. But I don't think either one would elevate a 1-read QB the way a true #1 would.

You are right about Boldin, his production is better than I remembered, it was touchdowns where he was lacking the last couple seasons. Still, he's 33 in October, and not a #1.

I hope your GM feels the same way you do and never acquires a game breaking WR. CK would be one seriously scary mofo if he had easy first reads.

 

[mretrade]

How is his yards after catch significantly better? There YPC are virtually the same. I agree Boldin is not an ideal number 1. I think Crabtree is a solid number 1 but not elite. I agree Tate and Crabtree have similar skillsets.

But no one in their right mind can say Golden Tate is better than Crabtree. Production is number 1 in the NFL. You can't extrapolate his rate numbers to more catches and say it means he is better or even comparable. There is a reason he only had 688 yards compared to Crabtree's 1100 and it wasn't just only competition for catches.

"His yards per target, catch rate, and yards after catch are all significantly better than Crabtree's. " <-Show me proof of this.

 

[lvnginhwktwn]

Oh, yeah, you got me. I sure cozied up to Marvin49. Only thing missing was my request for a Marvin49 centerfold, complete with scratch and sniff neck (Marvin49's neck smells of whiskers and Old Milwaukee).

When can I expect that, Marvin?

Dude you are too funny! Keep up the good work.

 

[Scottemojo]

Lets keep it real.

Boldin is a great, not good, but great hands catcher with a severe lack of speed, but superior body control and the ability to separate with moves and mass. Boldin is tough as hell. Seriously, someone broke his head and he came back in a couple of weeks. He didn't like playing second fiddle to Fitzgerald, but going to Baltimore, while not a statistical win, got him a ring. As he ages, he only gets slower. With age comes injury risk.

On the OP. He is only partially correct. You Niner fans hate my take, but it is way nicer than the writer of that article. Against the Vikes, Kaep threw one interceptable pass. it was a true play action, where he turns his back to the D on the play action, and then re-establishes eye contact with his primary read. He threw it, and if could have, even should have, been picked. It wasn't.

But when Kaep does not do a traditional play action, he can make not only multiple reads, this year it looks to me like they don't have to be stacked, and he appears to have gotten a bit of red zone cool.

I hate him, but he is growing. Did I mention I hate him?