Pope cut

[MontanaHawk05]

There is a difference between being a moron and making moronic decisions.

But I can see where concept of a spectrum between ALWAYS CORRECT and ALWAYS WRONG confuses some of you.

There was a fundamental key to the success of this team, identify undervalued assets that integrate well with the projected strategy + tactics. Because the rest of the league was focusing on other things, we were able to get these assets.

Things such as , but not limited to:

Big physical corners at a time where corners were judged more on speed.
Undersized QB
High producing RB (because the league notoriously undervalues RB right now)
Big physical safety (since it was more important a safety be fast than large)

You can go look at the approach yourself, we shot for more picks vs higher level picks because we were shooting for upside. 3 picks gone, if we get a keeper from it - that is a success.

The problem is, some of the things the NFL trended to in following our approach meant less assets that were unnoticed.

Additionally we had clear processes to bring in, identify strengths, and adapt them into our gameplan.

It is very clear from the results of these cuts we are pivoting around looking to fill holes without a clear understanding of how we are going to do it. Proof? The four LS coming in to fill a hole we should have identified + filled already. The staggering lack of CB depth. The lack of LB depth.

The fact that we seem to believe we have a big problem at safety but our best athlete from the rookies, Tanner, was not pushed into safety but WR. Also McNeill, who was supposed to crosstrain into CB got moved back to CB and Farmer who also needed to be evaluated at CB was moved to RB (idiotically).

Whether corner was a position Farmer was able to play is immaterial. The team is favoring pushing offense and in doing is neglecting the defense massively. The same defense that won the GD superbowl for them in the first place.

The new move to try to push the focus to offense is pretty obvious and we are clearly going to try to shore up ST as well because pushing defense is going to be expensive/difficult. Pretty big red flag.

This team is making strategic & tactical errors that I think are the result of hubris. That counts as making moronic decisions.

All this over an RB position that's filled just fine. Quit clutching your pearls.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Since when does a RB play defense?

I've seen it occasionally in college but that's it.

Nothing about my concern has anything to do with the RB.

But thanks for playing.

Cutting Pope is a symptom of the problem, but if they cut him and did their job in the other areas it wouldn't be a big concern other than a lost opportunity.

But they are not just making head scratcher moves, they are making team hurter moves.

 

[mrt144]

This is what, year 7 of JSPC? Solving the problems of a mature team are different than that of young one.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Why do people on an internet message board think they know more than Pete and the rest of the coaches that are intimately involved with all the players on the roster and are highly educated on the science of Football? Yeah, I thought Pope was the shizz too... But I trust the reasoning of our coaches. They have seen his every move in Training camp. They had a reason for the move, and I trust them. Glad they don't read here for roster adjustments... Just sayin'...

I'm wondering the same and should archive Chapow's post on page one, he does Twisted Husky better then Twisted Husky!

 

[Grahamhawker]

I'm guessing they have seen something more than casually apparent with Deandre Elliott. I'm not thinking the defense is being neglected.

As far as Pope goes, I'd love to have kept him, but I think the answer would be his role is already filled.

 

[pmedic920]

There's more to being a good fit than what we seen on the TV screen.
Every player has intangibles as well.

I've grown to have a lot of trust in PC/JS, I'm not going to lose that trust over this, they see things that we have no clue about.

I guess I understand the frustration but I refuse to think that the FO suddenly got stupid.

 

[hawksincebirth]

Spencer ware 2.0 ?
The real question is who out COMPETED Pope?

 

[RichNhansom]

There's more to being a good fit than what we seen on the TV screen.
Every player has intangibles as well.

I've grown to have a lot of trust in PC/JS, I'm not going to lose that trust over this, they see things that we have no clue about.

I guess I understand the frustration but I refuse to think that the FO suddenly got stupid.

This is my thinking as well.

Some here would be very bad Texas Holdem players because they seem completely content on betting their life saving on the cards in their hand while ignoring the cards flopping on the table.

We don't know if Pope was late for meetings or caused team mates to be irritated. We don't know anything besides what we just watched in 4 preseason games and pretty obviously that doesn't tell the whole picture.

I wanted to sign Pope over Collins. I was really pulling for it but I'm not going to assume I know more than the our FO just because things didn't go as I wanted them to.

This may turn out to be a colossal screw up but it may also turn out to be the smart move and since I don't have all the information that Pete and John do and they have a pretty decent history of making good or at least reasonable decisions I think I will choose to hope this is another example of them knowing more than me. If it isn't and I was right in thinking that Pope was the better choice, so be it. Your never going to make all the right decisions in a competitive nature like this. You take the good with the bad and hope the good outweighs the bad enough to keep you competitive.

I recommend trying to consider there may just be more information you are not privy to and the decisions being made are made with alot more knowledge of the player, the system and the odds of said player being a net positive overall and not just in preseason vs the 2's and 3's.

 

[RastaHawk12!]

Clearly Pete and John aren't paying much attention to our poll !!

 

[scutterhawk]

They know Pope did his work against fringe roster players. Fans tend to overestimate pre-season performances.

I like him a lot, but way too much hype for him on this board. He will end up on our P.S.

I dunno Greg, his numbers were better than Rawls were, when he too was playing "Fringe Players" last Pre-Season.
With what we've all witnessed through this Years 4 Pre-Season games, I really don't believe that Collins put forth as much effort and 'Get After It' as Pope did.
Just hope he makes it to the PS.

 

[scutterhawk]

:ditto:

Pope brings nothing different that our other backs already have. Collins has the potential to bring other tools but not seen yet.


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Respectfully completely disagree, Pope has the quick cut and burst lacking from all the other backs, Rawls has great cuts but not the burst Pope has, Pope can return kicks, Pope has decent hands or he would not be asked to return kicks, he runs with more leg drive then Collins and or Prosise has shown, Pope reacts and makes his read faster then Michael and gets yards after getting thru the line much better and has shown he can take it to the house once he does so.

We have a kick returner. To say that Rawls has no burst is pretty ridiculous. Pope showed he had a good first step and could get to the hole, but nothing special compared to Rawls and Michael. You can't possibly know the reads in order to say he makes his read faster unless you have a bellichekian line into the headsets. And no he hadn't shown any breakaway top end speed. This is pretty far off.


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His numbers were better than Rawls were in his debut last preseason, and quite frankly, they were WAY better than Collins were in THIS years preseason games.
Pope put forth a lot of effort, and when all the smoke had cleared, he showed way more heart and get after it than all the other Rook RB's...... "Always Compete"..... my ass.

 

[West TX Hawk]

Spencer ware 2.0 ?
The real question is who out COMPETED Pope?

^^Indeed.

I'm curious as to what exactly it would have taken for Pope to make this team. He averaged around 6.5 yards a carry, granted sometimes against scrubs (not his fault). 7 yards a carry? 8? 10? Schneider signed him just before camp basically as a camp body...and then the kid began surprising people.

While Collins looked like crap in the games-dropping an easy pass, never getting a 1st on short yardage situations and going down at first contact, Pope ran every carry like it was the final play of his career and with a sustained energy that perhaps only Rawls rivals.

And while people are quick to simply dismiss his release as "who cares, it's just a 4th string rb," there's a big difference in livelihoods from getting an occassional $2k or so a week paycheck on the practice squad and earning an actual salary.

Others argue the old "well I'll just trust PCJS," yet keen observers have noticed the whole competition mantra is at least partly questioned when both Procise and Collins remain on the roster and Pope isn't. I contend Collins could've fumbled 4 times against Oakland and still would've made it over Pope--PCJS were essentially already set with the RB situation following the draft and at the start of camp once Rawls began progressing.

PCJS evidently saw what they wanted to see in Collins. Perhaps they repeatedly rationalized his poor play and ignored the obvious. Maybe this was a case of tunnel vision where they were so deadset on their plan of Procise the 3rd down back and Collins a goalline option that they just refused to see the scrappy kid from Jacksonville St outperform them all.

They opened up the back end of the WR competition but Pope was doomed from the start. And that's the sad part of it all.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I am more concerned about the disregard for the defense until the last minute, but my frustration with the Pope decision is not the single player.

Yes he gives us a plan B if somehow Michael reverts back to old Michael and Tical has warned.

And he gives us another scoring option if something happens to either Rawls or Michael. But I think we would survive without him.

The issue is that in making the decision they are clearly deviating from their own blueprint. The very thing that made them good. And the reason is because they had more success so they feel more comfortable making the decision, they are the boss.

But deviating from the plan burns you pretty often, and the plan works.

So now the UDFA knows that we were blowing smoke up their *sses. It used to be a fair competition, that was the difference between us and almost every other team out there. No matter what, you beat the guy who has the draft slot, you still make the team. Most teams will put the UDFA at a disadvantage against draft picks competing for the same position.

This made the decision driver the performance, not extraneous factors that shouldn't impact the choice.

Now, we clearly rolled back to how the rest of the league does this. That means next time we want to compete for an UDFA and we try to use that line, it will get thrown back at us. We won't get first shot at the best players that did not get drafted anymore.

And we won't pick the best players from the pool anymore like we did, because we are clearly weighting factors that have nothing to do with the competition which skews the outcome.

It isn't Pope, it is also all the other guys we will lose later because of this decision - both in guys we will not get and the ones we will overlook.

 

[TestMo1337]

I'm glad we are getting emotional over our 4th string RB and not like someone who is going to see multiple series like the 1st and 2nd string RB.

We are at this point where we can focus on depth and prepare for any pending injury. Now that our core is signed for the near term, we have less flexibility on our depth and who we can keep.

Pope flashed but not better than Rawls has last year or Michaels in the preseason.

When Michael leaves in free agency after the season, we're going to need an impact #2 RB. It's just one preseason, but Pope sure looked like that guy to me. Collins and Procise did not.

Yes... but that's 2017. I am all for planning for the future but I don't see the value in projecting your roster for 2017 when you haven't started 2016.

We are talking about a guy that would require 3 RBs to fall off the face of this earth. Unless he's the 2nd-coming of Danny Woodhead, I don't see the need to be alarmed. Great pre-season guys do not equate to value during the regular season.

I refuse to ignore 6+ years of roster building over a 4th-string RB and basically challenge the current FO and calling them idiots. Everyone else is free to do so, I'm just stating my opinions on the matter.

I don't know what we have in Collins because he's flashed so poorly, but I see a low-center of gravity style of running that reminds me of how Lynch ran (not beastmode, just a low-center of gravity).

 

[Basis4day]

Spencer ware 2.0 ?
The real question is who out COMPETED Pope?

That assumes what fans saw in the second half of four preseason games matters more than what the coaching staff saw in all of practice and in the classroom.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Generally results in real games should matter more than practice period.

People perform differently in different environments. Go ask the Mariners, they are practically experts at getting guys that are amazing in practice but cannot dogsh*t in a game.

Some of you are making crazy contortions trying to fit why someone would clearly walk away from better results into some narrative. You have guys explaining that Pope must have been late, he must have done meetings badly, etc.

My first response is, if you make that much difference in a game it shouldn't matter. But it probably is not him being late. Occam's Razor pretty much lays it down. He came in to compete for a job that there was no real competition for.

But the other guys were injured? Foxx was injured too, and he was lighting up camp. If a guy is clearly better, he should get the key.

I think they figured Pope was overlap with Rawls, but that might have been good to rest Rawls or if Rawls got hurt. More importantly I think they think someone would have tried to take their broken 3 yds and a cloud of nothing RB if they put him on PS, so they picked Pope.

Losing Pope? Not going to kill us. Losing the program that made us one of the most effective teams in getting high contributing UDFAs onboard? That is likely going to hurt.

Just remember, same outlook and we have Kris Durham instead of Kearse trying to catch the balls. Sure we would have been as good?

This smells like someone got attached to their draft pick and didn't want to admit that pick got beat out. And if that is true, that sucks, because the moment you kill the competition machine once you cannot just turn it on and off as you feel like it. People see through the BS.

 

[dogorama]

Fans are fickle, Pope is just this week's "dumb" coaching decision. It seems like it was only a couple of weeks ago that your intelligence was seriously questioned if you had any doubts about Boykin. The group-think turns on a dime.

 

[ivotuk]

You can NOT compare Rawls situation last year to Pope this year. This year there's more stability at the running back position with our two starters being young, hungry, dynamic backs.

Last year we had an older Marshawn who threatened retirement and had occasional back issues, Turbin, whom needs no description, and a problematic Christine Michael who was traded.

So what was Rawls competition for a roster spot? There was none.

. This year we have Rawls, a rejuvenated Michael, Prosie, Alex Collins who has a proven track record, but whom people want to cut based on preseason, and a young unknown that looked good in preseason, against players who will be watching football from home.

But, I understand the passion, I've been there, and I've railed against Pete and John for :making a "foolish" decision. But IMHO, that only demonstrates the passion, dedication and yes, football knowledge of the fans on this site. Because occasionally...I mean rarely, we are right.

 

[MB12]

Burley was waived as injured, not straight-out cut. Might be headed to IR?

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Burley was waived as injured, not straight-out cut. Might be headed to IR?

He was cut. I don't like it but totally understand it. They are going with Lane inside and that is the correct choice. The man covered Edelman and Welker until his freak injury.

Healthy honey Burley isn't. Plus they aren't doing a billion safeties for nothing...... 4/2/5. Understand it, buy into it, accept it. Faster and quicker. It's just that simple. Screw putting a linebacker in the when a big safety does it better.