MB on Pete Carroll

[TwistedHusky]

I hope not.

Without Pete, some of the greatest moments of being a football fan would never have occurred.

We do not make a SB without him. Some of the greatest football I have ever watched was between the Hawks and those loaded 49ers teams.

But man, the last 2 years the football has been brutal. Ty Willingham brutal. Terrible offense (literally not even worth watching in the 1st half) sandwiched between frustrated and exhausted defenses. It was like watching someone bleed slowly.

There is a difference between not understanding how amazing someone WAS and in realizing that the very things they were great at - they are not anymore.

Pete was tremendous at putting together incredible, all-world rosters. He did it at USC, he did it here. But the roster is not only all-world, it is thin. And Pete was never a great gameday coach, strategist or tactician. So there is no reason to expect anything when Pete's weakness is not offset by his traditional strength.

But, I am going to hope that Pete realizes more of the same will not work.

I absolutely appreciate everything he had done up to that 2nd SB loss. But this is a What Have You Done For Me Lately world and he hasn't done much great or even adequate in the past 2 years.

There is a difference between being spoiled and acknowledging the football we have been subjected in the past 2 years to has been garbage, worse because the team can do better (we are literally the #1 team in scoring in the 2nd half..)

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Some good points. But come on, Ty bad? Not even close. They were in the playoffs 2 years ago. Ty had a zero win team that was one of the worst in UW History. I realize how much you dislike this front office, but even for you that is a major stretch :lol:

 

[mrt144]

But man, the last 2 years the football has been brutal. Ty Willingham brutal. Terrible offense (literally not even worth watching in the 1st half) sandwiched between frustrated and exhausted defenses. It was like watching someone bleed slowly.

I likened it to drowning in 2 inches of water - if only you could lift your head up an inch you'd be fine but alas, that seemingly small thing eludes you.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Soulfish,

That is not fair. I do not 'dislike this front office". I love Carroll. I just hate his results the past 3 years.

I don't dislike JS. I think he is an average FO guy that is incredibly hit or miss. But I don't hate him with the fires of 10,000 suns like I hated Ty. Big difference.

(But those incompetent Ty Willingham offenses had some damn good defensive player on them. Remember all the CBs and safeties that made it to the NFL from that last team alone? The analogy is not completely off.)

That said, football I am referring to is the 1st half. And in those 1st halves it has easily been as bad as the Ty year stuff I was subjected too as well. Honestly, it isn't just this last year either. At least 2 years of this have gone on. So this is a trend, not an aberration.

Last year, the team literally was unwatchable football for 3 full quarters in almost every game. That is awful no matter how many SBs someone reached 5 years ago.

I don't hate Carroll. I dislike his football results for 3 years running now. I don't hate JS. I think he is overrated, likely below average, but not terrible (except FA decisions...he sucks at that). But man...that football we have been trotting out....that type of football, I hate. Ick.

MR144 is right. We are drowning for no reason. We CAN score. We do in the 4th quarter (#1) but for some reason we choose not to the rest of the game. It makes no sense.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Ok

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This league is about winning, winning immediately. PC did that. If his approach isn't sustainable its hypocritical to ask him to change when it works. What he needed to do was change the players. What do you think Belichek's approach will be when Brady leaves?

I think he leaves too, or maybe sooner if the Pats start to unravel a little this year.

But that's my point, I think Pete and John learned through the last couple of years that it's impossible to keep a core group of players around with Pete's coaching style.

You either have to be 100% cutthroat like Belichick, or turn the roster over and over drafting and acquiring new moldable players that will buy into what Pete's preaching.

Perhaps Pete's relative experience with the NFL shaded his impression of what he could accomplish long term - whereas the NCAA put in structural limits to player tenure, in the NFL it comes down to a value judgment from the coaching/FO apparatus. Perhaps Pete wanted to have it all for as long as he could with the players he knew were performers, even if there were diminishing returns on buy in by those same players over time.

Pete did want to have it all. He thought his coaching style could work long term because he trusted and believed in his veterans to continue to drink the Kool Aid.

But some of them didn't, once the hunger went away and they got their fat contracts they became jaded and cynical towards Pete's raw raw "Kumbyah" speeches and style.

Which is fine, that's the nature of sports, when it works it works spectacularly well...........and when it doesn't? It dissolves pretty damn quick.

But that's on Pete. It's why he gets paid as much as he does, he's suppose to recognize that deficiency in himself. But IMO his ego won out and he thought he could salvage some of these players and coaches and keep the train rolling.

 

[NJlargent]

I agree with Sgt's analysis immediately above, but the veterans had to stop drinking the Kool Aid as a result of something. Getting paid would not cause that. Bennett bringing a book into a meeting does not cause that. I think the only logical conclusion, if you believe veterans stopped "buying in", was that 49 caused it and the immediate handling thereafter. This is why we have underachieved.

 

[semiahmoo]

Where Pete failed was attempting to blend a championship caliber roster, and a sub standard caliber coaching staff (mostly Cabevell). That succeeded in undermining his authority (buy in), once the W's dropped off.

True.

 

[TwistedHusky]

That Seymour quote nails what happened so perfectly it should be framed in glowing neon.

With flames surrounding it.

(If you are into that...and who isn't into words on fire?)




But it was not just the tremendous roster combined with the anti-tremendous coaching.

Over time you lost pieces of that tremendous roster to injury and attrition.

And now, the coaching staff, which the roster offset the mistakes of, was now more a liability.

Worse, the players saw it. That is why they checked out.

Because the platitudes and BS did not match the reality that the players were the net positive and the coaching was something they had to overcome, not something that helped. The moment you move from help to hindrance people start to resent you.

 

[chris98251]

That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.

But it won a Super Bowl...

so clearly it is a good approach to management.

It's both.

The gray area lies in the sustainability, not the approach. Obviously Pete's coaching style helped build one of the most dominant and successful teams for a 3-4 year period in the history of the NFL.

Where he failed was in knowing when that approach was no longer effective.

we werent talking about the sustainability.

Only one team has managed to be "sustainable" for any length of time in the history of this league...

One... and even then they have lost Super Bowls

This league is about winning, winning immediately. PC did that. If his approach isn't sustainable its hypocritical to ask him to change when it works. What he needed to do was change the players. What do you think Belichek's approach will be when Brady leaves?

Retirement or GM.

 

[hawknation2018]

I would love to see Pete removed from the offensive side of the ball.

The offensive side of the ball is already the area where Carroll has asserted the least influence. All he wants is for the offense to be good at both running and throwing the ball. Unfortunately, the previous offensive coordinator just wasn't any good. The one thing I will say about Schottenheimer is that his style of play is a lot more physical, much less finesse than the previous regime.

Pete has spoken many times about this in the past. He used to be hands off on offense, then at USC he seized control and became heavily involved on the offensive side of the ball, and he brought that with him to the Seahawks. It's why he hires yes man OCs, Pete wants it done his way, and he is "heavily involved" with the offense. His words not mine. I would love to pull up the exact interviews for you as he has said this a few times over the years, but it's buried in the .com archives if you're patient enough to look for it.

We will see how much has changed with Bevell gone, but I surmise the team will play overly conservative in the 1st half, consistently run into loaded boxes when a swing pass can get you an easy 4-6 yds. Be heavy on deep vertical routes, with no intermediate, or check down options. It's the way Pete wants to play, it's the style he likes.

The offense was bad because of Bevell. He was the offensive coordinator. He was the one who phased out things like the fullback, good blocking TEs, etc.

Carroll never said those words to my knowledge.

Now, it's up to Brian Schottenheimer to produce.

 

[Tusc2000]

After Pete supported MB when he got arrested this how he pays him back?
Bennett's true colors are showing.

He and Sherman are classless narcissists. I have lost all respect for them both.

Yup.