Max Unger and 1st for Jimmy Graham and 4th round pick

[Atradees]

Hard not to be excited about one of the NFLs best Tight Ends. Will Jimmy Graham be content not being a superstar anymore? Cause he aint gonna get the ball unless we are changing the offense. He might get three balls a game. He is used to 8 to ten targets a game minimum. How is that gonna work?

How is that going to work?

1) I don't agree that it will be that few targets. I think RW will use him as outlet instead of throwing the ball away and RW will hit over 70% this year due to this trade

2) If I am wrong on 1 then I still expect 2 out of those 3 catches will be TDs - that keeps Graham as a superstar

I do like how the numbers are shakin out and this is exactly the right move for a weapon because of price and skillset.

Frankly, the catches will make him famous because he will be in the Superbowl with us.

 

[Ozzy]

Everyone knew that the second half of the 1st round was weak this year. No way you would get Any Team to give you the full Hypothetical 600 point value for that pick. The point system is an ok starting point for evaluating draft pick trades but it is not perfect because the values go up and down based on the perceived amount of talent.

So we not only had to take partial value from New Orleans for that 600 points, but we had to throw Max Unger in to sweeten the deal as well?

Unger was the origin of the trade. Not Graham. The Saints wanted Unger and initially tried to offer up one of their WRs (no word on whether draft picks were involved in those discussions). Schneider decided to see if Graham was available, and Loomis indicated he was.

Yeah, I understand that. My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek there. Just saying I really think a lot of folks are way overvaluing what the Seahawks got in this trade for what they gave up.

I have high hopes for him. I just think we got the shorter end of this deal.

With all due respect as you're one of my favorite posters I just can't comprehend the idea we got the short end of the stick on this deal. Every single football mind/scout I've read the past 24 hours think it was highway robbery for Seattle on paper. Lewis was probably 70-80% what Unger was last year. We were terrible in the red zone passing wise because of personnel. They just lost maybe 20% at the center position(assuming Unger is even on the field) and completely changed our offense with something we desperately needed. Agree to disagree but I think you will be pleasantly surprised next year

 

[byau]

My thoughts while processing all this up until about 10 minutes ago

UPSIDES:
He and Gronkoski are 1a and 1b in the league. Two years ago it was Graham (with Gronkoski injured), this year it was vice versa

He fits in so much better as a triple threat than Harvin did. Fits in with the offense design

Not to mention, if Lynch and Wilson complemented each other ..meaning Wilson made Lynch more effective and vice versa, now imagine Graham pulling people away ...

DOWNSIDES
Mentally soft? Like a diva or prima donna?

He is "replacing" Zach Miller, an all purpose TE who is also mentally strong

Also losing Unger, another mentally strong tough man leader


As of 10 minutes ago, after watching the video posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109391

[youtube]YRsYNFQOwl4[/youtube]

No doubt he is a tough guy. And maybe he's not soft, but just quiet and introverted and insecure. Not to mention it seems the Saints kinda played with his head with the franchise tag as well as signing him to a big contract and then trading him - which has got to bring back memories of his background growing up.

You gotta think Russ, Coach, and JS will welcome him and make him feel safe

Not to mention Marshawn has shown a lot of compassion for teammates too.

I'm liking this deal a lot right now

 

[Largent80]

Agree with Austin here. Just yesterday morning I started a T.E. thread. The prospects of going into camp with just Willson and Helfet was pretty scary, and the draft was fairly void of any rookie TE's that could come in and unseat either of those 2 even if we signed Moeaki back.

This was exactly what the doctor ordered. We get a proven tall pass catcher that must be respected for that 31st pick. To me, that is a steal. Then they throw us a 4th round bone to boot. Our money is made in the middle rounds and since the Harvin 4th became a 6th, we basically got it back PLUS a 6th.

Who is to say JS doesn't package up a few picks for a player they really want to get in the draft, or via trade?

This trade was fantastic.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Good points brought up by Byau. Solid points on both the pros and the cons side.

Here's my real issue with it though:

We gave up 542 points value in the draft to the Saints. That's an awful lot, considering we gave up almost the only thing left about our offensive line worth anything at all. Unless we somehow come into a FA windfall, our offensive line is going to be a bunch of backups competing with a bunch of rookies we acquire in the draft. That's a scary situation to be in, great TE acquisition or not.

I'd have been much more comfortable giving up 253 by trading them our second rounder for their sixth with that trade. Yes, it's not nearly the trade value New Orleans agreed to. Which is kinda my point. We'd still have a first rounder to negotiate with and get say another second rounder and a lower rounder to use on those rookies who will be protecting our $20 million/year quarterback.

 

[YYZHawksFan]

The more I think about this trade the more I like it more. Soft is a rather pejorative term to use IMO for anyone.

 

[DJrmb]

Everyone knew that the second half of the 1st round was weak this year. No way you would get Any Team to give you the full Hypothetical 600 point value for that pick. The point system is an ok starting point for evaluating draft pick trades but it is not perfect because the values go up and down based on the perceived amount of talent.

So we not only had to take partial value from New Orleans for that 600 points, but we had to throw Max Unger in to sweeten the deal as well?

Unger was the origin of the trade. Not Graham. The Saints wanted Unger and initially tried to offer up one of their WRs (no word on whether draft picks were involved in those discussions). Schneider decided to see if Graham was available, and Loomis indicated he was.

Yeah, I understand that. My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek there. Just saying I really think a lot of folks are way overvaluing what the Seahawks got in this trade for what they gave up.

I have high hopes for him. I just think we got the shorter end of this deal.

I think the problem here is we have completely different values on Max Unger. I was ready to move on from him and I'm glad to see him go to the Saints, a team I think better fits his skills as more a passing team than a run heavy team, and where he can hopefully pull things back together and stay on the field for them and get back to being one of the better centers in the league. So from my point of viewing I am ecstatic that we basically got a high 4th nearly 3rd round pick for a guy I would have been ready to cut bait on and use his salary elsewhere.

And then giving up a bottom pick in a weak 1st round draft for one of the best Receivers in the league who's still in his prime and has an absolutely awesome contract that is going to work in very favorably with little risk to the future cap is a No Brainer. I would do that all day every day.

You obviously have a much higher evaluation of Ungers effect on the offense, which is fine, it's your opinion as I have mine. Maybe yours is right. Maybe mine is. We will see this next season I guess.

 

[Largent80]

Russell's own legs have and always will be his "protection". We are a ZBS team and we will never be a pocket passing team with this regime and QB.

JS said it himself this morning, that they really like the youngsters we have already and they always draft o-line every year. As I said above, JS is not done.

 

[WendellWent]

Good points brought up by Byau. Solid points on both the pros and the cons side.

Here's my real issue with it though:

We gave up 542 points value in the draft to the Saints. That's an awful lot, considering we gave up almost the only thing left about our offensive line worth anything at all. Unless we somehow come into a FA windfall, our offensive line is going to be a bunch of backups competing with a bunch of rookies we acquire in the draft. That's a scary situation to be in, great TE acquisition or not.

I'd have been much more comfortable giving up 253 by trading them our second rounder for their sixth with that trade. Yes, it's not nearly the trade value New Orleans agreed to. Which is kinda my point. We'd still have a first rounder to negotiate with and get say another second rounder and a lower rounder to use on those rookies who will be protecting our $20 million/year quarterback.

Well, here's your problem. That old "draft value chart" went out the window with the CBA. Using it as a measuring stick is starting out with a faulty assumption.

 

[KitsapGuy]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/575676842750926849[/tweet]

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/575676842750926849[/tweet]

I thought we were already 5:1 favorites before the trade. And it's not surprising to see the 49ers fall that much, given their offseason moves.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Good points brought up by Byau. Solid points on both the pros and the cons side.

Here's my real issue with it though:

We gave up 542 points value in the draft to the Saints. That's an awful lot, considering we gave up almost the only thing left about our offensive line worth anything at all. Unless we somehow come into a FA windfall, our offensive line is going to be a bunch of backups competing with a bunch of rookies we acquire in the draft. That's a scary situation to be in, great TE acquisition or not.

I'd have been much more comfortable giving up 253 by trading them our second rounder for their sixth with that trade. Yes, it's not nearly the trade value New Orleans agreed to. Which is kinda my point. We'd still have a first rounder to negotiate with and get say another second rounder and a lower rounder to use on those rookies who will be protecting our $20 million/year quarterback.

I don't believe we gave up 542 points worth of actual player. I don't believe there will be a 600-point player available in this particular draft at pick #31.

If ever there was a draft to trade away your late first-round pick, this is it. The skill-position talent is very shallow.

Ask yourself: If in the 2015 draft a known commodity exactly like Jimmy Graham was available at pick #31, would you pull the trigger? The answer has to be a resounding "yes", particularly in this draft, and OL needs be damned.

Not many teams in the NFL are power-running teams, therefore not may teams in the NFL will select run blockers. They'll fall in the draft into our waiting hands.

Our pass blocking scheme is whatever our run-blocking line can manage, plus Wilson's feet and the threat of Marshawn Lynch. It's unconventional, but it works, mostly. Add to that the defensive choice between covering Graham and spying Wilson and we've effectively upgraded our OL.

 

[KitsapGuy]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/575676842750926849[/tweet]

I thought we were already 5:1 favorites before the trade. And it's not surprising to see the 49ers fall that much, given their offseason moves.

The oddsmakers at Bovada noticed, making the Seahawks 5/1 favorites to win Super Bowl 50, up from 11/2. The 49ers, following the departure of offensive lineman Mike Iupati and running back Frank Gore, along with the retirement of linebacker Patrick Willis, have fallen to 33/1 odds.

http://sea.247sports.com/Bolt/Graham-tr ... l-36119540

 

[DavidSeven]

Being optimistic about the trade and wondering if Graham could've been had for less are not mutually exclusive things. This is the same FO that gave up a 3rd and swapped their high 2nd for Charlie Whitehurst. They are not impervious to miscalculating market value.

That being said, I'm fully confident that this could end up being a net win for Seattle. But giving up a 1st, even a late one, isn't peanuts. It's not just about the value of that pick in isolation. There are other things you can do with it (i.e. trade down and acquire more picks at better values). If New Orleans truly wouldn't have budged off a 1st, then so be it. I'm on board. I just wonder.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Not many teams in the NFL are power-running teams, therefore not may teams in the NFL will select run blockers. They'll fall in the draft into our waiting hands.

That may be the case, but it's not very comforting when you look at the position the past few years. So many of those run blockers have fallen into our waiting hands in the draft that we're blowing up the line yet again and starting over.

A tall, pass-catching TE was definitely a need. Jimmy Graham is definitely someone who can fit that need. Ain't much good when Russell is scrambling too much to even pass to him.

He may be just what the doctor ordered, but one thing's for sure, here's a statement I don't want to see this next year from anyone who's fangirling over this trade right now:

"What good is our 6'7" TE if Russell can't even get him the ball before being sacked!"

 

[Scottemojo]

Not many teams in the NFL are power-running teams, therefore not may teams in the NFL will select run blockers. They'll fall in the draft into our waiting hands.

That may be the case, but it's not very comforting when you look at the position the past few years. So many of those run blockers have fallen into our waiting hands in the draft that we're blowing up the line yet again and starting over.

A tall, pass-catching TE was definitely a need. Jimmy Graham is definitely someone who can fit that need. Ain't much good when Russell is scrambling too much to even pass to him.

He may be just what the doctor ordered, but one thing's for sure, here's a statement I don't want to see this next year from anyone who's fangirling over this trade right now:

"What good is our 6'7" TE if Russell can't even get him the ball before being sacked!"

Prophetic.

 

[seatownlowdown]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/575676842750926849[/tweet]

I thought we were already 5:1 favorites before the trade. And it's not surprising to see the 49ers fall that much, given their offseason moves.

The oddsmakers at Bovada noticed, making the Seahawks 5/1 favorites to win Super Bowl 50, up from 11/2. The 49ers, following the departure of offensive lineman Mike Iupati and running back Frank Gore, along with the retirement of linebacker Patrick Willis, have fallen to 33/1 odds.

http://sea.247sports.com/Bolt/Graham-tr ... l-36119540

:stirthepot: someone go post that on the webzone, im already banned there

 

[kearly]

Yes, but did he have 63 players with a 1 and 2 grade?

That doesn't really refute Sailor's point though. His point is that Seattle sold what is functionally a #2 pick for #1 value. And he's right. Good moneyball move by JS.

And it's not like we are banking our draft on the #63 pick, Graham basically just became our #31 selection. A player that is waaaay better than the guys who will likely be around at that point. If Graham were in this draft, even at age 28, he'd go top 15 for sure.

As far as #63, Seattle got Golden Tate around that area of the draft. Lavonte David (who I wanted so badly) went around that spot. Eddie Lacy. And so on. It's very common for fringe 1st round talent to make it to the end of round two. If Seattle is willing to draft for BPA there, they'll probably get a heck of a player.

The second tier is typically several times larger than the 1st tier, and it leaves the board differently. You can't really compare the two. The 1st tier talents get gobbled up quick in a very predictable, BPA type fashion. Many of the 2nd tier talents are non-consensus, and may fall into the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounds in some cases. Not only will Seattle have 2nd tier talents available at #63, they will likely have them available at #95 and even at the pick the Saints gave us.

The only question is if those talents fit Seattle's blueprint. They might not. But the opportunity is definitely there, especially if Seattle is willing to move picks around to target their guys.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

I was slightly upset we didn't get Thomas but this trade nets us a better talent and at a lesser price since we wont have to rework his contract and Saints paid so much upfront already. Also hearing that Unger ' s next contract would be projected among the highest of OL salaries make this trade a safe bet. JS is so calculated.

 

[kearly]

That being said, I'm fully confident that this could end up being a net win for Seattle. But giving up a 1st, even a late one, isn't peanuts. It's not just about the value of that pick in isolation. There are other things you can do with it (i.e. trade down and acquire more picks at better values). If New Orleans truly wouldn't have budged off a 1st, then so be it. I'm on board. I just wonder.

True, you could turn a #31 pick into a bunch of mid round picks. In fact, that's what JS always wants to do with it when he's not dealing it for a player. Both are smart ways to utilize an asset that is nowhere near as valuable in reality as its "1st round" label makes it out to be.

But this year, Seattle has 11 or 12 picks, depending on compensatory. Turning a #31 into a bunch of mid-rounders would have less appeal this year. On top of that, it is widely considered to be a very weak draft this year.

I look at it this way. Last year, Seattle had the #32 pick and moved down to #40 for a 4th rounder (108th). This year, Seattle had the #31 pick and dealt it in a trade that netted them a 4th rounder (109th before comp picks). If Seattle hadn't made this trade, they'd be trying to do the 2014 trade again. If you factor the Saints pick coming back, it's basically as if Seattle owned the #40 pick in the 2nd round and dealt it with Max Unger for Graham.

It might be different if this was like the 2013 draft where the difference between the #10 pick and the #25 pick was almost nothing. Giving up that first for Harvin definitely hurt. But giving up a #31 in a draft like this where all the 1st tier guys will be gone in the teens is totally different. It's like giving up a 2nd rounder.