For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO

[Pandion Haliaetus]

So...I spent the last couple of days of finding all the athletic measures plus arm length and hand size (so tedious and unfulfilling for most part) of each player on the Seahawks Defense in 2013 and charting that information via excel.

It gave me a great chance to compare and contrast the players competing on the backend as well as just seeing what players stood out the most. What was astonishing was seeing the difference of athletic ability between Clemons and Irvin in their entry year. So I promptly for the first time ever looked at Chris Clemons career stats:

In retrospect:

1) Many admire Clemons for being athletic and compact, let’s look at his combine measures:
6-3, 236 pounds, 4.68 (40), 2.75 (20), 1. 72 (10), 7.48 3-Cone, 35 Vert, 9’08” Broad, 18 x225

2) Compared to Bruce Irvin’s results:
6-3, 245 pounds, 4.41 (40), 2.57 (20), 1.55 (10), 6.70 3-Cone, 33.5 Vert, 10’03” Broad, 23 x 225, (4.03 Shuttle)

In every athletic aspect except for the Vertical Jump, Bruce Irvin blew Chris Clemon’s out of the water, and did so weighting 9 pounds heavier.

Chris Clemons gained 18 pounds sometime during his first 6 years in the NFL to weigh in at 254 when he came to Seattle.

Bruce Irvin in 1 season (with help or not) has already gained 10-15 pounds to weigh in between 255-260 heading into his 2nd year.

3) It took Chris Clemons until his 4th year to registers 8 sacks in a season, he had 20 tackles, 8 sacks that season. In his first 6 years in the league before coming to Seattle he had only registered: 50 tackles and 20 sacks overall. Since Clemons wasn't active in his rookie year, I'll take it into account. In 5 years of activity, Clemons averaged 10 tackles and 4 sacks per season before coming to the Seahawks.

4) It took Bruce Irvin, his rookie season to register 9 sacks (1 in the post-season), imo, he has a decent chance to surpass 20 accumulative sacks even though he’ll only play in 12 games (health permitting). Irvin’s rookie season: 16 tackles, 8 sacks.

Chris Clemons wasn’t a success right away, it really wasn’t until he came to Seattle where he consistently got going but he already had 6 years accrued in the NFL and the Seahawks were his 4th team. He was a journeyman sack artist. Not necessarily the elite player we believe he is today.

In one season, Bruce Irvin has already matched Clemons’ best season pre-Seattle in which it took Clemons 4 years to accomplish.

So I don’t buy the negativity surrounding Irvin’s development. He’s already a better player athletically in almost every way, and statistically Irvin’s first season compares almost equally to Clemon’s best season in his first 6 years.

So in year 4 of Irvin’s development, I don’t doubt what so ever that he can become a quality LEO prospect.
After 6 years, I don’t doubt that Irvin can become a complete player on top of being a consistently elite pass-rusher.

Also, Cliff Avril, imo, is a great buy as he might be an even better LEO prospect than Clemons, today and not potentially.

CA: 6-027, 253 (260 now), 4.51 (40), 2.58 (20), 1.50 (10), 6.9 3-Cone, 9’09” Broad, 36.5 Vert, 27 x 225! (4.31 Shuttle)

CC: 6-3, 236 (254 now), 4.68 (40), 2.75 (20), 1. 72 (10), 7.48 3-Cone, 35 Vert, 9’08” Broad, 18 x225

BI: 6-3, 245 (255-60), 4.41 (40), 2.57 (20), 1.55 (10), 6.70 3-Cone, 33.5 Vert, 10’03” Broad, 23 x 225, (4.03 Shuttle)

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that once Clemons gets healthy: That Seahawks will still keep Avril as the Primary LEO, with Clemons platooning with Irvin in the Raheem Brock role, and Irvin getting snaps at SLB in passing situations. A very good situation to have when it comes to it, Seahawks can pretty much mix and match their pass-rushers in a variety of ways with high rate of success… O-lines will be hatin.

 

[Tical21]

Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.

 

[SouthSoundHawk]

Looks like somebodies got a case of the Muuuuundays.


That's some nice info you dug up on that comparison. It never occurred to me to compare Bruce and Clem, and the numbers all look like Bruce has LEO in his future. He's not going to be crowned boy king until Clem can no longer contribute at a high level.

 

[Subzero717]

It took you a couple days to compare two guys?

 

[jammerhawk]

I liked your post PH there is lots of good info, which is surprisingly hard to locate.

Don't agree completely with some of your conclusions regarding positions to played by different guys but do think the Seahawks have a talented and physical freak player in Irvin. I do completely agree with your conclusion he will become a top level DE or pass rush OLB. It takes time to develop those skills in the NFL and the physical requirements of the position are learned requirements added to physical talent and Irvin's physical talent sets him apart from the rest, he looks to have gained the weight and flashed uber skills at times last year, but lacked technique.

Changing directions slightly from the focus of your post I suspect the team is looking for different ways to get them all, Irvin, Avril, Clemons, Bennett, possibly the rookie Hill on the field at the same time. I wonder if this is why Pete has publicly indicated the team is looking at both Irvin and Avril situationally at OLB. I wonder if the team may show us some pure 3-4 looks with a hard core group of pass rushers in pure nickel situations?

I think at long last we may finally get to see a pass rush that is constant but varied b/c of the acquired talent the team has now put together. If nothing else the team has a lot of different parts from which to put some varied schemes together. The talent is here to morph schemes easily. I'm really curious as to how they bring these guys together and most effectively use them.

 

[Johnny]

I love BrUUUUCE!

He will become one of the top tiered pass rushers in the league by the end of this year.. He has the size 250-255 lbs and the lighting speed that Clem doen't have I mean Clem is a pretty fast DE, but Irvin is on a whole other level when it comes to the jump off the snap.

 

[CANHawk]

Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.

OP is clearly a stats guy. Why watch a whole game when you can just read the box scores...?

 

[SalishHawkFan]

PH, you can't make the comparisons you're making because there's a REASON Clemons was a nobody until Carroll picked him up: Scheme. Carroll new Clemons would be the archetypical LEO pass rusher. He wasn't being used the same way up until then in his career.

Comparing Irvin to pre-Seattle Clemons is like comparing apples to moon rocks.

 

[jammerhawk]

Salish you are logically right, but I think the point is Irvin has shown himself to be ahead of Clemons even though Clem's stats are coming in this scheme while Irvin has been used in another role.

I suspect PH's point is that Irvin has similar but better measureables when compared to Clem and has started well as DE while showing he'd likely grow into a Clemons type Leo. Irvin fits Pete's scheme but will need the usual time to grow into the best role seen for his exceptional athletic ability.

Time will tell with irvin.

 

[HawkAroundTheClock]

It took you a couple days to compare two guys?

So...I spent the last couple of days of finding all the athletic measures ... of each player on the Seahawks Defense in 2013...

Jeez Louise, guys. I for one enjoyed the side-by-side comparison of measurables. I would not conclude that it means one player will become better than another, but it does illustrate the physical starting points. As for Bruce, many are waiting to see how he absorbs the coaching and if/when he can adopt the nuances and artistry of pass rushing along with his strength and speed.

For the critics here, it really doesn't hurt you in any way to recognize that someone spent some time on a post. It's okay to just say you disagree and provide a few valid counterpoints. Or we could all just sit around being sarcastic douches and make subjective statements and leave it at that. I guess that works too. (<-- see, sarcastic douchebaggery example right there)

 

[ivotuk]

Nice work Pandion.

Bruce was in a totally different situation too as he was not a full time starter in his rookie year. Irvin's athleticism is phenomenal though.

As to Chris, I think he's a "good steady performer," not elite but slightly above average, and that is based on his run-stopping ability more so than his pass rushing ability. Clemons is a legitimate 3 down player. And that is why Atlanta won that game, because they ran at Bruce. But "BI" is pissed now and is doing everything he can to make sure that doesn't happen again. He got a taste of playoff success in his rookie year and he wants more!

I was a little surprised at Avril's numbers, I knew he was pretty good but wow! Especially the bench press! Do you happen to have arm length numbers handy?

Our strength this year is going to be the defensive line, and that will make the rest of the defense look good. My reasoning is that the run D will be vastly improved with the addition of Jordan Hill and Mr. Williams. With Bruce bulking up, and Bennett in the fold, that should make a difference in run stopping ability because we won't be so dependent on our one run stopping End, CC.

Keep up the posts man!

Oh, and nobody can base a valid opinion solely on Avril's performance in Detroit, that whole D-Line under performed last year and that is directly attributable to shitty coaching.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.

Dude, get the hell off my back.

1. You're clearly missing the most logical argument against Chris Clemons, stud or not, which I clearly have to spell out for you.

Do you absolutely expect Clemons to come back 100% on a 31 year old knee, and back to form right away.

Logically, I don't.

And don't put words in my mouth as if I'm hating on Clemons, because I'm not, he's been a premier pass-rusher in the NFL in his time here. I know this. I just won't give him the greatest of expectations to return to form, and there is nothing wrong with bringing him along slow...so again logically the Raheem Brock role is a perfect fit for him in his situation.

Perhaps, to wipe the tears from your face, I should have said: Avril/Clemons platoon at LEO, Clemons/Irvin platoon Raheem Brock role, Irvin/Avril platoon SLB at times.

2. Cliff Avril is a great fit for the LEO role, I'm not going to hold anything against Avril on a Lions team that underperformed, the guy is an above quality pass-rusher, and has the size, speed, and strength to be quite effective as a LEO in the rush game and in our scheme. Sure there is a learning curve, but as long as he's excels at position, which remains to be seen, I don't think the Seahawks will mess with that success.

You honestly believe the Seahawks shelled out 15 million for Avril to be a role-player.
But thanks Tical for the incredible over-reaction I truly applaud you.

TO OTHERS:

It really isn't about the stats but it is as I use them to support my idea. However, I was just honestly trying to show the growth of each player and that not long ago Chris Clemons was where Bruce Irvin is today but with Clemons probably a little further behind in development in year to year comparison from League entry.

And that Bruce Irvin has a lot of that athleticism and talent that made Clemons so appealing to Pete Carroll in the first place. Pass-rush Ability. 40% of Clemon’s career Tackles prior to coming to Seattle were Sacks.

Its not about who is better than who, I ONLY WANTED TO PORTRAY, that contrary to some belief that Irvin with plenty of hard work can grow, develop, and improve into a good to great all-around LEO prospect. Likely not any time soon but down the road a couple of years from now… I can see it happening.

 

[NFL_Football2013]

Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.

Dude, get the hell off my back.

1. You're clearly missing the most logical argument against Chris Clemons, stud or not, which I clearly have to spell out for you.

Do you absolutely expect Clemons to come back 100% on a 31 year old knee, and back to form right away.

Logically, I don't.

And don't put words in my mouth as if I'm hating on Clemons, because I'm not, he's been a premier pass-rusher in the NFL in his time here. I know this. I just won't give him the greatest of expectations to return to form, and there is nothing wrong with bringing him along slow...so again logically the Raheem Brock role is a perfect fit for him in his situation.

Perhaps, to wipe the tears from your face, I should have said: Avril/Clemons platoon at LEO, Clemons/Irvin platoon Raheem Brock role, Irvin/Avril platoon SLB at times.

2. Cliff Avril is a great fit for the LEO role, I'm not going to hold anything against Avril on a Lions team that underperformed, the guy is an above quality pass-rusher, and has the size, speed, and strength to be quite effective as a LEO in the rush game and in our scheme. Sure there is a learning curve, but as long as he's excels at position, which remains to be seen, I don't think the Seahawks will mess with that success.

You honestly believe the Seahawks shelled out 15 million for Avril to be a role-player.
But thanks Tical for the incredible over-reaction I truly applaud you.

TO OTHERS:

It really isn't about the stats but it is as I use them to support my idea. However, I was just honestly trying to show the growth of each player and that not long ago Chris Clemons was where Bruce Irvin is today but with Clemons probably a little further behind in development in year to year comparison from League entry.

And that Bruce Irvin has a lot of that athleticism and talent that made Clemons so appealing to Pete Carroll in the first place. Pass-rush Ability. 40% of Clemon’s career Tackles prior to coming to Seattle were Sacks.

Its not about who is better than who, I ONLY WANTED TO PORTRAY, that contrary to some belief that Irvin with plenty of hard work can grow, develop, and improve into a good to great all-around LEO prospect. Likely not any time soon but down the road a couple of years from now… I can see it happening.

It was 13 million over 2 years, 6.5 a season.....yeah role player for sure

 

[Clayfighter]

I appreciate the time and effort that went into this PH. I'm glad somebody is putting in the work and I get to reap the reading benefits! :th2thumbs: That being said, I am pleased by the moves the Hawks have made recently to bolster the pass rush. I think if Irvin can learn and get his mind in line with his enormous physical talents, he will be dominant.

 

[Tical21]

Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.

I would like to see what Avril does in our scheme before that declaration would be fact. Before Clemons came here he wasn't anything special except Pete knew he would be a perfect fit for the role he wanted in him. Avril seems much the same to me. Remember PC/JS really only go for players that may not be "great" by the accepted standards but can and are dynamic in OUR scheme specifically.

 

[Seahawker86]

Chris Clemons has a DEVELOPED talent. Bruce has RAW talent. two complete different things. maybe Bruce will develop more, maybe he won't. Only time will tell. Yes, he does have the physical attributes that makes you think he has what it takes, but this game is also about Technique and having the mentality to play the position. That's what he needs to develop. Again, only time will tell

 

[Hawks46]

Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.

Perfect example of why you're wrong: Lofa Tatupu. He was too small and too slow, and we took him too early (yes, sarcasm on the last part). But, Ruskell saw in him great intangibles and instincts and leadership qualities and it worked out. The problem is, Tatupu actually was slightly undersized and too slow for our scheme. When he tried to bulk up, it caused him no end of problems to his legs.

Physical measurables DO matter. It's not the end all be all, but to completely invalidate them isn't all that bright either. Thing about intagibles (work ethic, ability to adjust, maturity, etc. ) is that you really can't gauge them or quantify them other than watching someone go through things. Personally, I think intangibles are extremely important; borderline the most important thing in QBs. When you start getting to other skill positions, physical skill and athleticism can many times trump intangibles. Sure, guy that lack them wash out of the league, but there are also guys like Cromartie from the Jets who is a major dumbass but still is elite.

 

[kearly]

Irvin has the athleticism to be not only a LEO, but a great one. Last season though, he lacked three things which kept him from reaching his potential: size, technique, and most importantly, instincts. Everyone needs to remember that the LEO position was invented as a bit of a LB/DE hybrid position, at USC Pete used players like Clay Mathews in the role. A big reason why Clemons took off as a LEO was because he had played linebacker pretty much his whole life before coming to Seattle- he had over a decade of football experience from high school on up to develop his linebacker instincts. Clemons has always been an average-ish athlete but looks dominant because his technique and instincts are terrific.

Irvin has never played linebacker. He played a tiny bit of safety in high school (and I think briefly in community college), but at WVU he played DE and even played 3-4 DE. The coaches at WVU didn't try to coach him up at all they just wanted to use his extreme athleticism, similar to how Chip Kelly uses some of his players at Oregon. So those instincts never really developed and it really showed last season. That doesn't mean they can't develop (though it needs to be noted- Irvin is already 26 this season). I think part of the reason they are moving Irvin into more of a DE/LB hybrid role is to help him develop those instincts.

Irvin also lacks technique, as again he wasn't coached up basically at all before he came to the NFL, but that's also potentially correctable. Let's see what Dan Quinn can do.

Irvin was undersized last year, but added a lot of muscle this offseason. That's good news.

For all three of Irvin's obstacles, I see the coaching and strength training staff taking measures to help Irvin grow and develop (role switch, weight gain, hiring a great former D-Line coach in Quinn). I'm not down on Irvin at all, but it's simply a fact that Irvin wasn't a LEO last season, and might not be for a while still. Even Avril is kind of a fringe LEO, but he's much more of one than Irvin currently is and you can understand why Seattle threw some pretty decent money in Avril's direction to come here.

 

[jammerhawk]

Good Post! Well written.