Are we being unfair to our young talent?

jeremiah

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Uncle Si":391rfc7g said:
xray":391rfc7g said:
SoulfishHawk":391rfc7g said:
And if they get injured, cut them immediately :stirthepot:

Nope...if they get injured keep them until their contract is up at full pay. CJ come to mind. Now that's a fantasy football player .

Full pay on a rookie deal is barely anything. You're not addressing the issue you're trying to make a point about

You cannot cut an injured player until he is healthy. You can place them on IR or deactivate them.
 

jeremiah

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AgentDib":3qnv9x2x said:
Sgt. Largent":3qnv9x2x said:
If you pick a RB in the first round, he better damn well ball out from game #1..........and Penny hasn't. Is that fair? Idk, maybe we drafted him too high, no one would be all over him if he was a 2nd or 3rd round pick like many thought was his true place in the draft.
Does the following chart help you determine whether it's fair or not?
2019 RBs

Lumping Penny and Barkely together into the same "first round RB" category is a poor simplification that only obscures the truth. There's almost no difference between the #32 and #33 pick in terms of draft capital and salary, with the only real difference being a benefit to the #32 pick in terms of a potential 5th year option.

Penny will likely last longer, and be more productive going forward than Barkley. Saquon will likely be burned out like Johnson in AZ by the time Penney is in years 5-9. It was a wasted pick by the Giants, Penny was not. The number 1 predictor of RB success, is a rock solid O line. The Seahawks are making do on glue and staples. Brown is old, the right side is injury prone, our Center is not proven. Give Seattle an great O line and we are #1-3 in NFL offense with Penny and Russ. The difference is the O line every time. They really need nothing but a great O line and the current D and they are guaranteed a NFC championship game material. They are better than LA, they are a quality pass rush away from legendary status IMO if the O line is there, healthy and steady.
 

jeremiah

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Scorpion05":29zzs6p7 said:
@MontanaHawk05 Tedric is more often than not in position. Pete doesn't want his Free Safeties taking too many risks. The fact of the matter is, Tedric holds down the position at a very solid level. Elite? Of course not. But we're really taking things for granted if we're complaining about him. What you hope for with MOST of your players, especially on defense is that you don't hear their names too often negatively. That's usually the sign of solid play in coverage

@Sgt. Largent Again, I think that's a gross overstatement. We have a really deluded view of draft picks as fans, not just our fans, but fans across the league.

If an NFL team can get a QUALITY starter in the first round, that's great. A star? Even better. There's maybe 2 or 3 bonafide stars in the 1st round every year, and some of them have great rookie seasons then fizzle out. Others break out down the road.

And with Penny, you can't even argue that he's had two or three good plays. In truth, he's had several in spots. Take a look at 0:40, or at 3:25(inside run for 5 yards), or even his one handed catch at 3:48. That's a talented, shifty RB in space with home run ability.

[youtube]rBJE-YDR4GY[/youtube]

Even looking at the video below, his inside run at 1:39, or his toss sweep at 1:54, that's elite quickness and deceptive football speed. Carson can't do that. Or at 2:27. His ability to move in space without losing too much speed is very underrated.

[youtube]zw0DRSi5t9s[/youtube]

This forum is literally wasting all day critiquing him as a power back, rather than as a Christian McCaffrey, Alvin Kamara type back. Which is what he is. Carson cannot catch like him, or run routes like him, or move in space like him. Let's actually critique him logically
]


EXACTLY
 

justafan

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I have too high of expectations for Dickson. I dont care about cool spins or cute kicks. When we are deep in our territory I dont want 25 yrd punts. Drop them inside the 15 when you get a chance,

Yesterday he craps the bed but came back and drops some good punts to pin them deep. But if you are an all pro punter you dont miss as many as he has this year.
 

Mad Dog

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justafan":cg633fqb said:
I have too high of expectations for Dickson. I dont care about cool spins or cute kicks. When we are deep in our territory I dont want 25 yrd punts. Drop them inside the 15 when you get a chance,

Yesterday he craps the bed but came back and drops some good punts to pin them deep. But if you are an all pro punter you dont miss as many as he has this year.

Admittedly almost every player on offense also crapped the bed at one point. Even our MVP candidate Russell Wilson made an egregious error on that airmail ball.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Mad Dog":2k0kjtr6 said:
justafan":2k0kjtr6 said:
I have too high of expectations for Dickson. I dont care about cool spins or cute kicks. When we are deep in our territory I dont want 25 yrd punts. Drop them inside the 15 when you get a chance,

Yesterday he craps the bed but came back and drops some good punts to pin them deep. But if you are an all pro punter you dont miss as many as he has this year.

Admittedly almost every player on offense also crapped the bed at one point. Even our MVP candidate Russell Wilson made an egregious error on that airmail ball.

Not everyone on offense has crapped the bed pretty much the entire year like Dickson.

Let's be honest, he's been AWFUL this year. Not sure what the heck's going on with him, but he's not even close to the Pro Bowl punter this team drafted and is depending on to help us win games. In fact, he's put our defense in many bad situations with terrible punts.

I'd honestly like someone to ask Pete about Dickson, he's that concerning for me.
 

TwistedHusky

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Last year, our special teams were godawful.

Dickson would boom it, and it seemed half the time our garbage coverage team allowed the returner 40 yds.

It was upsetting. He might have been outkicking the coverage but why was he kicking in bounds in the first place?

It feels like, this year, they are trying to get him to not have the ball travel as far, but with the better coverage this year they seemed to have missed the boat. Definitely feels like he is kicking it differently and it is not outside the realm of possibility this is due to pressure to do so.

Would rather he focus on booming the ball and if we get a touchback? So what? Because the new approach sucks and I doubt all the blame rests on Dickson here.
 

knownone

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Some of these Lynch comparisons are riddled with revisionist history. Lynch was a pro-bowl alternate as rookie, and a pro-bowler in his second season. He had a combined 2700 yards from scrimmage and 16 TDs in his first two seasons. He was not a guy who needed things to ‘click’, his issues were entirely off the football field.
 

Sgt. Largent

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TwistedHusky":1puauwm9 said:
It feels like, this year, they are trying to get him to not have the ball travel as far, but with the better coverage this year they seemed to have missed the boat. Definitely feels like he is kicking it differently and it is not outside the realm of possibility this is due to pressure to do so..

Maybe. Feels to me, as with Meyers Dickson just has a case of the yips and is letting the pressure of not doing well get to him, and it's affecting his kicks.

If Pete is giving him too much instruction on EXACTLY where and how far he wants the punts to go? Then he needs to knock it off and just tell Dickson to cut loose and let it rip.

Enough already, dude's way too talented to be punting this poorly.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Dickson definitely has had an up and down year. Was really nice to see him pin them at around the 2 yard line twice yesterday. Exactly what he was doing on a regular basis last year. But overall, hopefully he gets a lot more consistent the rest of the season, we need him. The field position shift was a big key on Sunday.
 

Attyla the Hawk

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Scorpion05":332u8a2k said:
Lol wait what?

RB is a position that can develop like any position. If it wasn't, then late round or undrafted picks would never flourish into top 5 running backs.

I can also provide a few examples of RBs who didn't truly break out until they got the reps, or who took a few years to evolve. Ahman Green, Brian Westbrook, and Derrick Henry comes to mind.

I can't speak to those examples except Henry. Henry was just sidelined by Murray having a career year. Nothing to be done about that.

I'd otherwise agree, RBs come into the league ready to go immediately. Further, the inverse also appears true (caveat being they have legitimate opportunity to start). Really it's overwhelmingly easy to demonstrate this to be true.

We could start at 2017. Since it allows us some track record after a 'developing' season. I'll limit to first 4 rounds

Green = Ready from day 1, or first opportunity or Never developed. Red = developed

Fournette
McCaffery
Cook
Mixon
Kamara
Hunt
Foreman
Conner
Perine
Cohen
Pumphery
Gallman
Mack (behind Frank Gore year 1)


2016

Elliott
Henry
Drake (was behind Ajayi)
Procise
Ervin
Dixon
Booker


2015:

Gurley
Gordon
Yeldon
Abdullah
Coleman (timeshared with Freeman)
Johnson
Johnson
Jones
Langford
Allen
Davis



Going back three successive drafts, and I can't find a legitimate example of any back who developed into a quality starter a year removed from being drafted. I do see some examples of guys who emerged after year one, but always had a top tier veteran performing at or near pro bowl levels keeping them sidelined.

Even eyeballing 2018 class, it looks like the same pattern. Either you are good day one or you are a replacement level placeholder for the next starter. And from the looks of it, replacement level starters don't sideline guys who have talent even day one.
 

bbsplitter

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I think we are all forgetting that the coaching staff sort-of were thinking Carson would suck coming back from that injury. If that had been the case, and Penny was the bell cow, I don't think we would be having a lot of these conversations.

The problem with Penny is not how he has played but how many opportunities he has had to play.
 

Sac

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RiverDog":3tvdti9j said:
No one was lumping Penny and Barkley together.

Someone was, they looked pretty damn similar in college.

[youtube]f_THDxZhGrs[/youtube]
 
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