Another Massage NFL Story..

[Ostatehawk]

I very much doubt that high end spas feel the need to explain those things to customers or have signs posted that sexually inappropriate behavior isn't allowed. Probably because most people already understand that type of stuff isn't acceptable or tolerated and may very well get you in trouble with the law (sexual misconduct). Men shouldn't need these things explained to them and clearly posted to know they shouldn't act in a sexually inappropriate manner.

I've been to a massage therapist before. I didn't need it explained to me or to be clearly posted to know that I wasn't supposed to whip my dick out and expect to be "serviced".

Seems possible Tucker did NOT get the memo.

 

[Rat]

There are any number of reasons they might not report his behavior to the police. These things are difficult to prove and maybe they don't feel like dealing with the blowback from accusations made of a local sports legend. Also, they probably deal with this crap all the time. Maybe they've tried contacting authorities on prior occasions, and they're not taken seriously because some people claim they're "of questionable moral character" based solely on their profession.

From what I understand, he has been banned from several establishments in the past, and these six women aren't even connected. It'd be a bit of coincidence that they just all had the idea to go after this one guy. Yes, the claims need to be thoroughly investigated, but this is all a very, very bad look for Tucker.

 

[rjdriver]

I want to know if they have in place procedures and policies that advise customers of expected behavior.

I think the burden of realizing sexual assault is wrong falls squarely on the individual, not the business.

Do they have signage noting that soliciting prostitution is illegal?

It’s not? I had no idea, because I’ve never seen a posted sign in a business establishment.

What kind of attire do their therapists dress in?

I don’t think women are responsible for curtailing a mans inner rapist. They can dress how they want.

If, for example, a massage therapist allows clients to completely undress before a session and dresses provocatively herself, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for her if a customer goes a little too far.

I actually do have sympathy for victims of rape and sexual assault.



I am not saying there are no questionable aspects of this case, there are. I’m not saying Justin Tucker committed any felonious activity. You are a GREAT poster with regards to Seahawks content, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on other topics.

 

[Chapow]

Yeah, maybe. I've never been to a spa so I wouldn't know one way or another. But even doctor's offices in the examination rooms have disclaimers that clearly states the ground rules, ie inappropriate, aggressive behavior, etc., won't be tolerated. I would think that a spa, in the same general health care business as doctor's clinics, would have something similar, especially when one considers the reputation that the industry as a whole has. And what about their policy on how their clients are to be clothed? Gym trunks? Hospital gowns? A towel?

I do agree with you about Tucker and his expectations, if that's what they were. If he went in there with an agenda, then I have zero sympathy for him. But we're a long way from being able to come to that conclusion with any degree of confidence. I still want to know why if it was so bad for a licensed therapist to spill her guts about it to some random newspaper reporter 8-12 years later, why it wasn't bad enough to report it to the police.

This thing smells to high heaven.

*Emphasis mine*

It's very common that victims of sexual assault or other forms of sexual misconduct don't report it. There are many reasons. Embarrassment, shame, humiliation, fear of retaliation, social stigma, fear that they won't believed, fear that the authorities won't do anything about it anyway, fear that they'll be labeled a slut, fear that people will think that it was kind of their fault anyway due to how they were dressed or whatever (in other words, victim blaming and/or shaming), fear that some people believe that if a woman is a massage therapist then she must be of questionable moral character anyway, etc.

Then there's the fact that these types of crimes are very difficult to investigate or prove in a court of law. From a quick Google search,

"It's generally a private act in dispute, so you don't have witnesses except people talking about the parties' mental states later on, and there often isn't any physical evidence beyond evidence of a sexual encounter."

As far as why report it now? Who knows? Maybe they found out it happened to other women too and it made them feel empowered enough to speak up now that they know they aren't alone? Maybe they feel like people might actually believe them now that they aren't alone? I really don't know, but just because you or I don't know doesn't mean they don't have a valid reason.

And to be clear, I have no ideal if these particular allegations are true or not and I'm not throwing Tucker under the bus here. I'm just commenting on the more general subject of why women don't report these kinds of things.

 

[RiverDog]

There are any number of reasons they might not report his behavior to the police. These things are difficult to prove and maybe they don't feel like dealing with the blowback from accusations made of a local sports legend. Also, they probably deal with this crap all the time. Maybe they've tried contacting authorities on prior occasions, and they're not taken seriously because some people claim they're "of questionable moral character" based solely on their profession.

From what I understand, he has been banned from several establishments in the past, and these six women aren't even connected. It'd be a bit of coincidence that they just all had the idea to go after this one guy. Yes, the claims need to be thoroughly investigated, but this is all a very, very bad look for Tucker.

Tucker's being banned from the spas is based on the word of the therapist(s). It needs to be corroborated by someone other than one of the six therapists.

The therapist also alleges a yearslong pattern of abuse and misconduct. You mean to tell me that they put up with his behavior for years but suddenly, 8-12 years later, it's no longer acceptable and bad enough to tell some news reporter about it and ruin this guy's life? That seems to me to be highly unusual. Doesn't it to you?

 

[RiverDog]

I actually do have sympathy for victims of rape and sexual assault.

Thanks for the kudos, and back at ya!

I, too, have a great deal of sympathy for victims of rape and sexual assault. But that's not what Tucker's being accused of. He's being accused of sexual misconduct, which can include everything from an unwanted bump in the elevator to the telling of blonde jokes.

And like I've said repeatedly, I am not necessarily defending Tucker. I'm just saying that there isn't a lot to go on, at least not from what we know now. This isn't like Deshaun Watson.

 

[RiverDog]

*Emphasis mine*

It's very common that victims of sexual assault or other forms of sexual misconduct don't report it. There are many reasons. Embarrassment, shame, humiliation, fear of retaliation, social stigma, fear that they won't believed, fear that the authorities won't do anything about it anyway, fear that they'll be labeled a slut, fear that people will think that it was kind of their fault anyway due to how they were dressed or whatever (in other words, victim blaming and/or shaming), fear that some people believe that if a woman is a massage therapist then she must be of questionable moral character anyway, etc.

Then there's the fact that these types of crimes are very difficult to investigate or prove in a court of law. From a quick Google search,


As far as why report it now? Who knows? Maybe they found out it happened to other women too and it made them feel empowered enough to speak up now that they know they aren't alone? Maybe they feel like people might actually believe them now that they aren't alone? I really don't know, but just because you or I don't know doesn't mean they don't have a valid reason.

And to be clear, I have no ideal if these particular allegations are true or not and I'm not throwing Tucker under the bus here. I'm just commenting on the more general subject of why women don't report these kinds of things.

I understand why women don't report sex crimes. I've worked as a supervisor for 40 years in an industry that employes about 65% females.

But there's still a lot of questions I have. Why tell the news reporter? Did they tell anyone else, such as their employer? Certainly, they would have had to report it to them if Tucker was banned from two spas. Has the news reporter tracked down the employers and confirmed that Tucker had been banned? If not, why not? Are the women getting paid for their story?

And I'm not necessarily defending Tucker, either. If he's innocent, then he'd better hustle his ass to his attorney and file a lawsuit against the women and the publication that ran the story. If not, then he allows it to stand.

 

[Chapow]

Tucker's being banned from the spas is based on the word of the therapist(s). It needs to be corroborated by someone other than one of the six therapists.

The therapist also alleges a yearslong pattern of abuse and misconduct. You mean to tell me that they put up with his behavior for years but suddenly, 8-12 years later, it's no longer acceptable and bad enough to tell some news reporter about it and ruin this guy's life? That seems to me to be highly unusual. Doesn't it to you?

Well, we're talking about a wealthy, popular NFL football player vs a massage therapist. It certainly seems plausible to me that the massage therapist might feel powerless to do anything about his behavior in that situation.

 

[Chapow]

I understand why women don't report sex crimes. I've worked as a supervisor for 40 years in an industry that employes about 65% females.

But there's still a lot of questions I have. Why tell the news reporter? Did they tell anyone else, such as their employer? Certainly, they would have had to report it to them if Tucker was banned from two spas. Has the news reporter tracked down the employers and confirmed that Tucker had been banned? If not, why not? Are the women getting paid for their story?

I agree that we have no where near enough information to come to any conclusions on these specific allegations. Tucker may be innocent of everything he's being accused of, but on the other hand, he might not be. I don't think just dismissing these allegations, or not taking them seriously, because you find some things about them questionable is the right approach though. And quite frankly, this is one of the biggest reasons why these types of things are often unreported, fear that people won't believe them and then there will be consequences for speaking up.

And I'm not necessarily defending Tucker, either. If he's innocent, then he'd better hustle his ass to his attorney and file a lawsuit against the women and the publication that ran the story. If not, then he allows it to stand.

Getting sued by a rich, popular, NFL football player. That's some pretty serious consequences for speaking up. Especially for someone that probably doesn't have anywhere near the resources that Tucker has. It also sounds like something someone might do anyway even if he's guilty of those allegations in an effort to make it appear that he is the one being wronged here.

 

[RiverDog]

I agree that we have no where near enough information to come to any conclusions on these specific allegations. Tucker may be innocent of everything he's being accused of, but on the other hand, he might not be. I don't think just dismissing these allegations, or not taking them seriously, because you find some things about them questionable is the right approach though. And quite frankly, this is one of the biggest reasons why these types of things are often unreported, fear that people won't believe them and then there will be consequences for speaking up.



Getting sued by a rich, popular, NFL football player. That's some pretty serious consequences for speaking up. Especially for someone that probably doesn't have anywhere near the resources that Tucker has. It also sounds like something someone might do anyway even if he's guilty of those allegations in an effort to make it appear that he is the one being wronged here.

All of what you say is very possible, perhaps likely.

But it's also possible that the reason why the woman/women didn't want to speak up was because they were in the country illegally, and if they didn't perform the sex acts as instructed by their employer, he'd call ICE on them and have them deported.

There's roughly 30,000 massage parlors in the US. RubMaps, an adult website, has 25,000 of them listed. My previous link indicated that there were 9,000 that are illegitimate, which would make roughly 1 in 3. It's a dirty business.

I'd post links, but I'm afraid it might be against our forum rules. But my point is that this is a very sketchy business, almost like illicit drugs, and we should not trust what people engaged in it might have to say unless it can be corroborated.

 

[hgwellz12]

Yeah, maybe. I've never been to a spa so I wouldn't know one way or another. But even doctor's offices in the examination rooms have disclaimers that clearly states the ground rules, ie inappropriate, aggressive behavior, etc., won't be tolerated. I would think that a spa, in the same general health care business as doctor's clinics, would have something similar, especially when one considers the reputation that the industry as a whole has. And what about their policy on how their clients are to be clothed? Gym trunks? Hospital gowns? A towel?

I do agree with you about Tucker and his expectations, if that's what they were. If he went in there with an agenda, then I have zero sympathy for him. But we're a long way from being able to come to that conclusion with any degree of confidence. I still want to know why if it was so bad for a licensed therapist to spill her guts about it to some random newspaper reporter 8-12 years later, why it wasn't bad enough to report it to the police.

This thing smells to high heaven.

You're telling me you never heard of a victim coming forward years later? I don't buy it. You seem to be trying really hard to convince yourself the ladies are the ones lying, and I don't really see a 'good' reason why.
Hell, this victim came forward 20 whole years later. Do you doubt she's telling the truth?

 

[RiverDog]

You're telling me you never heard of a victim coming forward years later? I don't buy it. You seem to be trying really hard to convince yourself the ladies are the ones lying, and I don't really see a 'good' reason why.
Hell, this victim came forward 20 whole years later. Do you doubt she's telling the truth?

Please, read what I write and try not to put words into my mouth. I and NOT telling you that I never heard of a victim coming forward years later. What I'm telling you is that there are a number of reasons why an alleged victim might not have come forward in a timely manner and gave you some examples.

I am NOT saying that the women aren't telling the truth. What I am saying is that given all the factors, such as the length of elapsed time, the types of businesses these complaints are coming from, and the website that ran the story, that we should ask for corroboration from another source before we assume guilt.

Are you old enough to remember the Duke lacrosse rape hoax? If not, it's worth a read:

Duke lacrosse rape hoax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And once again, I am NOT defending Justin Tucker. It would appear that he must have done something to upset these women. I personally think that it's more likely than not that something inappropriate happened. After all, there are 6 of them. I'm just not ready to buy the whole story hook, line, and sinker.

 

[RiverDog]

Oh, and one other thing about these "high end" massage spas. A family member of mine once patronized one of them, not an AMP, and claims that sex was on the menu should he have wanted it. The point is that just because they're so-called high end doesn't mean that their employees and customers never get romantic.

 

[Cyrus12]

3 more accusers...same details...his career is done.

More accusations against Ravens' Tucker emerge

Nine Baltimore-area massage therapists have accused Ravens kicker Justin Tucker of sexually inappropriate behavior, according to a report by The Baltimore Banner.

www.espn.com

 

[Loganpatch]

Maybe he and Watson can start a new league. National Tuggin Chuck League?

 

[RiverDog]

3 more accusers...same details...his career is done.

More accusations against Ravens' Tucker emerge

Nine Baltimore-area massage therapists have accused Ravens kicker Justin Tucker of sexually inappropriate behavior, according to a report by The Baltimore Banner.

www.espn.com

Thanks for the link.

The evidence is starting to pile up. In cases like this one, once one or two come forward, the dam breaks and a bunch more start coming out of the woodwork. We'll see how Tucker responds, but it's not looking good.

 

[IndyHawk]

Yeah, maybe. I've never been to a spa so I wouldn't know one way or another. But even doctor's offices in the examination rooms have disclaimers that clearly states the ground rules, ie inappropriate, aggressive behavior, etc., won't be tolerated. I would think that a spa, in the same general health care business as doctor's clinics, would have something similar, especially when one considers the reputation that the industry as a whole has. And what about their policy on how their clients are to be clothed? Gym trunks? Hospital gowns? A towel?

I do agree with you about Tucker and his expectations, if that's what they were. If he went in there with an agenda, then I have zero sympathy for him. But we're a long way from being able to come to that conclusion with any degree of confidence. I still want to know why if it was so bad for a licensed therapist to spill her guts about it to some random newspaper reporter 8-12 years later, why it wasn't bad enough to report it to the police.

This thing smells to high heaven.

I agree.
You either report it then or no crime happened, I'm sick of
seeing stuff coming out years after the fact.
It really seems like a money grab at best.

 

[IndyHawk]

Thanks for the link.

The evidence is starting to pile up. In cases like this one, once one or two come forward, the dam breaks and a bunch more start coming out of the woodwork. We'll see how Tucker responds, but it's not looking good.

Yet this is weird, many years after the fact.

 

[RiverDog]

I agree.
You either report it then or no crime happened, I'm sick of
seeing stuff coming out years after the fact.
It really seems like a money grab at best.

Yeah, it's like the Kavanaugh confirmation from a few years back. There's a reason why we have a statute of limitations.

I, too, am troubled by the amount of time that has elapsed. That and in these recent 3 allegations, their boss said (through his lawyer) that the girls never reported Tucker's alleged behavior to him. Now is he lying as if the girls did report it to him and he didn't report it to the cops, that he could be in some sort of legal jeopardy for not reporting a suspected crime? Was he afraid that if he called the cops on a client that it would hurt his business?

The other thing I'm wondering about is if these spas that Tucker frequented advertised in the various adult websites and if there are any reviews. There's a lot of them here in WA that have some very explicit ads.

 

[NoGain]

This is purely anecdotal, and something like it has been mentioned before, but I've been to a bunch of massage parlors with back and nerve damage issues over the years, all paid for by my insurance company. I've never once entertained the notion that the place was anywhere but a place to get a massage. And I don't consider myself to be an unaware person about such things. Maybe the places I chose to go just had an air reputability about them.

I wonder if whether or not they take insurance is a good starting point about such issues?