Tension in the Mariners front office

Sports Hernia · Dec 8, 2013

If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......

chris98251 · Dec 8, 2013

Pat Gillick and Lou got us those wins, Lou and Pat had historic clashes with Armstrong and Lincoln but winning kept a lot under wraps, Pat and Lou both left becasue of Lincoln and Armstrong.

Uncle Si · Dec 8, 2013

Sports Hernia":1ihjmld0 said:
If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......

He and Armstrong have pretty much run the show since 1993... I think he became ultimate leader in 2003?

Uncle Si · Dec 8, 2013

chris98251":1xe2kzay said:
Pat Gillick and Lou got us those wins, Lou and Pat had historic clashes with Armstrong and Lincoln but winning kept a lot under wraps, Pat and Lou both left becasue of Lincoln and Armstrong.

Its not about who got the wins. Trust me I'm not trying to give them any credit. (Those clashes being Lou never feeling he had enough hitting to win)

I'm saying their experiences in management are deep in the big hitter-ace pitcher mentality because of those successes

Thus a Cano-Ibanez-Morales/King-Iwa-Price team is their perfect scenario

Trenchbroom · Dec 8, 2013

Uncle Si":21mamzgf said:
Sports Hernia":21mamzgf said:

If I'm not mistaken Howard Lincoln wasn't in the position of power that he current holds, until 2001ish......

Click to expand...

He and Armstrong have pretty much run the show since 1993... I think he became ultimate leader in 2003?

Yes. He retired from running Nintendo of America around the release of the Gamecube in the US. I always admired him as the CEO of NOA--took his directives from Japan well but still saw how unique the US market was and made the right moves in the video game business.

Just goes to show that being a good leader in one field doesn't mean you can do the same in another.

Infamous425 · Dec 8, 2013

shouldnt be a surprise at all. fans have been calling for howie and chucky to step down for years now

Scottemojo · Dec 9, 2013

This is an awesome expose.
Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.

Happypuppy · Dec 9, 2013

Scottemojo":36stuwc2 said:
This is an awesome expose.
Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.

Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.

Uncle Si · Dec 9, 2013

Happypuppy":3evl9jwu said:
Scottemojo":3evl9jwu said:

This is an awesome expose.
Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.

Click to expand...

Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.

A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.

Happypuppy · Dec 9, 2013

Uncle Si":7sulp3pe said:
A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.

How about this. If it does not show incompetence I do not not what does.

"By mid-day Friday, Seattle had heard that some team bid nine years and $225 million for Robinson Cano, so the Mariners upped their bid to $240 million and 10 years before apparently realizing the initial bid had come from themselves, too."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas- ... urking.ece

Uncle Si · Dec 9, 2013

Happypuppy":15wr3zos said:
Uncle Si":15wr3zos said:

A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.

Click to expand...

How about this. If it does not show incompetence I do not not what does.

"By mid-day Friday, Seattle had heard that some team bid nine years and $225 million for Robinson Cano, so the Mariners upped their bid to $240 million and 10 years before apparently realizing the initial bid had come from themselves, too."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/texas- ... urking.ece

there's no question of the incompetence. there is two decades of frustration thats easily trackable. why is every attempt to find some sort of rationality in all this somehow defending these two... its just not.

we've married ourselves to Cano. Like it or not. I've been hoping for a change at the top since Lou was tossing bases in the Kingdome. But we are here, as an organization.

given that, do we really want to wholesale change right before the winter meetings? this is not a rhetorical question... i'm really asking.

Scottemojo · Dec 9, 2013

Uncle Si":2fp9m1un said:
Happypuppy":2fp9m1un said:

Scottemojo":2fp9m1un said:

This is an awesome expose.
Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.

Click to expand...

Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.

Click to expand...

A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.

I thought they needed 2 RH bats more than anything. Cano does nothing to change that.

Personally, I think it is a mistake to assume advanced metrics is exclusive to low payroll. Boston, anyone?
But far beyond those philisophical directions, if it's true that Seattle has a culture of no dissension from the lower ranks combined with a couple of guys who micromanage the manager, there will NEVER be success in Seattle.

The Cano signing isn't the mistake, it's just a single piece of evidence that these guys are idiots. If they actually did outbid themselves, it takes on a whole new layer of ineptitude, because that would be a mistake made exclusively out of fear.

Uncle Si · Dec 9, 2013

Scottemojo":1vthm56d said:
Uncle Si":1vthm56d said:

Happypuppy":1vthm56d said:

Scottemojo":1vthm56d said:

This is an awesome expose.
Jack's moves have reeked of old baseball thinking combined with desperation. The M's have rushed players to the bigs, then punished those same players for not producing. The ignoring of advanced metrics while in the same division as the A's is such a contrast in thinking.

Click to expand...

Excellent post. It is the best piece of Sports investigative journalism in a long time in our area. Remember" in Jack we trust" ?

I would not sign anyone else until first we get the best GM we can so we don't get saddled with a bunch of bad deals.

Click to expand...

A contrast that the Rangers and Angels have used to get to World Series...(just saying advanced metrics has its place in different organizations, and very rarely is it used to win championships)

I'm all for change, and running an organization like the A's (or Rays, or even the Cardinals). But we just committed to 240$ (million) in one player. As much as we want change in Jack Z, he is doing the bidding of Lincoln, who is going nowhere. Do we really want that change now?

The team needs atleast 2 more additions to compliment Cano.

Click to expand...

I thought they needed 2 RH bats more than anything. Cano does nothing to change that.

Personally, I think it is a mistake to assume advanced metrics is exclusive to low payroll. Boston, anyone?
But far beyond those philisophical directions, if it's true that Seattle has a culture of no dissension from the lower ranks combined with a couple of guys who micromanage the manager, there will NEVER be success in Seattle.

The Cano signing isn't the mistake, it's just a single piece of evidence that these guys are idiots. If they actually did outbid themselves, it takes on a whole new layer of ineptitude, because that would be a mistake made exclusively out of fear.

I get why outbidding yourself is a mistake... but why is signing the top free agent in the MLB sign they are idiots?

Again, i'm just trying to round this conversation out. Cano is a Mariner. whats next?

DavidSeven · Dec 9, 2013

We are the Washington Redskins of the MLB with even less success. Just a straight up incompetent organization. I want to like the Ms, but I can't look at them with anything but slight disdain after their very public opposition to the Seattle basketball arena. I can't truly like this team until the current leadership is completely eradicated.

I read the article, and there's nothing about it that surprised me.

Scottemojo · Dec 9, 2013

It doesn't mean they are idiots. To my eye, it means they are desperate. If they accidentally outbid themselves, then they are idiots.

But mostly, it just appears that intellectual dishonest, and in the case of the guy accused of rape, actual dishonesty, is part of the way they do business. So thinking that the Cano move may be undone by some other crappy move is both kneejerk, but still likely accurate.

Uncle Si · Dec 9, 2013

Scottemojo":3cvqvl7e said:
It doesn't mean they are idiots. To my eye, it means they are desperate. If they accidentally outbid themselves, then they are idiots.

But mostly, it just appears that intellectual dishonest, and in the case of the guy accused of rape, actual dishonesty, is part of the way they do business. So thinking that the Cano move may be undone by some other crappy move is both kneejerk, but still likely accurate.

No argument from me... And the desperation started with their attempts to sign Fielder

I guess I'm just all in on this because.... Well really what choice is there. It either blows up in our face and the end of Jack Z and Lincoln follow...or it works and we start winning games.

But like a long boring poker game, at least now its all in

ClumsyLurk · Dec 9, 2013

This piece should have been written a few years earlier. I rememeber when Baker and USSM were going back and forth and it seemed Baker was more interested in maintaining access to the program over hard hitting journalism. I am pleased that he published this at all though.

Happypuppy · Dec 9, 2013

Cano is a piece but I am not that keen on the Price rumors if true. The cost I am hearing us steep. We lost some good players last time for an arm.

We can move Franklin and we have a log jam at first with Smoak and Montero. Maybe package both for a out fielder.

I hate to give up in Ackerly but he is not an outfielder. He is a pretty decent infielder. We could keep franklin and move him if a good deal was to be had.

haroldseattle · Dec 9, 2013

The Cano move is to little to late. Mariners should have signed Fielder a couple of years ago, instead of trading for Montero. The Cano deal had to be done for PR reasons, need to get those butts in the seats. The whole article just shows what a mess the front office is IMO and should of been reported years ago.

Anyone know of a good Mariner forum?

haroldseattle · Dec 9, 2013

Uncle Si":4m1ws4ir said:
Smelly McUgly":4m1ws4ir said:

I believe that most of this is true. There is smoke here about, for example, the shift to acquiring players that hit dingers. Also, Chuck and Howard have long been incompetent in GM and managerial hires.

And the sheer number of screwups in the Josh Lueke mold set a pattern of inability to properly GM for Jack Z.

Click to expand...

Its not a shift...these guys ran the team when we had 3 guys of 30+ and led the lead in homers (Tino junior and bones..with Edgar close)...they were running the show when we won 116. They bought Sexson and Beltre. The last ten years have been about diminishing return. Last three years about trusting the kids (and failing to offer appropriate support)

They like big hitting and pitching. They've tried to get a big hitter in here for three years and Now they have.

Key will be what's next. I'd love to see them gone. But let's not be so forgetful of who these guys are

Seriously Ms fans...

They have been trying to get a big hitter on the cheap. Should have pony up for Fielder rather then trade for Montero. Now they are desperate and go all out on the wrong player. The Cano deal is going to bite the Mariners in the butt, without a doubt.

Tension in the Mariners front office

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

New member

New member

Active member

New member

Active member

New member

Active member

Active member

Active member

New member

Active member

Active member

New member

New member

Active member

Active member

Similar threads