Seahawks Secondary - The Best Ever?

:2: fellow 12's

Apologies if this has been posted before -

http://grantland.com/features/best-units-nfl-history/

Thoughts?! If they are not already, I think they will be very soon

Go 'Hawks

Kev

They certainly are on their way.

Yeah, I think they need to play a few more years at a high level to make "greatest ever" status, but they are off to a great start. The fact that we've signed most of the best players on the unit long term is a big plus for that working out. Some of the young guys coming up look pretty good, too. This FO obviously has an eye for talent and the team has some great coaching to develop it. Kudos to our old friend Kris Richard. Was a decent DB in his day, but is starting to look like a first rate DB coach.

I don't like these "best ever" comparisons no matter what the position. The game has changed too much to offer a fair comparison between modern day teams/players and the teams/players that played a much different brand of football 20, 30, or 70 years ago.

But I will say that our secondary is currently the best in its era, which perhaps covers the past 10 years or so.

I would like to see them go against the top passers a few more times before jumping on the bandwagon. In games that count, they have faced Rodgers once, Brees 4 times (though the current group has only played him twice), Brady once, Ryan three times (losing twice to him), Romo twice (losing once). They have played Peyton once during the regular season/playoffs. Cutler twice in the regular season/playoffs (losing once). Stafford once (lost). These are just from my fading memory banks and most likely aren't 100% accurate.

Most likely the main 3 will be split up around 2017, when Chancellor's contract is up. They will have to continue to make their mark in the playoffs because most times they are not facing elite QBs during the regular season.

I'd agree with RIverdog, but I started thinking.

Our secondary dominates in an era where it's hard for DB's to play. We all agree it's easier to play defense 10 years ago than now.

So, if you took our guys back 20 years ago, and let them jam at the line and hold more, would they be better or worse than they are now ?

I'd honestly say they'd be better. MUCH better. How much better would Kam be if he didn't have to hit in a strike zone ? If Sherman could grab a guy all the way through the route ? If Thomas had less speed to deal with on the outside in multiple positions ?

The only thing keeping them from being the absolute best is longevity, and we have the contracts in place to alleviate that soon. A couple more years of them leading the league in pass defense, and we're the consensus #1 and there won't even be many doubters left at that point.

Yes.

I grew up watching the late-70's Raiders and the 1984 Seahawks, the only two secondaries that come close. Based on the defeat of the Cowgirls in the NFCCG, you could almost argue the 1994 Whiners, but they weren't nearly as violent and they weren't quite the game-changers that you see with the other 3 examples.

Yeah, I do think the LOB is the best secondary in the history of the NFL and I don't think it's all that close. Have had this discussion a handful of times with my Raiders fan of a father, and even he agrees. That late-70's Raiders secondary was just awesome in the classical definition of the word, but even they weren't as good as the LoB.

Right now this is debatable, in 2-3 years it won't be.

HansGruber":2godth9d said:

Yes.

I grew up watching the late-70's Raiders and the 1984 Seahawks, the only two secondaries that come close. Based on the defeat of the Cowgirls in the NFCCG, you could almost argue the 1994 Whiners, but they weren't nearly as violent and they weren't quite the game-changers that you see with the other 3 examples.

Yeah, I do think the LOB is the best secondary in the history of the NFL and I don't think it's all that close. Have had this discussion a handful of times with my Raiders fan of a father, and even he agrees. That late-70's Raiders secondary was just awesome in the classical definition of the word, but even they weren't as good as the LoB.

Click to expand...

Hans, your avatar; random, appalling, and evokes thoughts of a declining civilization.

Great job, doctor!

HoustonHawk82":30n3wz18 said:

HansGruber":30n3wz18 said:

Yes.

I grew up watching the late-70's Raiders and the 1984 Seahawks, the only two secondaries that come close. Based on the defeat of the Cowgirls in the NFCCG, you could almost argue the 1994 Whiners, but they weren't nearly as violent and they weren't quite the game-changers that you see with the other 3 examples.

Yeah, I do think the LOB is the best secondary in the history of the NFL and I don't think it's all that close. Have had this discussion a handful of times with my Raiders fan of a father, and even he agrees. That late-70's Raiders secondary was just awesome in the classical definition of the word, but even they weren't as good as the LoB.

Click to expand...

Hans, your avatar; random, appalling, and evokes thoughts of a declining civilization.

Great job, doctor!

Click to expand...

Thank you! I was thinking of CinnamonGirl when I put that up. And Peyton Manning. With a wig.

drdiags":2kslyn59 said:

I would like to see them go against the top passers a few more times before jumping on the bandwagon. In games that count, they have faced Rodgers once, Brees 4 times (though the current group has only played him twice), Brady once, Ryan three times (losing twice to him), Romo twice (losing once). They have played Peyton once during the regular season/playoffs. Cutler twice in the regular season/playoffs (losing once). Stafford once (lost). These are just from my fading memory banks and most likely aren't 100% accurate.

Click to expand...

To be fair, most of those losses happened during the Gus Bradley era. Gus Bradley loved him a soft zone, especially on 3rd and long.

Under Dan Quinn, they've only had one bad game, at Indy. And even in that game there was only one or two inexcusable coverage breakdowns. Most of it was horrible officiating and some amazing 2nd half play from Andrew Luck.

I do think our secondary is going to have a precipitous dropoff this year in the new environment, but I think if they were allowed by the NFL to play like they did in 2013 into perpetuity they would be deserving of the greatest ever label.

kearly":k5e19w9h said:

drdiags":k5e19w9h said:

I would like to see them go against the top passers a few more times before jumping on the bandwagon. In games that count, they have faced Rodgers once, Brees 4 times (though the current group has only played him twice), Brady once, Ryan three times (losing twice to him), Romo twice (losing once). They have played Peyton once during the regular season/playoffs. Cutler twice in the regular season/playoffs (losing once). Stafford once (lost). These are just from my fading memory banks and most likely aren't 100% accurate.

Click to expand...

To be fair, most of those losses happened during the Gus Bradley era. Gus Bradley loved him a soft zone, especially on 3rd and long.

Under Dan Quinn, they've only had one bad game, at Indy. And even in that game there was only one or two inexcusable coverage breakdowns. Most of it was horrible officiating and some amazing 2nd half play from Andrew Luck.

I do think our secondary is going to have a precipitous dropoff this year in the new environment, but I think if they were allowed by the NFL to play like they did in 2013 into perpetuity they would be deserving of the greatest ever label.

Click to expand...

Indy did what every offense did every week after them - they targeted Browner over and over. Luck must have thrown 90+% of his passes at Browner in the second half.

Luck was distributing his passes all over the field in the first half and just getting beaten. Badly. Then late in the second quarter he started throwing at Browner. They were moving Hilton over to Browners side and beating him up top. Then they'd put a slot guy against him and beat him inside after Thomas started sneaking over to help Browner in that mid zone . I've rewatched the game a few times and it's clear they found the weak link and just attacked. I should go back and count the passes but at a rough guess, they had to run over 90% of their plays right at Browner. They were even running at him.

That was the game when it became clear that Browner was done. Too much of a liability in coverage and the whole NFL saw it. I actually fist pumped in my car when his suspension was announced and, sure enough, Maxwell was a MAJOR upgrade. I'm not even sure we get to the superbowl if Browners played in the NFCCG.

Cracks me up when Patriots fans were laughing about stealing Browner from us. I feel like it's our payback for Deion Branch.

Its the BEST EVER, right now... and really that's all that matters moving forward on the journey for two. LoB is part of the Seahawks identity and they are Championship proven against the greatest offense ever.

I've got to admit though how many Secondaries have been credited with changing the culture of the league and enforcing the NFL to be pansies about it and sending everybody into an uproar about "emphasis"... that part is already infamous and as Seahawks fan, I LOVE IT.

HansGruber":3s29lqbd said:

kearly":3s29lqbd said:

drdiags":3s29lqbd said:

I would like to see them go against the top passers a few more times before jumping on the bandwagon. In games that count, they have faced Rodgers once, Brees 4 times (though the current group has only played him twice), Brady once, Ryan three times (losing twice to him), Romo twice (losing once). They have played Peyton once during the regular season/playoffs. Cutler twice in the regular season/playoffs (losing once). Stafford once (lost). These are just from my fading memory banks and most likely aren't 100% accurate.

Click to expand...

To be fair, most of those losses happened during the Gus Bradley era. Gus Bradley loved him a soft zone, especially on 3rd and long.

Under Dan Quinn, they've only had one bad game, at Indy. And even in that game there was only one or two inexcusable coverage breakdowns. Most of it was horrible officiating and some amazing 2nd half play from Andrew Luck.

I do think our secondary is going to have a precipitous dropoff this year in the new environment, but I think if they were allowed by the NFL to play like they did in 2013 into perpetuity they would be deserving of the greatest ever label.

Click to expand...

Indy did what every offense did every week after them - they targeted Browner over and over. Luck must have thrown 90+% of his passes at Browner in the second half.

Luck was distributing his passes all over the field in the first half and just getting beaten. Badly. Then late in the second quarter he started throwing at Browner. They were moving Hilton over to Browners side and beating him up top. Then they'd put a slot guy against him and beat him inside after Thomas started sneaking over to help Browner in that mid zone . I've rewatched the game a few times and it's clear they found the weak link and just attacked. I should go back and count the passes but at a rough guess, they had to run over 90% of their plays right at Browner. They were even running at him.

That was the game when it became clear that Browner was done. Too much of a liability in coverage and the whole NFL saw it. I actually fist pumped in my car when his suspension was announced and, sure enough, Maxwell was a MAJOR upgrade. I'm not even sure we get to the superbowl if Browners played in the NFCCG.

Cracks me up when Patriots fans were laughing about stealing Browner from us. I feel like it's our payback for Deion Branch.

Click to expand...

Really, though Luck was great in that game but Hilton was flopping like a fish, Wayne was pushing off his defender every time, and the refs were calling everything on the Seahawks DBs while letting our own WRs get abused in much more fragrant ways.

But its cool Luck is the league's wonderbody, so it would make sense for the league to protect him and allow certain assurances to make his team competitive. Least penalized team in the NFL, and if you watch any Colts game you know half the flags thrown for the Colts and against the other team are bogus.

Pandion Haliaetus":2b37h932 said:

HansGruber":2b37h932 said:

kearly":2b37h932 said:

drdiags":2b37h932 said:

I would like to see them go against the top passers a few more times before jumping on the bandwagon. In games that count, they have faced Rodgers once, Brees 4 times (though the current group has only played him twice), Brady once, Ryan three times (losing twice to him), Romo twice (losing once). They have played Peyton once during the regular season/playoffs. Cutler twice in the regular season/playoffs (losing once). Stafford once (lost). These are just from my fading memory banks and most likely aren't 100% accurate.

Click to expand...

To be fair, most of those losses happened during the Gus Bradley era. Gus Bradley loved him a soft zone, especially on 3rd and long.

Under Dan Quinn, they've only had one bad game, at Indy. And even in that game there was only one or two inexcusable coverage breakdowns. Most of it was horrible officiating and some amazing 2nd half play from Andrew Luck.

I do think our secondary is going to have a precipitous dropoff this year in the new environment, but I think if they were allowed by the NFL to play like they did in 2013 into perpetuity they would be deserving of the greatest ever label.

Click to expand...

Indy did what every offense did every week after them - they targeted Browner over and over. Luck must have thrown 90+% of his passes at Browner in the second half.

Luck was distributing his passes all over the field in the first half and just getting beaten. Badly. Then late in the second quarter he started throwing at Browner. They were moving Hilton over to Browners side and beating him up top. Then they'd put a slot guy against him and beat him inside after Thomas started sneaking over to help Browner in that mid zone . I've rewatched the game a few times and it's clear they found the weak link and just attacked. I should go back and count the passes but at a rough guess, they had to run over 90% of their plays right at Browner. They were even running at him.

That was the game when it became clear that Browner was done. Too much of a liability in coverage and the whole NFL saw it. I actually fist pumped in my car when his suspension was announced and, sure enough, Maxwell was a MAJOR upgrade. I'm not even sure we get to the superbowl if Browners played in the NFCCG.

Cracks me up when Patriots fans were laughing about stealing Browner from us. I feel like it's our payback for Deion Branch.

Click to expand...

Really, though Luck was great in that game but Hilton was flopping like a fish, Wayne was pushing off his defender every time, and the refs were calling everything on the Seahawks DBs while letting our own WRs get abused in much more fragrant ways.

But its cool Luck is the league's wonderbody, so it would make sense for the league to protect him and allow certain assurances to make his team competitive. Least penalized team in the NFL, and if you watch any Colts game you know half the flags thrown for the Colts and against the other team are bogus.

Click to expand...

All of that aside, go back and watch the game. Indy threw it at Brandon Browner nearly every down in the second half. It was ludicrous. And he was getting burned over and over and over. Painful to watch. And the rest of the teams we played that year started doing the same thing. Earl Thomas was basically playing CB while Browner would mug guys at the LOS.

No, I agree Browner was bad in that game, his season in whole was sub-par. But I was just adding though the refs didn't allow the Seahawks D to get into their element and Indys WR were coaxing bogus penalties and that affected the way we played and gave Indy the opportunities to come back.

Hawks46":38ztk3z3 said:

I'd agree with RIverdog, but I started thinking.

Our secondary dominates in an era where it's hard for DB's to play. We all agree it's easier to play defense 10 years ago than now.

So, if you took our guys back 20 years ago, and let them jam at the line and hold more, would they be better or worse than they are now ?

I'd honestly say they'd be better. MUCH better. How much better would Kam be if he didn't have to hit in a strike zone ? If Sherman could grab a guy all the way through the route ? If Thomas had less speed to deal with on the outside in multiple positions ?

The only thing keeping them from being the absolute best is longevity, and we have the contracts in place to alleviate that soon. A couple more years of them leading the league in pass defense, and we're the consensus #1 and there won't even be many doubters left at that point.

Click to expand...

Yes, there were fewer rules restraining DB's. George Atkinson and Jack Tatum played in an era where they could play bump-and-run and there were very few rules protecting receivers. But teams played a lot less zone, there wasn't the platooning with nickel and dime backs to take the pressure off the 4 starting secondary players, and teams didn't have the sophisticated zones they play nowadays. Offenses ran the ball more, placing more of a premium on DB's that were good at stopping the run. Linebackers primary responsibility was stopping the run, and you had guys like Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Bobby Bell, and Willie Lanier who played because they were great run stoppers. Supporting pass defense was an after thought.

Plus you also have to consider other differences, like training, coaching, the ability to concentrate on football year round (George Blanda drove a beer truck in the offseason to make ends meet). If you blew out your knee in the 60's, like Gayle Sayers did, your career was finished. Not so nowadays, as Adrian Peterson proved.

Think of it this way: Which fighter plane was the best ever, the P51 Mustang or the F18 Hornet? It's not really fair to compare the Mustang with the Hornet, but rather one should consider how they fared against their contemporaries.

Like I said, the game has changed too much to compare players from different eras.