What Happened to our Offensive Line?

[Willyeye]

I think maybe you needed to expand the reasons for our lackluster O-Line beyond just trading away a couple of first round picks. Getting a couple of late first round picks back (essentially second round picks), doesn't mean they would have used them on O-Line. Regarding Unger, he only played in 6 games in 2014, and we still barely missed a SB win. Getting back to the draft picks...I don't care about the first round picks, but I do care about the lack of O-Line investment in the drafts from 2012-2014.

If you look at those three drafts, it does not look like they would have used any 1st round picks on O-Line anyway, even if they were basically 2nd round picks. In 2012, they drafted Sweezy, a DT, in the 7th round. Virtually no investment in the O-Line other than a project...and yes, Sweezy was a starter and all, but he was never even average. In 2013, they drafted Bowie and Seymour, both 7th rounders, and Jared Smith, another DL conversion. None of them were ever average either. Then in 2014, they finally draft a lineman in the 2nd round, and even me, a guy that is not even remotely an expert in football, yelled at my TV, "omg, you morons just wasted a 2nd round pick on a below average lineman that you could have picked in the 5th or 6th round!". And then to add insult to injury, they proceeded to use their obligatory late round pick (6th) to get a guy that happened to have a heart defect (I'm not complaining about this pick because no one really knows what might have been...obviously just bad luck).

But my point is that, the reasons for the mediocre/subpar O-Line is not so much that they traded away Unger and a couple of 1st round picks...it's because they virtually made no real draft investment in that O-Line for 3 years, from 2012-2014. In 3 years time, they used 2- 7th round picks for DL conversions, 2-more 7th round picks, and a 5th round pick they used in the 2nd round, and a 6th rounder. I think complaining about these 6 picks is much more valid than worrying about a couple of 1st round picks. Not like they were wasted picks...more so that they should have used some more Day Two picks instead, and more than 6 in 3 years if 2 of them are conversions. Plus, in 2013 and 2014, it's not like they used all their higher picks and picked a bunch of superstars. They could have shown a little more love for the O-Line.

And to be fair, they have used 6 picks in the last 2 drafts: 1- 1st, 1- 3rd, 2- 4th's, and 2- 6th's. Had they done something similar in the drafts in 2013 & 2014, we most likely would not be having this conversation.

Also, you have to understand that this IS part of the JS/PC strategy: save cap space on the O-Line and use it on defense. Like others said...Dallas used a bunch of 1st rounders on O-Line (honestly, they had to in order to protect the China doll Romo), but their defense hasn't been consistent so they failed anyway...plus, Romo was still injured anyway. Regardless, the Hawks strategy has worked so well that this defense has led the NFL in scoring for 4 consecutive years...no defense has ever done that in NFL history.

And most importantly, even with all of the O-Line issues, from 2012-2015, the Hawks have been #1, #4, #1 and #3 in rushing. Some of this has to be credited to Cable and the O-Line. And you have to admit that Wilson has brought some of these O-Line issues on himself...there is probably no QB in the NFL that has been more difficult to block for than Russell Wilson over the last 4 seasons. How many QB's can extend plays for 10 or 15 seconds? Hopefully a quicker release strategy will help the new O-Line to succeed.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

For all John's insistence that he didn't skimp on the OL by design, it hasn't really hurt us. "What could have been" - you mean other than a 53-21 W/L record for Russ, one of the league's best offenses and running games, four consecutive playoff appearances, two NFC championships, and a Super Bowl?

Good quarterbacks have been proving for over a decade now that they can make an offensive line less important. Peyton Manning proved it, and he has nowhere the mobility of Russ. Pete also acknowledged that the style of football they were playing was magnifying the pressure on Russ, and once they changed it up midseason last year, things got a LOT better without any changes in personnel. In fact, we lost Rawls and still fought through.

I'm happy to improve on any position, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a little out-of-perspective to worry about a position Wilson has proven he doesn't need to be spectacular, in order for HIM to succeed.

I'm sorry but all this talk about we don't need a good offensive line because we have a mobile QB is just ridiculous. Maybe it doesn't need to be "spectacular" as you say but we won 10 games last year and except for a blown call and a couple of fortunate circumstances it could have easily been an 8 - win season. Why do you think we can't beat the Rams? That hasn't been lost on Arizona either who went out and got a top pass rusher like the Rams have. Keep playing that idea that the O-line isn't important and we will be right back where we were before this run.

Whoa, chill out there, short-fuse. I didn't say it wasn't important, I just don't think it's ALL-important. "As they go, so our season goes" - have you noticed that Wilson has played ALL FOUR of his NFL seasons behind a line that was mediocre at absolute best? How do you explain that? That's a 13-3 season in the mix as well.

I'm not saying the OL isn't important. I'm saying it's the easiest unit to cover for using other elements of the offense.

 

[xgeoff]

It's hard to find good starting OL in the draft without owning a top 15 pick...The best OL available at Seattle's #31 pick in 2015 was Donovan Smith. It's hard to say that those additions would be all that much of a difference to what we have now.

For the most part you are right, but 2015 was a bonanza for Offensive Linemen, just like 2014 was with WR's. Here are a list of starting OL that would have been available to us at that postion or later:

Donovan Smith
Mitch Morse
Rob Havenstein
Ali Marpet
Ty Sambraillo
Hroniss Grasu
Max Garcia
AJ Cann

 

[dogorama]

For all John's insistence that he didn't skimp on the OL by design, it hasn't really hurt us. "What could have been" - you mean other than a 53-21 W/L record for Russ, one of the league's best offenses and running games, four consecutive playoff appearances, two NFC championships, and a Super Bowl?

Good quarterbacks have been proving for over a decade now that they can make an offensive line less important. Peyton Manning proved it, and he has nowhere the mobility of Russ. Pete also acknowledged that the style of football they were playing was magnifying the pressure on Russ, and once they changed it up midseason last year, things got a LOT better without any changes in personnel. In fact, we lost Rawls and still fought through.

I'm happy to improve on any position, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a little out-of-perspective to worry about a position Wilson has proven he doesn't need to be spectacular, in order for HIM to succeed.

I'm sorry but all this talk about we don't need a good offensive line because we have a mobile QB is just ridiculous. Maybe it doesn't need to be "spectacular" as you say but we won 10 games last year and except for a blown call and a couple of fortunate circumstances it could have easily been an 8 - win season. Why do you think we can't beat the Rams? That hasn't been lost on Arizona either who went out and got a top pass rusher like the Rams have. Keep playing that idea that the O-line isn't important and we will be right back where we were before this run.

Whoa, chill out there, short-fuse. I didn't say it wasn't important, I just don't think it's ALL-important. "As they go, so our season goes" - have you noticed that Wilson has played ALL FOUR of his NFL seasons behind a line that was mediocre at absolute best? How do you explain that? That's a 13-3 season in the mix as well.

I'm not saying the OL isn't important. I'm saying it's the easiest unit to cover for using other elements of the offense.

Sorry, didn't mean anything personal, just frustrated that w/this group-think that an effective O-line isn't essential or that it is part of some sort of Seahawk "formula." Schneider has said himself that the O-line situation wasn't planned and the simple fact is they let it get away from them. Yes, the FO has done a lot of great things, but in this one area they have failed and pretty miserably failed. This year they are trying to correct that but it remains to be seen if they can pull it off. It will be a real tragedy if the O-line holds back a really deep squad everywhere else.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

For all John's insistence that he didn't skimp on the OL by design, it hasn't really hurt us. "What could have been" - you mean other than a 53-21 W/L record for Russ, one of the league's best offenses and running games, four consecutive playoff appearances, two NFC championships, and a Super Bowl?

Good quarterbacks have been proving for over a decade now that they can make an offensive line less important. Peyton Manning proved it, and he has nowhere the mobility of Russ. Pete also acknowledged that the style of football they were playing was magnifying the pressure on Russ, and once they changed it up midseason last year, things got a LOT better without any changes in personnel. In fact, we lost Rawls and still fought through.

I'm happy to improve on any position, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a little out-of-perspective to worry about a position Wilson has proven he doesn't need to be spectacular, in order for HIM to succeed.

I'm sorry but all this talk about we don't need a good offensive line because we have a mobile QB is just ridiculous. Maybe it doesn't need to be "spectacular" as you say but we won 10 games last year and except for a blown call and a couple of fortunate circumstances it could have easily been an 8 - win season. Why do you think we can't beat the Rams? That hasn't been lost on Arizona either who went out and got a top pass rusher like the Rams have. Keep playing that idea that the O-line isn't important and we will be right back where we were before this run.

Whoa, chill out there, short-fuse. I didn't say it wasn't important, I just don't think it's ALL-important. "As they go, so our season goes" - have you noticed that Wilson has played ALL FOUR of his NFL seasons behind a line that was mediocre at absolute best? How do you explain that? That's a 13-3 season in the mix as well.

I'm not saying the OL isn't important. I'm saying it's the easiest unit to cover for using other elements of the offense.

Sorry, didn't mean anything personal, just frustrated that w/this group-think that an effective O-line isn't essential or that it is part of some sort of Seahawk "formula." Schneider has said himself that the O-line situation wasn't planned and the simple fact is they let it get away from them. Yes, the FO has done a lot of great things, but in this one area they have failed and pretty miserably failed. This year they are trying to correct that but it remains to be seen if they can pull it off.

I'm just saying...they've pulled it off for the last four years.

 

[dogorama]

I think maybe you needed to expand the reasons for our lackluster O-Line beyond just trading away a couple of first round picks. Getting a couple of late first round picks back (essentially second round picks), doesn't mean they would have used them on O-Line. Regarding Unger, he only played in 6 games in 2014, and we still barely missed a SB win. Getting back to the draft picks...I don't care about the first round picks, but I do care about the lack of O-Line investment in the drafts from 2012-2014.

If you look at those three drafts, it does not look like they would have used any 1st round picks on O-Line anyway, even if they were basically 2nd round picks. In 2012, they drafted Sweezy, a DT, in the 7th round. Virtually no investment in the O-Line other than a project...and yes, Sweezy was a starter and all, but he was never even average. In 2013, they drafted Bowie and Seymour, both 7th rounders, and Jared Smith, another DL conversion. None of them were ever average either. Then in 2014, they finally draft a lineman in the 2nd round, and even me, a guy that is not even remotely an expert in football, yelled at my TV, "omg, you morons just wasted a 2nd round pick on a below average lineman that you could have picked in the 5th or 6th round!". And then to add insult to injury, they proceeded to use their obligatory late round pick (6th) to get a guy that happened to have a heart defect (I'm not complaining about this pick because no one really knows what might have been...obviously just bad luck).

But my point is that, the reasons for the mediocre/subpar O-Line is not so much that they traded away Unger and a couple of 1st round picks...it's because they virtually made no real draft investment in that O-Line for 3 years, from 2012-2014. In 3 years time, they used 2- 7th round picks for DL conversions, 2-more 7th round picks, and a 5th round pick they used in the 2nd round, and a 6th rounder. I think complaining about these 6 picks is much more valid than worrying about a couple of 1st round picks. Not like they were wasted picks...more so that they should have used some more Day Two picks instead, and more than 6 in 3 years if 2 of them are conversions. Plus, in 2013 and 2014, it's not like they used all their higher picks and picked a bunch of superstars. They could have shown a little more love for the O-Line.

And to be fair, they have used 6 picks in the last 2 drafts: 1- 1st, 1- 3rd, 2- 4th's, and 2- 6th's. Had they done something similar in the drafts in 2013 & 2014, we most likely would not be having this conversation.

Also, you have to understand that this IS part of the JS/PC strategy: save cap space on the O-Line and use it on defense. Like others said...Dallas used a bunch of 1st rounders on O-Line (honestly, they had to in order to protect the China doll Romo), but their defense hasn't been consistent so they failed anyway...plus, Romo was still injured anyway. Regardless, the Hawks strategy has worked so well that this defense has led the NFL in scoring for 4 consecutive years...no defense has ever done that in NFL history.

And most importantly, even with all of the O-Line issues, from 2012-2015, the Hawks have been #1, #4, #1 and #3 in rushing. Some of this has to be credited to Cable and the O-Line. And you have to admit that Wilson has brought some of these O-Line issues on himself...there is probably no QB in the NFL that has been more difficult to block for than Russell Wilson over the last 4 seasons. How many QB's can extend plays for 10 or 15 seconds? Hopefully a quicker release strategy will help the new O-Line to succeed.

Thanks, great analysis. My initial post wasn't meant to be anything more than what it was, but your post illustrates what I was thinking and that is we simply let the O-line get away from us. Like I said in another post, Schneider has practically admitted as much when he said in the press that the O-line situation wasn't intentional. I believe you must provide balance in everything you do and in this instance the FO failed to address that.

You make great points but the rushing stats are skewed by a remarkable QB who is amazing on his feet. You could almost say that he got those rushing yds not because of his O-line, but in spite of them.

 

[dogorama]

I'm just saying...they've pulled it off for the last four years.

Actually, and again no offense but I don't think they pulled it off last year at all. People keep pointing to our rushing stats as some sort of vindication for the O-line but they can take almost no credit for RW's stats that are largely responsible for our high rushing ranking. I think it caught up w/us last year and I refer to another post of last year:

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

 

[Willyeye]

I'm just saying...they've pulled it off for the last four years.

Actually, and again no offense but I don't think they pulled it off last year at all. People keep pointing to our rushing stats as some sort of vindication for the O-line but they can take almost no credit for RW's stats that are largely responsible for our high rushing ranking. I think it caught up w/us last year and I refer to another post of last year:

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

Many good points here also. I especially liked your, "the rushing stats are skewed by a remarkable QB who is amazing on his feet. You could almost say that he got those rushing yds not because of his O-line, but in spite of them." This statement could be said about Lynch to an extent also.

I have to say though, given the fact that they drafted 6 linemen in the last 2 drafts and have now signed 3 FA's in the last few months, I feel a little better about the O-Line this season...even better than a year ago. I'm a glass-half-full guy, and I can't help but be optimistic. At this point, I'm hoping they gel by midseason, and maybe become at least an average line for the next few years...of course this also means that they need to continue drafting linemen every year.

I did want to make one more point...I think a lot of fans believe the narrative that we had a great O-Line after they benched Nowak and replaced him with Lewis. I am not a fan of this camp. Nowak was graded higher than Lewis by PFF...I know it's just PFF, but they seem to be pretty impartial when grading below-average to average players. Nowak had the much tougher half of the schedule. And Lewis did nothing spectacular against the teams with good DL's or Front 7's...the Panthers, Rams and Vikings. Lewis did get to face a bunch of mediocre defenses though. And then there's the fact that Wilson was not only on fire in the Lewis half, but he was getting rid of the ball much quicker...this could have been the case partially because of Bevell.

We'll just have to see how the line develops until the regular season. I'm trying to stay hopeful.

 

[dogorama]

I'm just saying...they've pulled it off for the last four years.

Actually, and again no offense but I don't think they pulled it off last year at all. People keep pointing to our rushing stats as some sort of vindication for the O-line but they can take almost no credit for RW's stats that are largely responsible for our high rushing ranking. I think it caught up w/us last year and I refer to another post of last year:

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

Many good points here also. I especially liked your, "the rushing stats are skewed by a remarkable QB who is amazing on his feet. You could almost say that he got those rushing yds not because of his O-line, but in spite of them." This statement could be said about Lynch to an extent also.

I have to say though, given the fact that they drafted 6 linemen in the last 2 drafts and have now signed 3 FA's in the last few months, I feel a little better about the O-Line this season...even better than a year ago. I'm a glass-half-full guy, and I can't help but be optimistic. At this point, I'm hoping they gel by midseason, and maybe become at least an average line for the next few years...of course this also means that they need to continue drafting linemen every year.

I did want to make one more point...I think a lot of fans believe the narrative that we had a great O-Line after they benched Nowak and replaced him with Lewis. I am not a fan of this camp. Nowak was graded higher than Lewis by PFF...I know it's just PFF, but they seem to be pretty impartial when grading below-average to average players. Nowak had the much tougher half of the schedule. And Lewis did nothing spectacular against the teams with good DL's or Front 7's...the Panthers, Rams and Vikings. Lewis did get to face a bunch of mediocre defenses though. And then there's the fact that Wilson was not only on fire in the Lewis half, but he was getting rid of the ball much quicker...this could have been the case partially because of Bevell.

We'll just have to see how the line develops until the regular season. I'm trying to stay hopeful.

You make some good points as well, and I am w/you on the positive moves they are making, it's just a shame that they waited until it became so critical. I am hearing great things and drafting Ifedi is a huge part of that because his never-back-down attitude and work ethic is inspiring the rest of the O-line.

Win the West in '16!!!

 

[sc85sis]

I think the difference between Nowak and Lewis was how well each could handle the calls at the line. Lewis was better at that because he's more experienced, and that helped the entire line play better as a unit.

 

[darthrep]

I'm just saying...they've pulled it off for the last four years.

Actually, and again no offense but I don't think they pulled it off last year at all. People keep pointing to our rushing stats as some sort of vindication for the O-line but they can take almost no credit for RW's stats that are largely responsible for our high rushing ranking. I think it caught up w/us last year and I refer to another post of last year:

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

Many good points here also. I especially liked your, "the rushing stats are skewed by a remarkable QB who is amazing on his feet. You could almost say that he got those rushing yds not because of his O-line, but in spite of them." This statement could be said about Lynch to an extent also.

I have to say though, given the fact that they drafted 6 linemen in the last 2 drafts and have now signed 3 FA's in the last few months, I feel a little better about the O-Line this season...even better than a year ago. I'm a glass-half-full guy, and I can't help but be optimistic. At this point, I'm hoping they gel by midseason, and maybe become at least an average line for the next few years...of course this also means that they need to continue drafting linemen every year.

I did want to make one more point...I think a lot of fans believe the narrative that we had a great O-Line after they benched Nowak and replaced him with Lewis. I am not a fan of this camp. Nowak was graded higher than Lewis by PFF...I know it's just PFF, but they seem to be pretty impartial when grading below-average to average players. Nowak had the much tougher half of the schedule. And Lewis did nothing spectacular against the teams with good DL's or Front 7's...the Panthers, Rams and Vikings. Lewis did get to face a bunch of mediocre defenses though. And then there's the fact that Wilson was not only on fire in the Lewis half, but he was getting rid of the ball much quicker...this could have been the case partially because of Bevell.

We'll just have to see how the line develops until the regular season. I'm trying to stay hopeful.

You make some good points as well, and I am w/you on the positive moves they are making, it's just a shame that they waited until it became so critical. I am hearing great things and drafting Ifedi is a huge part of that because his never-back-down attitude and work ethic is inspiring the rest of the O-line.

Win the West in '16!!!

dogo .... you only have so much money to spend ... and as others have said, it's very difficult to build strength and depth at every position as a result.

..... which position group do you take money from to bolster up the O-line?..... would you take $$$ from the D-line ...... i say no way

P & J have found that the O-line is the easiest position for them to short and still succeed ...... i will not argue with their record

how have you been? ..... haven't run across you since unleashed about a decade ago

 

[dogorama]

P & J have found that the O-line is the easiest position for them to short and still succeed ...... i will not argue with their record

how have you been? ..... haven't run across you since unleashed about a decade ago

darthrepublican! How cool is it to see you here! long time dude, I am so happy to see that you are still around. Husky's are going to kick a$$ this year!

 

[darthrep]

.... can't wait for udub ..... football is going to be exciting this year