What Happened to our Offensive Line?

[chris98251]

There is another edge to the knife your cutting with, we have traded down most of our drafts save for Okung and Thomas, trading down brings more picks, less cost per player which has created a depth at more positions, being able to evaluate talent that can be coached up has been a key to our organization. We chose O line as the most replaceable aspect of the team, being a run first team means coaching simplicity, we coach zone blocking and don't seem to worry much about pass protection, we use the shot gun a lot also. Holmgren was pretty much the opposite wanting really good lineman and drafting high, our defense suffered due to this and we were able to be bullied by defenses and aggressive offenses. I would say Holmgren built teams that thrived in the Regular season, Pete built teams that thrive in post season. Both teams were good but the old adage that defense wins championships still holds true along with ball control which is our running game.

I can't disagree w/much of what you say except to say that you are referencing the things that have worked, at least up to this point, but ignoring the first-round trades which did not.

My point about the imaginary line we could have had is probably fantasy, but I think you have to find a point in between those extremes where you don't completely abandon the O-line and, to a certain extent, that is what they have done.

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is somewhere along the line we got un-balanced and it has come back to haunt us. When we won in '13 we were regarded as a very balanced team. Now, as kearly referenced, Arizona has built a very balanced team and a large part of that is they have built a better O-line to go along w/their other parts. They have caught up w/us.

Pete and John will take a chance on guys they feel will tilt the field as they used to say, that's where Harvin and Graham came into play, proven difference makers, Harvin was a head case, Graham got injured, the book isn't closed on him as of yet. The picks were used to tilt the field, just have not panned out yet.

 

[sdog1981]

Looking back at who “His guys” are telling me what I need to know about his talent evaluations.



2011 Draft: First two picks of the draft were his to toughen up the team.

James Carpenter: All the first round tackles in this draft underwhelmed. So I can't hold this one against him. The later round tackles so far have out produced the first round tackles in this draft. Also, Carpenter turned out to be a bit of a head case. Suspended for the Sugar Bowl at Alabama then always showed up to camp fat and out of shape. Needed a change of position and team to get the “wake up call”

John Moffitt: Also a head case but all the other guards drafted after him did not do much either.


2012: Did not draft a lineman until the 7th round.

J.R. Sweezy a success story. The next guard drafted was Kelvin Beachum for the Steelers. About the same amount of success.


2013: Same as the last draft two 7th rounders.

Michael Bowie: A good tackle but got squeezed off a loaded roster. They tried to sneak him through injury waivers but the Browns picked him up. Has only played 9 games since 2014.


2014: First pick of the draft in the second round.

Justin Britt: Turned out to be not very good at any position. The next tackle taken just two picks later was Morgan Moses a very good RT for the Redskins. So much so he pushed a top 5 tackle to guard in Brandon Scherff.

Garrett Scott: Did not pass his physical due to enlarged heart. Can’t fault Cable for that.


2015:

Terry Poole/Mark Glowinski: Jury is still out on these guys. I just know with the disaster that was the line play last year only Glowinski got to play and that was week 17.

2016: 3 of the first 6 picks are Cables guys. This has to be Cables last stand here as the line coach for the Seahawks. If he can't get this much draft capital to work he has to go. Some of the best lines in football are built with low round draft picks and UDFA.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

There is another edge to the knife your cutting with, we have traded down most of our drafts save for Okung and Thomas, trading down brings more picks, less cost per player which has created a depth at more positions, being able to evaluate talent that can be coached up has been a key to our organization. We chose O line as the most replaceable aspect of the team, being a run first team means coaching simplicity, we coach zone blocking and don't seem to worry much about pass protection, we use the shot gun a lot also. Holmgren was pretty much the opposite wanting really good lineman and drafting high, our defense suffered due to this and we were able to be bullied by defenses and aggressive offenses. I would say Holmgren built teams that thrived in the Regular season, Pete built teams that thrive in post season. Both teams were good but the old adage that defense wins championships still holds true along with ball control which is our running game.

I can't disagree w/much of what you say except to say that you are referencing the things that have worked, at least up to this point, but ignoring the first-round trades which did not.

My point about the imaginary line we could have had is probably fantasy, but I think you have to find a point in between those extremes where you don't completely abandon the O-line and, to a certain extent, that is what they have done.

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is somewhere along the line we got un-balanced and it has come back to haunt us. When we won in '13 we were regarded as a very balanced team. Now, as kearly referenced, Arizona has built a very balanced team and a large part of that is they have built a better O-line to go along w/their other parts. They have caught up w/us.

I wouldn't count on Carson Palmer to have a career year twice in a row let alone be healthy two years in a row.

 

[dogorama]

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is somewhere along the line we got un-balanced and it has come back to haunt us. When we won in '13 we were regarded as a very balanced team. Now, as kearly referenced, Arizona has built a very balanced team and a large part of that is they have built a better O-line to go along w/their other parts. They have caught up w/us.

I wouldn't count on Carson Palmer to have a career year twice in a row let alone be healthy two years in a row.

Ha! They have their Achilles's heal as well.

 

[Hawks46]

There is another edge to the knife your cutting with, we have traded down most of our drafts save for Okung and Thomas, trading down brings more picks, less cost per player which has created a depth at more positions, being able to evaluate talent that can be coached up has been a key to our organization. We chose O line as the most replaceable aspect of the team, being a run first team means coaching simplicity, we coach zone blocking and don't seem to worry much about pass protection, we use the shot gun a lot also. Holmgren was pretty much the opposite wanting really good lineman and drafting high, our defense suffered due to this and we were able to be bullied by defenses and aggressive offenses. I would say Holmgren built teams that thrived in the Regular season, Pete built teams that thrive in post season. Both teams were good but the old adage that defense wins championships still holds true along with ball control which is our running game.

I can't disagree w/much of what you say except to say that you are referencing the things that have worked, at least up to this point, but ignoring the first-round trades which did not.

My point about the imaginary line we could have had is probably fantasy, but I think you have to find a point in between those extremes where you don't completely abandon the O-line and, to a certain extent, that is what they have done.

Edit: I guess what I am trying to say is somewhere along the line we got un-balanced and it has come back to haunt us. When we won in '13 we were regarded as a very balanced team. Now, as kearly referenced, Arizona has built a very balanced team and a large part of that is they have built a better O-line to go along w/their other parts. They have caught up w/us.

If you need comparative analysis look at the Dallas Cowboys. They've spent a lot of draft capital on their OL, and they've hit on quite a few of them. Their OL is regarded as the best in the league and it's not really even a debate. Now look at the rest of their team: they have a historically bad defense, meh skill position players (outside of Bryant, how good are they honestly) and the one good year they had they had to rely on their offense playing with the #1 run game in the league. Sound familiar ? When everything went right they did well, with a few injuries and having to rely on the defense to be only average they are a pretty poor team.

Conversely, we do rely on our run offense, yet if things aren't going well, our defense always keeps us in games. We never get blown out and are in every game and in contention every year. The Cowboys spend the most on their OL. We spend the least. Which strategy seems to be working ?

 

[Year of The Hawk]

You mean if JS & Pete never made a mistake in the draft or free agency look what we could accomplish..... I am happy with what they have done. Yes EVERYONE drafts a few busts and misses on some free agents but we have two of the top guys in the league (JS and Pete). Also people always throw names out like he would be awesome. What I like about John and Pete is they are about crating a team. Some guys maybe are not worth considering even though they may play well if they will not fit. Even if they take them and they don't fit they are not afraid to get rid of them. Everything is not so black and white.

 

[dogorama]

If you need comparative analysis look at the Dallas Cowboys. They've spent a lot of draft capital on their OL, and they've hit on quite a few of them. Their OL is regarded as the best in the league and it's not really even a debate. Now look at the rest of their team: they have a historically bad defense, meh skill position players (outside of Bryant, how good are they honestly) and the one good year they had they had to rely on their offense playing with the #1 run game in the league. Sound familiar ? When everything went right they did well, with a few injuries and having to rely on the defense to be only average they are a pretty poor team.

Conversely, we do rely on our run offense, yet if things aren't going well, our defense always keeps us in games. We never get blown out and are in every game and in contention every year. The Cowboys spend the most on their OL. We spend the least. Which strategy seems to be working ?

Well, it worked fine until we, like someone else said, had to go shopping for an O-line down at the dollar store. Then, we took Britt aside and said, "look, you suck at tackle AND guard so we're gonna make you center, how do you like that?" It's like taking a completely incompetent congressman and making him a senator, then, when he's even worse at that saying, "probably not a good fit for you, maybe should try being president for a while huh?" Just kidding, I hope Britt makes me look like an idiot for making that analogy.

Having said all that gibberish, give me Dallas's O-line and the Seahawks are -

19 and Oh!!!

 

[dogorama]

You mean if JS & Pete never made a mistake in the draft or free agency look what we could accomplish..... I am happy with what they have done. Yes EVERYONE drafts a few busts and misses on some free agents but we have two of the top guys in the league (JS and Pete). Also people always throw names out like he would be awesome. What I like about John and Pete is they are about crating a team. Some guys maybe are not worth considering even though they may play well if they will not fit. Even if they take them and they don't fit they are not afraid to get rid of them. Everything is not so black and white.

Lighten up, I said it was pure conjecture and it's a fan message board in off-season, we are jonesing for a real game. So, in the meantime we are given towards wild speculation, arm-chair coaching, and especially grandiosity. If it is just "well, you think you know more than the coaches?" There really wouldn't be anything to talk about then, would there?

 

[Largent80]

We have an offensive line?......We have a line that is offensive.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

You mean if JS & Pete never made a mistake in the draft or free agency look what we could accomplish..... I am happy with what they have done. Yes EVERYONE drafts a few busts and misses on some free agents but we have two of the top guys in the league (JS and Pete). Also people always throw names out like he would be awesome. What I like about John and Pete is they are about crating a team. Some guys maybe are not worth considering even though they may play well if they will not fit. Even if they take them and they don't fit they are not afraid to get rid of them. Everything is not so black and white.

Lighten up, I said it was pure conjecture and it's a fan message board in off-season, we are jonesing for a real game. So, in the meantime we are given towards wild speculation, arm-chair coaching, and especially grandiosity. If it is just "well, you think you know more than the coaches?" There really wouldn't be anything to talk about then, would there?

You have a point. Though you do worry too much.

 

[dogorama]

You have a point. Though you do worry too much.

I AM the boy who cried wolf! LOL

 

[MontanaHawk05]

For all John's insistence that he didn't skimp on the OL by design, it hasn't really hurt us. "What could have been" - you mean other than a 53-21 W/L record for Russ, one of the league's best offenses and running games, four consecutive playoff appearances, two NFC championships, and a Super Bowl?

Good quarterbacks have been proving for over a decade now that they can make an offensive line less important. Peyton Manning proved it, and he has nowhere the mobility of Russ. Pete also acknowledged that the style of football they were playing was magnifying the pressure on Russ, and once they changed it up midseason last year, things got a LOT better without any changes in personnel. In fact, we lost Rawls and still fought through.

I'm happy to improve on any position, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a little out-of-perspective to worry about a position Wilson has proven he doesn't need to be spectacular, in order for HIM to succeed.

 

[dogorama]

For all John's insistence that he didn't skimp on the OL by design, it hasn't really hurt us. "What could have been" - you mean other than a 53-21 W/L record for Russ, one of the league's best offenses and running games, four consecutive playoff appearances, two NFC championships, and a Super Bowl?

Good quarterbacks have been proving for over a decade now that they can make an offensive line less important. Peyton Manning proved it, and he has nowhere the mobility of Russ. Pete also acknowledged that the style of football they were playing was magnifying the pressure on Russ, and once they changed it up midseason last year, things got a LOT better without any changes in personnel. In fact, we lost Rawls and still fought through.

I'm happy to improve on any position, don't get me wrong. I just think it's a little out-of-perspective to worry about a position Wilson has proven he doesn't need to be spectacular, in order for HIM to succeed.

I'm sorry but all this talk about we don't need a good offensive line because we have a mobile QB is just ridiculous. Maybe it doesn't need to be "spectacular" as you say but we won 10 games last year and except for a blown call and a couple of fortunate circumstances it could have easily been an 8 - win season. Why do you think we can't beat the Rams? That hasn't been lost on Arizona either who went out and got a top pass rusher like the Rams have. Keep playing that idea that the O-line isn't important and we will be right back where we were before this run.

 

[Overseasfan]

In the salary cap era it's impossible to have no weak points and if you have to choose a unit to be a bit qorse than the rest it's either going to be OL or LB and since we are a defense first team the choice was easy. Not like we didn't have plenty of success with the formula.

 

[dogorama]

In the salary cap era it's impossible to have no weak points and if you have to choose a unit to be a bit qorse than the rest it's either going to be OL or LB and since we are a defense first team the choice was easy. Not like we didn't have plenty of success with the formula.

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

We are ALL hoping this line is better this year because as they go - so goes our season.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

In the salary cap era it's impossible to have no weak points and if you have to choose a unit to be a bit qorse than the rest it's either going to be OL or LB and since we are a defense first team the choice was easy. Not like we didn't have plenty of success with the formula.

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

We are ALL hoping this line is better this year because as they go - so goes our season.

I like you. Hon, when you have Montana questioning your roll you have hit the big time. Negative Nelly level that is. Relax a little and accept the 14-2 season with the fact that Arizona, Carolina and Los Angeles are going to be put in their place. :17:

 

[dogorama]

In the salary cap era it's impossible to have no weak points and if you have to choose a unit to be a bit qorse than the rest it's either going to be OL or LB and since we are a defense first team the choice was easy. Not like we didn't have plenty of success with the formula.

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

We are ALL hoping this line is better this year because as they go - so goes our season.

I like you. Hon, when you have Montana questioning your roll you have hit the big time. Negative Nelly level that is. Relax a little and accept the 14-2 season with the fact that Arizona, Carolina and Los Angeles are going to be put in their place. :17:

Negative? Not me, realistic maybe. You see, you can't know where you are going until you know where you are, and all the wishful thinking in the world can't help you w/that.

Guarded optimism, that's my mantra until I have seen a few games.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

In the salary cap era it's impossible to have no weak points and if you have to choose a unit to be a bit qorse than the rest it's either going to be OL or LB and since we are a defense first team the choice was easy. Not like we didn't have plenty of success with the formula.

As we have lost offensive linemen so have our wins diminished. Last year we barely beat a Romo-less 4-win team and only beat a terrible Detroit team because of a blown call. Add to that wins over a 3-win Brown's team quarterbacked by a juiced-up Johnny Manziel, a win over a 5-win Raven's team, a win over a miserable 5-win Bear's team quarterbacked by Jimmy Clausen, 2 wins over an awful 5-win 49ers team, and 2 losses to a 7-win Ram's team who only had seven wins because they beat us twice!

The win over Minnesota was w/o their best starters on defense and the win over Arizona was in week 17 when everything was already settled. As far as I can tell our only quality win was against Pittsburgh and that was a shoot-out 39-30.

We are ALL hoping this line is better this year because as they go - so goes our season.

I like you. Hon, when you have Montana questioning your roll you have hit the big time. Negative Nelly level that is. Relax a little and accept the 14-2 season with the fact that Arizona, Carolina and Los Angeles are going to be put in their place. :17:

Negative? Not me, realistic maybe. You see, you can't know where you are going until you know where you are, and all the wishful thinking in the world can't help you w/that.

Guarded optimism, that's my mantra until I have seen a few games.

I get you. I disagree with you but you're right we need to see some games to really know what's up. I just decided to be on the bus before it got crowded like 2013. :17:

 

[dogorama]

I get you. I disagree with you but you're right we need to see some games to really know what's up.

Don't mistake my position as that I don't think these guys can be good, Ifedi looks like a future star, Gilliam might be pretty good too, and Evans has declared that he's still the best guard in the league. You have to love that attitude but the center position adventures and the way they let the O-line get away from them has to have you shaking your head. The rest of the team looks awesome, and we are definitely deeper than we have been at anytime since '13.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I get you. I disagree with you but you're right we need to see some games to really know what's up.

Don't mistake my position as that I don't think these guys can be good, Ifedi looks like a future star, Gilliam might be pretty good too, and Evans has declared that he's still the best guard in the league. You have to love that attitude but the center position adventures and the way they let the O-line get away from them last year has to have you shaking your head. The rest of the team looks awesome, and we are definitely deeper than we have been at anytime since '13.

Center is the question, I think the other positions will be fine. I also know you're on my side but you want a little discussion. You're bored and I'm right with you. I'm waiting for Miami to start wearing my jerseys again. :irishdrinkers: