Read Option : the 49ers version

[SalishHawkFan]

I'm puzzled. There's several niner fans, a Ram fan, roland....and it's intelligent reading?!? Okay, I've obviously been reading this forum too much cuz I'm having some wierd dream. When I wake up this thread will certainly not really be here.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Take it easy with what posters you lump into the dumb and/or enemy category, Salish.

all in jest, Roland, all in jest. Especially the intelligent part {j/k}

 

[RolandDeschain]

No!

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.

 

[Scottemojo]

What makes the 49er version of the Pistol/RO anymore different than our version? Or more important...dangerous?

The fact that they rolled it out 2-3 weeks earlier or the fact Wilson can run a Westcoast offense better than Krapperdink? Seriously answer that question or the whole question is moot.

They run a far different version. To my eye, Kaepernick makes his option decisions far faster than RW. They run formations with up to 4 runners in a diamond formation (including Kaep). They run the pistol with heavy sets. They run that look with a 300 pound DT as a lead blocker. The pistol in particular is a staple for Kaepernick, without it he loses a lot of his advantages.

They had Kaepernick taking pistol formation snaps in pretty much every game, even the ones Alex started. Kaepernick ran the pistol at Nevada to the tune of about 14,000 total yards.

Why is it more dangerous? Ask the Packers. They had a piss poor plan and it killed them.

Ours is a changeup. Russell never ran it before last year. Russell holds the ball til the last second, there were a lot of precarious moments as he waited a defensive end out, nearly resulting in a half dozen fumbles. Still, fail to plan for it and die, just ask the Bears and Bills.

Who had what first is immaterial, as are any comparisons to who runs the WCO better.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I do agree that we use it as a change up and Wilson is far less likely to keep the ball preferring to either pass out of it or hand off far more than Kaepernick. And Green Bay? You couldn't have a gameplan any worse than what they did. I am sure that isn't going to happen again though, they had all offseason and tape to study and surely they will have figured out a better way to go.

 

[Scottemojo]

You asked for the differences, I gave them. You couldn't have a worse gameplan for stopping Wilson than the Bills did, as well. Kaepernick passes from th epistol plenty, in fact it is his greatest strength as a passer, allowing him to play action without taking his eyes off the defense.

In fact, I would argue that for Kaepernick in particular, the Pistol is vital to his success. You know how the read option freezes a DE? The play action from the pistol does the same thing to a peeking linebacker or DB, but unlike a traditional play action where the QB has his back to the D and has to re-establish eye contact. Kaepernick gets to watch it all unfold, and this is the pass that Kaepernick is making his big plays on as of now. Also, the debate about Kaep being a one read guy is really centered around this play, it is the look he most consistently makes that 2nd stacked read from. If the safety moves down, he goes over the top to the deep route, if the safety stays deep, he drops it in over the LB on the shorter route runner, and if both look covered he has an even shorter option. That isn't exact, but it should give you an idea of what they are doing passing from the pistol. From under center play action, Kaepernick was far more likely to make the one read and run if it was not there. Point is, that pistol pass set lets him treat the safety just like he treats the DE on a running read option, while never taking his eyes off the defense.

Seriously, watch a game where you just observe the way a QB does things differently when he never takes his eyes off the D vs a true play action.

Our passes from the pistol were not that complex. It is primarily one target (like the pass to Rice to win the CHI game). Which is to be expected, like noted, Wilson was new to RO and pistol. Conversely, Wilson was far more likely to make multiple reads from play action, which makes sense considering his background in college.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

The 49'ers line is scary good, as we found out last year at their place.

The good news is that I think RW is a far more well rounded QB than Kaepernicknack. Teams are REALLY going to load up the box to stop the niners run game and read option, and force Kaepernick to beat them in the air. IMO this is the main reason I picked the Hawks to win the West. Wilson > Kaep.

Statistically this isn't true. It's more divided and depends on the criteria you're looking at. Colin DID beat teams through the air. Repeatedly. Wilson is statistically better at passing out of the pocket than Kaep, but Kaep is statistically better in the pocket (numbers don't lie my friend). Why people think Colin can't pass the ball from the pocket is astounding to me. Here are what the FACTS say:


Total QBR in the pocket:

Colin Kaepernick: 83.0

Russell Wilson: 77.0


Both are good in the pocket, but Kaepernick is better.


Now, contrary to popular belief by nearly everyone, Wilson is much better passing OUTSIDE the pocket (in fact he's a freaking stud at it).

Total QBR OUTSIDE the pocket:

Russell Wilson: 62.5

Colin Kaepernick: 15.6



The FACTS say that Colin is better in the pocket, but Wilson is MUCH better outside of it. You might think that puts Russell over the edge. I'd say no, since Total QBR combined gives Colin the edge.

Colin: 76.8
Russell: 69.6 *(note that both of these are PRO BOWL caliber numbers)

So why does Colin get the NUMERICAL edge if Russell is WAY better at passing from outside the pocket? Simple: quarterbacks in the NFL have to be able to pass in the pocket MUCH more often. BOTH of these guys are very good at it. I still say overall the numbers indicate that this is a wash (since there are non-quantifiable factors). You can't really say who is better based on the objective facts. Only subjectivity can determine a victor.

Good read. So did SEA avoid succumbing to this o-line in week 16 because we got out in front so quickly and didn't have to deal with as much run/option play?

SF started the game a bit cute with passing. They tried to set up the line trap, but it didn't work. I think communication was too difficult for them that game.

Truth is, no option QB had a great game vs the Hawks last year. Not Kaep, Newton, or RGIII (though he started strong for sure). Those offenses combined for 30 points total.

Kaepernick is no more an option QB than Wilson is. See above:

The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown

Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.

That started against Green Bay. For the most part, it was the same formations. And I know you disagree, but tell me: did you watch every single 49er game last year? I didn't think so. Fact is neither the Pistol formation nor the read-option were used very much prior to the playoffs. MAYBE twice a game, and that's just an average.

 

[Marvin49]

Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:

Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want.

The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you.

They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!

Not every team has the Seahawk secondary.

 

[Marvin49]

You asked for the differences, I gave them. You couldn't have a worse gameplan for stopping Wilson than the Bills did, as well. Kaepernick passes from th epistol plenty, in fact it is his greatest strength as a passer, allowing him to play action without taking his eyes off the defense.

In fact, I would argue that for Kaepernick in particular, the Pistol is vital to his success. You know how the read option freezes a DE? The play action from the pistol does the same thing to a peeking linebacker or DB, but unlike a traditional play action where the QB has his back to the D and has to re-establish eye contact. Kaepernick gets to watch it all unfold, and this is the pass that Kaepernick is making his big plays on as of now. Also, the debate about Kaep being a one read guy is really centered around this play, it is the look he most consistently makes that 2nd stacked read from. If the safety moves down, he goes over the top to the deep route, if the safety stays deep, he drops it in over the LB on the shorter route runner, and if both look covered he has an even shorter option. That isn't exact, but it should give you an idea of what they are doing passing from the pistol. From under center play action, Kaepernick was far more likely to make the one read and run if it was not there. Point is, that pistol pass set lets him treat the safety just like he treats the DE on a running read option, while never taking his eyes off the defense.

Seriously, watch a game where you just observe the way a QB does things differently when he never takes his eyes off the D vs a true play action.

Our passes from the pistol were not that complex. It is primarily one target (like the pass to Rice to win the CHI game). Which is to be expected, like noted, Wilson was new to RO and pistol. Conversely, Wilson was far more likely to make multiple reads from play action, which makes sense considering his background in college.

I agree with most of this. The only part I would disagree with is the comment that the Pistol being vital to his success....that is if you are saying he couldn't be successful without it. The problem with that reasoning is that he had alot of success before the 49ers started running the Pistol on a large % of his plays.

Is he better out of the Pistol? Absolutely. I thinks that's a function of 1) having ALOT more experience in that offense, and 2) Really good play design out of that formation (most of which you have detailed yourself) creating easy reads and wide open recievers. I think Kaep has all the tools to be an incredible QB, but I also recognize that his OC and HC have done a great job in putting him in positions to succeed. He is STILL a raw player. He was nowhere near as polished as Wilson coming out of college.

 

[Scottemojo]

@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success. Your team loses their run advantage from the gun, and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.

When I watch a Niners game, the first 15 plays on offense are so interesting. Harbaugh tries to give every look, even the ones Kaepernick is not good at, to the defense. He will do traditional play action, drop back from center, pistol pass, pistol pass with a full eyes off D play fake, pistol handoff, pistol option read, full gun pass and run. I imagine in those early snaps they are looking at the 2 or 3 seconds after snap pictures to see how the D-end, safeties, and middle backers are reacting differently to all the variety of looks to see what they can exploit. As of yet in his young career, it's between the numbers that Kaepernick is at his best, and it's the defenders between the numbers that are doing the most staring at Kaepernick.

 

[Marvin49]

@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success. Your team loses their run advantage from the gun, and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.

When I watch a Niners game, the first 15 plays on offense are so interesting. Harbaugh tries to give every look, even the ones Kaepernick is not good at, to the defense. He will do traditional play action, drop back from center, pistol pass, pistol pass with a full eyes off D play fake, pistol handoff, pistol option read, full gun pass and run. I imagine in those early snaps they are looking at the 2 or 3 seconds after snap pictures to see how the D-end, safeties, and middle backers are reacting differently to all the variety of looks to see what they can exploit. As of yet in his young career, it's between the numbers that Kaepernick is at his best, and it's the defenders between the numbers that are doing the most staring at Kaepernick.

I think we are watching an interview with Kaep talking to Marshall Faulk and running wild with it a bit. He explained the advantages of the Pistol and everyone seems to read into that what they want to believe...IE, he can't take his eyes off the D. As for what he's "admitted", he says he needs to improve at EVERYTHING. He works hard in the weight room. He works hard on the track. He works hard in the classroom. When anyone has asked him what he's trying to improve on this year, he always answers "Everything".

The Pistol is an advantage because it gives him an extra fraction of a second to keep his eyes on the read (while also being able to run power), but that doesn't mean he's incapable of turning his back to the D on a hard play fake and being successful. Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to sell him as a perfect QB who doesn't need any work. He still is raw in some aspects of his game and the OC has put him in some very good positions to succeed...I'm just sayin' its not all about the pistol.

He ran MANY plays from conventional sets and did just fine...particularly in the regular season.

Is he better in the Pistol? Yes. He has much more experience there and the set itself is pretty damn good which is why its making the rounds through college football and the NFL. My only issue is the assumption that Kaep would have been screwed without it. I think that's inaccurate.

 

[candyman4881]

Here is my take on stopping the read option:

A big part of last year was the rebirth of the pistol/read option offense orchestrated by a new class of QBs in the league in RGIII, Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, and to a lesser extent Cam Newton.

Here are a few good articles on stopping the read option:
http://mmqb.si.com/2013/07/26/derek-mas ... ad-option/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1638 ... ead-option

I know the 2nd one is a Bleacher Report, but it is still a very good read.

Basically, it boils down to two things- discipline and preventing the "read"

Discipline is in line with the "gap" assignments for the interior line and outside containment by the DEs and linebackers - this is a coaching objective

How do you prevent the read? Two ways- interior pressure and as the Bleacher Report article states, do what is called a "scrap exchange", which is basically putting an OLB on assignment to the QB, preferably a quick OLB that has fast closing speed.

 

[Shadowhawk]

The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.

I remember watching that game and wondering if Green Bay thought Alex Smith was still starting. Kaepernick got all of the attention, but I have never seen a team get so badly outcoached as the Packers were that night.

 

[SilkMonkey]

The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.

 

[RolandDeschain]

The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.

Kaepernick promised Dom Capers he'd do a nude photo shoot if he had his defense block FOR Kaepernick instead of against him.

 

[Manbearpig99]

The GB defense was either the worst possible scheme or just atrocious ugly sloppy execution. Probably some combination of both.

Kaepernick promised Dom Capers he'd do a nude photo shoot if he had his defense block FOR Kaepernick instead of against him.

Sounds like someone has a crush on Kaep.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

@5 Golden rings: Don't parse words. Kaepernick runs a read option, as does RGIII, Newton, and Wilson. My including Kaep in that is no slight, but I dunno, if it is important to you that I be wrong about something, run with it. I will say Pistol QB to please your picky ass.

At Marvin. Without the pistol last year Kaep would have been boned. It was vital to his success.

Ah, so whence came the success in his regular season starts in which the Pistol formation was used maybe two or three times per game? I am quite sure you barely watched any 49ers games last year except in the postseason and against Seattle. You pretty much prove it with this.

Your team loses their run advantage from the gun,

Meanwhile Kaep was tremendously successful passing from the regular gun.

and from under center Kaep simply cannot keep his eyes on the D while faking a handoff. He himself has said he needs to get better at exactly that very thing. Those things are not meant as insults, they are just facts.

But you misunderstand them. Kaep is a perfectionist. His "weakest" areas AREN'T weaknesses in the sense you think. Evidence? Watch some regular season 49er games in which Kaepernick did OUTSTANDING in play action passes from traditional formations. Case in point (took two seconds on youtube because unlike you I watched every 49er game and know where to look):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iMLA1_q2xw&t=1m34s
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=3m21s
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=4m58s

Watch how he launches the ball with a defender in his face, too (slightly different topic, but still). Look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Tm0niuMho&t=2m52s



I guess what I'm saying is that you're messing up the relative scales. Kaepernick is really, REALLY good at the read-option and exploiting the Pistol formation. By necessity that means he is BETTER at that then play-action from under center. IT DOES NOT FOLLOW then that Kaepernick is bad at play-action from under center. In fact, he isn't. He's pretty decent at it. Not the best, but good.

You might also think that because he is (let's face it) the VERY BEST QB in the NFL in the Pistol that he therefore can't pass from under center. False. He is actually extremely good at passing on 3 and 5 step drops. Much better than Alex Smith ever has been.






Here are weaknesses 49ER fans, fans who have watched every game (unlike you), would list (and I'll throw in Wilson comparisons, too):

1. Unlike Wilson, when things go terribly wrong Colin has had trouble improvising. When the snap is low, for example, he has thrown picks or fumbled (case in point, bad snap against the Saints led to his first interception; low snaps against New England led to fumbles).

2. Unlike Wilson, when timing is messed up Kaep has a tendency to force things that aren't there (case in point, pick six against Green Bay).

3. Awkward delivery.

4. Unlike Wilson, he throws risky passes. Often times his arm strength is 96-97 Favre-like, so it works, but it makes us 49er fans uneasy at times the way he trusts his arm so much in tight coverage.


But play-action under center? He might consider it one of his weak spots, but he has NOT struggled with that in games. He has done as well or better than Alex Smith did at that.

 

[Scottemojo]

He lines up in a short gun (about 4 yards back) with a single back behind him AKA pistol a lot more than 2-3 times per game. I did watch them all 49er games. He also lines up in the gun (about 5 yards back) a ton.

If there was a formation he rarely lines up in, it would be under center. In fact, in the SB they pretty much abandoned all but the pistol and the gun. We can argue about that one yard if you wish, my point is that he is a far better passing QB when his drop back and play fake allow him to keep his eyes on the defense.

Why do you think they call traditional play action only about 3 or 4 times per game for him? Because he is so good at it?

Also curious, while Kaep excels at the pistol, Gore suffered terribly from the formation.