Ok....the lateral????

HawkFreak

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Let's say the ball is clearly initially thrown backwards and a hurricane force gust of wind suddenly changes the backward direction and pushes it beyond the initial release point and into the arms of a receiver. What say you NFL rule?
 

sutz

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Keep going. We can get this thread about nothing to 5 pages yet.

:snack:
 

mikeak

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onanygivensunday":1z064gnj said:
The NFL rule is poorly written and should be changed to better align with the Rugby rule.

.

No -- the rule is very clearly written. There is nothing ambiguous about it.

You may separately dislike the rule from a scientific standpoint. That would make it a bad rule in your opinion.

Kind of like not liking that if you dive at a QB you get flagged or if you get a late hit on the QB it can negate an interception even though they were unrelated

Those are beliefs that the rule is bad - not that the rule is written poorly
 

FidelisHawk

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mikeak":2135x1ta said:
onanygivensunday":2135x1ta said:
The NFL rule is poorly written and should be changed to better align with the Rugby rule.

.

No -- the rule is very clearly written. There is nothing ambiguous about it.

You may separately dislike the rule from a scientific standpoint. That would make it a bad rule in your opinion.

Kind of like not liking that if you dive at a QB you get flagged or if you get a late hit on the QB it can negate an interception even though they were unrelated

Those are beliefs that the rule is bad - not that the rule is written poorly

I find this discussion interesting in the fact that, as fans, we will complain about referees who must make judgement calls on fouls, where the rule is ambiguous, Pass Interference, Illegal Pick, Holding and others.

Then complain a rule, that is very specific and clear, should be changed to make it more ambiguous and force the referee to make another judgement call.

Of course ALL rules, fouls, judgments, and opinions that go against the Seahawks are, by definition, BAD.
 

Diezel Dawg

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Who fricken cares. The Eagles were stupid not to challenge. In real time it looked legal, you can only tell in slow motion. Game, set, match Hawks

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Hasselbeck

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We got away with one, but Pederson should have challenged. Sorry not sorry *shrug*
 

Our Man in Chicago

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The play in question was clearly a forward pass as defined by current rules, and the Seahawks thus benefited from the lack of an infraction call. This is not seriously in question. The rules governing a lateral, however, should be subject for reassessment in light of current technological realities.

The lateral option exists in order to differentiate from a forward or shovel pass. In the NFL, a lateral when the pitcher is in motion is generally a play-extender as opposed to a play solely in its own right; pro defenses are too fast for most hook-and-ladder plays and direct yardage would otherwise be negative or essentially neutral. In this way, the spirit of the lateral play — on display this past Sunday night — is the same as it was when the game began.

If the play in question had featured a hoofing Charlie Conerly tossing a ball to a trailing Alex Webster in 1955, it would have been a clear lateral to the eyes of all viewers, relative and absolute velocity be damned. Conerly's intent would have been the same as Wilson's. But we don't live in 1955. In that year, Jackie Robinson was tagged out at home by Yogi Berra.

The lateral rule as it exists fails to take into account the reality of a player in motion, and this, as has been stated upthread, is exacerbated by modern replay technology. As few appreciate a baseball manager challenging a stolen base on the pedantic notion that a runner might have left a bag for a microsecond while a tag was applied, rules should be changed to suit the game being played the "right way."

I'll offer this: the majority of all pitcher-in-motion laterals in NFL history have also been "illegal forward passes." What should take precedence for a rules-committee reassessment are these two factors: if the pitch receiver (Davis) was clearly trailing the pitcher (Wilson) when the pitch occurred, and that the pitch itself was not a forward motion.
 

Barakas

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Sgt Largent":13pt72dg said:
https://youtu.be/box08lq9ylg

Rugby did all the research for us. Not saying this is how the rule is written, but this is how I've seen it interpreted in all my years watching and playing, and in my opinion, how it definitely should be defined in American Football as well.

That video does an excellent job of describing the situation. Unfortunately it's not in alignment with the NFL rules.

I'm seeing a rule change coming up for next year!! Make the determination based on the positioning of the players not the stationary field.
 

GeekHawk

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MD5eahawks":3pzfb1xz said:
<snip>
I can hear the debate now.

It's ruled relative to the players positions to one another.

No, it's ruled by the balls path relative to the ground.

:snack:

This is where Neil DeGrasse Tyson comes in. In physics it's called 'frame of reference'. For instance, if you're in a car moving at 30 mph, and behind you is a car moving at 35 mph, then in your frame of reference the car behind you is moving forward at 5 mph (and the rest of the world is moving backwards at 30 mph). In the car behind you's frame of reference, you're moving backwards at 5 mph and the rest of the world is moving backwards at 35 mph. From the frame of reference of an observer standing in one place, you are moving forward at 30 mph, the other car is moving forward at 35 mph, and the rest of the world is standing still. (Which it isn't, because the earth is spinning on it's axis, and also orbiting the sun, etc.)

From RW's frame of reference, the pass was moving backwards. From an observer's frame of reference, maybe it wasn't. And since the rule doesn't address any frame of reference, therein lies the controversy in this thread.

So yes, you can hear the debate now. In fact you have, for several pages.
 

Our Man in Chicago

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An additional factor is this: NFL viewing audiences are clearly swayed by NFL broadcast crew opinions and hyperbole. If the "Fail Mary" had not been exaggerated as "the absolute worst call in NFL history," most fans wouldn't have water-coolered it thus on Tuesday morning.

Likewise, this play — had it not been scrutinized and slo-moed to death at the time — would have been accepted by everyone as a clear lateral-intent and a great impromptu play by both Wilson and Davis.

Sidebar: Davis's role in this play is totally underrated.
 

FidelisHawk

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Our Man in Chicago":1ernylop said:
The play in question was clearly a forward pass as defined by current rules, and the Seahawks thus benefited from the lack of an infraction call. This is not seriously in question. The rules governing a lateral, however, should be subject for reassessment in light of current technological realities.

The lateral option exists in order to differentiate from a forward or shovel pass. In the NFL, a lateral when the pitcher is in motion is generally a play-extender as opposed to a play solely in its own right; pro defenses are too fast for most hook-and-ladder plays and direct yardage would otherwise be negative or essentially neutral. In this way, the spirit of the lateral play — on display this past Sunday night — is the same as it was when the game began.

If the play in question had featured a hoofing Charlie Conerly tossing a ball to a trailing Alex Webster in 1955, it would have been a clear lateral to the eyes of all viewers, relative and absolute velocity be damned. Conerly's intent would have been the same as Wilson's. But we don't live in 1955. In that year, Jackie Robinson was tagged out at home by Yogi Berra.

The lateral rule as it exists fails to take into account the reality of a player in motion, and this, as has been stated upthread, is exacerbated by modern replay technology. As few appreciate a baseball manager challenging a stolen base on the pedantic notion that a runner might have left a bag for a microsecond while a tag was applied, rules should be changed to suit the game being played the "right way."

I'll offer this: the majority of all pitcher-in-motion laterals in NFL history have also been "illegal forward passes." What should take precedence for a rules-committee reassessment are these two factors: if the pitch receiver (Davis) was clearly trailing the pitcher (Wilson) when the pitch occurred, and that the pitch itself was not a forward motion.

Okay, this seems like a good option, but let me play devil’s advocate.

As I understand the rule change as you suggest, would be an addition, for laterals in the field of play, and read something like (correct me if I’m wrong please); a lateral is legal if Player A starts his lateral, or releases the ball, to Player B AND Player B is behind Player A at that time.

Under this scenario Player A could lateral forward as long as Player B is behind him when he starts/finishes his lateral, provided Player B is fast enough to catch up to the “now legal” forward lateral...
 

Hawkstorian

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OK I just finished my exhaustive review of every Seahawks play in history, and they have been totally jobbed by the refs 463 times. This counts all playoff and Superbowl games.

Seahawk opponents have been jobbed just 397 times.

We still have some catching up to do.
 

Our Man in Chicago

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FidelisHawk":3i96fp90 said:
Okay, this seems like a good option, but let me play devil’s advocate.

As I understand the rule change as you suggest, would be an addition, for laterals in the field of play, and read something like (correct me if I’m wrong please); a lateral is legal if Player A starts his lateral, or releases the ball, to Player B AND Player B is behind Player A at that time.

Under this scenario Player A could lateral forward as long as Player B is behind him when he starts/finishes his lateral, provided Player B is fast enough to catch up to the “now legal” forward lateral...

Our Man in Chicago":3i96fp90 said:
What should take precedence for a rules-committee reassessment are these two factors: if the pitch receiver (Davis) was clearly trailing the pitcher (Wilson) when the pitch occurred, and that the pitch itself was not a forward motion.

I'd tried to account for your loophole with the (bold) section above. A lateral should always be a backwards-toss gesture in keeping with the spirit of the play.
 

FidelisHawk

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Our Man in Chicago":2lh3eygo said:
FidelisHawk":2lh3eygo said:
Okay, this seems like a good option, but let me play devil’s advocate.

As I understand the rule change as you suggest, would be an addition, for laterals in the field of play, and read something like (correct me if I’m wrong please); a lateral is legal if Player A starts his lateral, or releases the ball, to Player B AND Player B is behind Player A at that time.

Under this scenario Player A could lateral forward as long as Player B is behind him when he starts/finishes his lateral, provided Player B is fast enough to catch up to the “now legal” forward lateral...

Our Man in Chicago":2lh3eygo said:
What should take precedence for a rules-committee reassessment are these two factors: if the pitch receiver (Davis) was clearly trailing the pitcher (Wilson) when the pitch occurred, and that the pitch itself was not a forward motion.

I'd tried to account for your loophole with the (bold) section above. A lateral should always be a backwards-toss gesture in keeping with the spirit of the play.

Oops, missed the last part “ the pitch itself was not a forward motion.” of course that’s what we’re debating now. The lateral in question WAS pitched backwards, while going forward at the same time.

I’m just not sure how you compose a rule that corrects both possibilities at the same time without having an “impartial third party" decide.

And, I believe the NFL has enough “impartial third party decision rules" on the books already.
 

mikeak

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^ yeah that will be a fine replay review......should only take 20 minutes to determine in cases where the ball is barely pitched backwards

The rule is fine, we got lucky, we won the game - next time the RB needs to trail more

And yes that the RB stayed with the play and made himself available is very underrated. I think we are used to watching pitch plays from college so we don't think about it the same way but it was not drawn up here. Great heads-up play
 

seahawksny

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Legal
Over
done
on to next

Seattle won on the merit of their play. Not because of a missed or made call. One call doesnt decide a game.
I dont mean to shoot the OP, but it really irks me how the NFL has become a league where games are won and lost simply because of refs. They are human too. Seattle won because they outplayed Phiilly. Not because it was a lateral pass or not.

We got the call- it was the right call.

On to JAX
 

Our Man in Chicago

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mikeak":2g5ma63r said:
^ yeah that will be a fine replay review......should only take 20 minutes to determine in cases where the ball is barely pitched backwards

The rule as currently stated undergoes the same degree of replay scrutiny.
 

253hawk

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Our Man in Chicago":2clqutrp said:
I'd tried to account for your loophole with the (bold) section above. A lateral should always be a backwards-toss gesture in keeping with the spirit of the play.

But the word 'lateral' literally means...

adjective
1. of, at, toward, or from the side or sides.

noun
1. a side part of something

verb
1. throw (a football) in a sideways or backward direction.


If it's not sideways, it's just a pitch, toss, or shovel pass.
 

StoneCold

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KitsapGuy":3cyf6ab7 said:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/938155412347588610[/tweet]

Ha, just came to post this. In this video the point of release and the point of first contact appear to be only a matter of inches. I'll have to watch my recording of this play in slo mo. Even if challenged it may have been difficult to overturn as they need incontrovertible evidence.

Unfortunately no Shcroedingers cat was mentioned.
 

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