MacDonald vs Johnson decision time

[olyfan63]

Offensive HCs go to SBs while developing young QBOTFs consistently and well.

Defensive HCs watch the SB from the couch while praying that their OC doesn't get sniped so their young QBOTF doesn't have to learn 4 systems in 4 years.

The structural advantages of Offensive HCs are so great that it would be a huge mistake for JS to hire a Defensive HC.

The NFL will eventually cycle back to Defensive HC advantage. But not in time to make a Defensive HC hire now make any sense at all - unless you're hoping for another 5 years of high-floor, low-ceiling Seahawks teams.

I totally get that rationale. That's why the Seahawks are looking at Kafka, for his work in developing Patrick Mahomes. Also Ben Johnson helped Jared Goff grow into a legit top-10, top-5 maybe, QB. So both guys fit exactly the profile you describe.

The other problem is the Hawks have the 49ers and Rams in the division, Shanahan and McVay, who beat Carroll's Seahawks like a drum the last few years, repeatedly exploiting the middle of the field and Carroll's soft-zone defensive approach. Macdonald's Ravens are pretty much the only team to have even slowed down the 49ers and Rams. Not to mention dominated the Lions and Seahawks offenses too. The Ravens D rattled Brock Purdy and manhandled the 49er offense despite the presence of Trent Williams. So I'm on the Macdonald train despite the perfectly solid rationale you expressed above. I'd rather stop those offenses and take our chances on lucking into a good offensive side. I was mostly happy with Shane Waldron, and he certainly wasn't unemployed for very long.

I would also love to see a coach who adopts and extends the best parts of the Pete Carroll culture. IMO Carroll's culture is a huge part of why the Seahawks had winning records last 2 years instead of 5-12 with Carroll's outdated schemes and poor choices in D-coordinators. (KNJ and Hurtt) The NFL "rule-changed-out" Pete's defensive scheme and he never really adapted to McVay and Shanahan style offenses.

It will be interesting to see what Schneider comes up with...

 

[Wheetie]

I just watched some MM press conferences, and also a Ravens beat writer talk about him on Brock and Salk. I honestly don't think he's ready to take on a HC position yet. Sure he's a brilliant defensive mind, but he seems a bit timid to me, and the beat writer certainly choae his words carefully when asked if he would endorse him for a HC position...just my take. Maybe it's age or experience or just being uncomfortable in a public spot light setting, but I question if he'd have the fortitude to command the full room at this point.

 

[renofox]

Great post. So if they go with Johnson, what do we do about the defense?

The same thing as all the other Offensive HCs - find the best damn DC we can. If he's not showing progress, move on ASAP.

Defense is schematically very simple to install compared to offense. A new DC can get his players 90%+ schooled on defense in one off-season and field an effective defense to start the regular season. The same cannot be said for a new OC.

As for the Seahawks this year? I'm hoping that's why they've been interviewing so many defensive coaches. Vrabel would be my choice, based on my limited knowledge, but I'm confident that there is at least one excellent candidate available.

For the foreseeable future, there will be plenty of DC candidates available every year if a change is needed.

 

[renofox]

Another solid @renofox

This is why I will be incredibly interested to watch the Lion's next year. Motivation and "Leaders of Men" type coaches drastically rely on their coordinators to achieve success. I like Dan Campbell, because, well, how can you not? However, he will be losing his talented young OC this year. Pierce in Oakland will likewise be interesting to watch if he loses Graham.

Look at Quinn when he lost Shanny. It's a complex balance. A ying yang if you will. Super savvy play callers need strong character motivators as assistant coaches and vice versa. I feel this way about McDaniels in Miami. He's a little too much "one of the boys". Players rally around a leader because he demands respect and believe he would be the first to jump in the foxhole, not because he's a smart, cool guy.

Great point. Johnson leaving means DQ is going to have to take a huge gamble on his next OC. I truly wish him all the luck in the world.

Relying on luck is the opposite if developing an effective strategy. Luck sometimes wins and strategy sometimes loses, but I've always been more successful with the latter.

 

[chris98251]

The same thing as all the other Offensive HCs - find the best damn DC we can. If he's not showing progress, move on ASAP.

Defense is schematically very simple to install compared to offense. A new DC can get his players 90%+ schooled on defense in one off-season and field an effective defense to start the regular season. The same cannot be said for a new OC.

As for the Seahawks this year? I'm hoping that's why they've been interviewing so many defensive coaches. Vrabel would be my choice, based on my limited knowledge, but I'm confident that there is at least one excellent candidate available.

For the foreseeable future, there will be plenty of DC candidates available every year if a change is needed.

Yeah available due to? We have seen the last few years what someone with a title can due, we are looking for someone that can actual execute that title with effect. That's a bit different.

 

[olyfan63]

Another solid @renofox

This is why I will be incredibly interested to watch the Lion's next year. Motivation and "Leaders of Men" type coaches drastically rely on their coordinators to achieve success. I like Dan Campbell, because, well, how can you not? However, he will be losing his talented young OC this year. Pierce in Oakland will likewise be interesting to watch if he loses Graham.

Look at Quinn when he lost Shanny. It's a complex balance. A ying yang if you will. Super savvy play callers need strong character motivators as assistant coaches and vice versa. I feel this way about McDaniels in Miami. He's a little too much "one of the boys". Players rally around a leader because he demands respect and believe he would be the first to jump in the foxhole, not because he's a smart, cool guy.

Me too, fascinating to see how Lions do next year w/no Ben Johnson. Man, they were so close this year! I like Campbell also.
Quinn got so screwed... losing that 28-3 Super Bowl then losing Shanahan, then players (Ryan) getting old and just not being able to recover mojo and not even fielding good defenses.

Whatever else about McDaniel, he's a hoot and his players play hard for him, and the Miami organization is willing to go get players for him. I just think there are a lot of different ways for coaches to be successful; Carroll had his way, and also I'm a fan of Frosty Westering.

Pete Carroll, leader of men, had his share of hard-ass, "bad-cop" coaches and coordinators that helped balance his Mr. Sunshine act. KNJ comes to mind, great as a LB coach, crap as a DC. Plus leaders on the field and in the locker room, Kam-Bam, Bobby, Sherman, Marshawn, Cliff, Doug, Russell, etc. This was the culture Carroll created, developing leaders at every level. Players WANTED to be in Seattle because of the environment Carroll created. That's the part I worry about, will the new HC be able to keep enough of the great parts of the PC culture, integrate them into his style, etc. I hope the new coach DOES use PC as an advisor on those things.

 

[renofox]

I totally get that rationale. That's why the Seahawks are looking at Kafka, for his work in developing Patrick Mahomes. Also Ben Johnson helped Jared Goff grow into a legit top-10, top-5 maybe, QB. So both guys fit exactly the profile you describe.

The other problem is the Hawks have the 49ers and Rams in the division, Shanahan and McVay, who beat Carroll's Seahawks like a drum the last few years, repeatedly exploiting the middle of the field and Carroll's soft-zone defensive approach. Macdonald's Ravens are pretty much the only team to have even slowed down the 49ers and Rams. Not to mention dominated the Lions and Seahawks offenses too. The Ravens D rattled Brock Purdy and manhandled the 49er offense despite the presence of Trent Williams. So I'm on the Macdonald train despite the perfectly solid rationale you expressed above. I'd rather stop those offenses and take our chances on lucking into a good offensive side. I was mostly happy with Shane Waldron, and he certainly wasn't unemployed for very long.

I would also love to see a coach who adopts and extends the best parts of the Pete Carroll culture. IMO Carroll's culture is a huge part of why the Seahawks had winning records last 2 years instead of 5-12 with Carroll's outdated schemes and poor choices in D-coordinators. (KNJ and Hurtt) The NFL "rule-changed-out" Pete's defensive scheme and he never really adapted to McVay and Shanahan style offenses.

It will be interesting to see what Schneider comes up with...

I see your point and agree there's a good chance that MM would be able to build a great defense that could make us more competitive in the Division. But, as you said, it would require some level of luck on the offensive side.

Is it easier to get that luck on the offensive side or the defensive side? I really don't know for sure. I just think it's easier to move on from DCs voluntarily in search of improvement, rather than have an OC sniped and have to start over on the side of the ball that takes longer to develop.

Both ways could work and both take a little luck. I just hope that JS has that luck on his side this year.

 

[renofox]

Yeah available due to? We have seen the last few years what someone with a title can due, we are looking for someone that can actual execute that title with effect. That's a bit different.

Annual availability of DCs is due to the current NFL trend of no hesitation in replacing HCs. When a HC is replaced the norm is to replace all the coordinators/assistants so the incoming HC can build his own staff.

That means plenty of experienced DCs to choose from every year, even before considering any of the 100+ position coaches available.

I just think it's much easier to find a suitable DC than a suitable OC.

 

[SeaWolv]

Defensive HCs watch the SB from the couch while praying that their OC doesn't get sniped so their young QBOTF doesn't have to learn 4 systems in 4 years.

The structural advantages of Offensive HCs are so great that it would be a huge mistake for JS to hire a Defensive HC.

This is exactly what JS was saying in his presser.

 

[chris98251]

I see your point and agree there's a good chance that MM would be able to build a great defense that could make us more competitive in the Division. But, as you said, it would require some level of luck on the offensive side.

Is it easier to get that luck on the offensive side or the defensive side? I really don't know for sure. I just think it's easier to move on from DCs voluntarily in search of improvement, rather than have an OC sniped and have to start over on the side of the ball that takes longer to develop.

Both ways could work and both take a little luck. I just hope that JS has that luck on his side this year.

Many times an offense needs a blocking scheme, a combination of WR's and RB's of a certain style and TE's to all be of a skill set plus a QB that can execute it, takes longer to build that, also on offense you have to think and react a lot more to a defense and how they are playing you. When you have all the pieces working that's when a defense is on it's heals and can't take away an aspect and shut you down.

Defense you can adjust much easier as you build what you want, don't have big bodies, stack the line until you do and take away their run, harass the QB with blitz's and stunts, disguise your alignments etc. Personnel on offense more often then not dictates what you are trying to do.

Once you have your pieces you can lock down a field against pretty much any offense. They have to beat you with flawless execution and read what your giving them continuously every play and then execute it. A long field in the NFL that is difficult to do.

 

[SeaWolv]

Kick. The. Damned. Field Goals.

I would think it would also make sense to do the opposite of what Campbell did and gone for it on the 4th down he chose to kick and kick on the other two. You're 4th and goal on the 3 at the end of the first half and your offense has been rolling. You go up 3 TD's and then when things tighten up in the second half you kick the FG's and win.

 

[James in PA]

I'll admit it: I've been flip flopping on Johnson and MacDonald. Newsflash: No coach's squad isn't going to show vulnerabilities. You can make pro and con arguments with every candidate. I'll just say that if John truly wanted an offensive minded HC, he needs to stick to his guns.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Have any of you guys considered if Johnson or MacDonald, do not have the head coach persona/personality or may be just be best as a coordinator?

I still think there is a coach out there that we are not speaking of that may be the next Seahawks coach.

And they are neither Ben Johnson or Mike MacDonald….

Something about this situation screams, SURPRISE!!!!!!

And you never saw it coming!!!!

 

[therealjohncarlson]

Have any of you guys considered if Johnson or MacDonald, do not have the head coach persona/personality or may be just be best as a coordinator?

I still think there is a coach out there that we are not speaking of that may be the next Seahawks coach.

And they are neither Ben Johnson or Mike MacDonald….

Something about this situation screams, SURPRISE!!!!!!

And you never saw it coming!!!!

I get the feeling the surprise would have come earlier in the process. It's getting pretty late in the game to be interviewing a random person none of us saw coming.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

I get the feeling the surprise would have come earlier in the process. It's getting pretty late in the game to be interviewing a random person none of us saw coming.

This is also true.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

None of are truly experts on this, but I would be pretty stoked about EITHER of these guys taking over as HC. But if it ends up being Quinn? Meh, enough the ties to Pete.

 

[cymatica]

Have any of you guys considered if Johnson or MacDonald, do not have the head coach persona/personality or may be just be best as a coordinator?

I still think there is a coach out there that we are not speaking of that may be the next Seahawks coach.

And they are neither Ben Johnson or Mike MacDonald….

Something about this situation screams, SURPRISE!!!!!!

And you never saw it coming!!!!

If that was the case, I don't know why John flies to Detroit and Baltimore to interview them both as soon as it's allowed

 

[SoulfishHawk]

This whole "no head coaching experience" crap is so lame and lazy. EVERY coach in the history of the NFL was a FIRST-TIME coach at some point. You gotta' start somewhere. This is the time for Macdonald or Johnson.

 

[GemCity]

Hopes it’s Johnson but, MM is the next logical choice.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

What will be really funny is that if they pick one of those two guys......and we STILL see a bunch of people complaining. I know it comes with the territory, but I would like to think that people would be pretty stoked with one of those two guys.

Just PLEASE no Quinn.